" I never knew you " --- Literal or Figurative

[Tina]

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Matthew 7:21-23

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’



When Jesus said the above, did He mean it literally or figuratively when He said "I never knew you" ?



:help

 

[smaller]

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Matthew 7:21-23

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’



When Jesus said the above, did He mean it literally or figuratively when He said "I never knew you" ?



:help

Here is a simple way to understand His Words you reference:

Matthew 16:23
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Mark 8:33
But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

IF Jesus said those Words to a disciple or a believer....which HE DID in Peter, then...

...WHOM 'may' He be addressing OTHER THAN the BELIEVER?

Jesus OFTEN addressed entities IN MAN that were NOT man.

IF you don't believe that BELIEVERS can 'have' such an entity upon them, turn to 2 Cor. 12:7 and see Paul had A DEVIL.

Were Jesus to speak to Paul, those same Words, He CAN and WILL address THAT DEVIL differently than the CHILD OF GOD, Paul.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Tina]

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Wow that's deep .....

Gee, will have to think about it .... So it was figurative ?

 

[Danus]

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When Jesus said the above, did He mean it literally or figuratively when He said "I never knew you" ?



:help

Jesus is speaking of ones judgment. If you believe as I do, that Jesus is God, then what he's saying here is that the individual who is facing such is not a Christian, never really accepted Christ, does not have a relationship with him.

Since Christ is God we know he knows the hearts of everyone so he can't mean it literally in that sense. It's more of an expression in the way it's written, but the meaning is literal. He's speaking of the false Christian. Those who simply claim Christ to make a buck, or follow a crowd, or for any other reason other than a personal relationship for their own salvation.

 

[Elijah674]

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Matthew 7:21-23

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


When Jesus said the above, did He mean it literally or figuratively when He said "I never knew you" ?


:help

I think to be consistant with His Matt. 4:4's Word, He was talking in for/known Truth + the fact that they had Been Born Again as in Lucifer perfect creation, & even the Heb. 6:6 ones. I Believe Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15 myself.

The Matt. 7 ones are NO run of the mill ones as 'i' see it! (compare Rev. 3:16-17 ALL SPEWED OUT Fold!)


--Elijah

 

[Forgiven83]

Considering that Matthew 7:15-20, speaks of false prophets, Christ is just giving us things, that people who don't truly know Him as personal Saviour, will say to Him during their judgment. Jesus is telling us that a true Christian will bare the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). The chiefest fruit is love (Galatians 5:14). What Jesus is also saying is that love is the work of faith (Galatians 5:6).

John 14:15
If ye love Me, keep my commandments.

John 15:12
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

I John 3:23-24
23) And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the Name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
24) And He that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.

When one reads the parable of the Sower in Luke 8:4-15, we see 3 bad seeds, and 1 good seed. IMO 2 of the 3 bad seed seem to us to be saved but God who knows the heart, can see these are not true believers whereas we can't.
Luke 8:15
But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
Notice Jesus tell us "bring forth fruit."

 

[Nathan]

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Matthew 7:21-23

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’



When Jesus said the above, did He mean it literally or figuratively when He said "I never knew you" ?



:help

Great question. He meant it literally. We know that there will be a separation. A division in two. Not three, not four, etc....just two. And here we see that the separation will be based upon Jesus "knowing" the individual partaking in the separation. Not works, not deeds, not anything but plain "knowing".

So it would be good to get a grip on this.

So what is this word "know"

ginōskō
1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
a) to become known
2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
a) to understand
b) to know
3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
4) to become acquainted with, to know

Here is something "deep" for you. lol. Just kidding, hopefully this will help you to understand the difference between knowing and really knowing.

(epignosis from verb epiginosko [word study] from epí = upon + ginosko = to know) is a strengthened or intensified form of "gnosis [word study]" and conveys the thought of a more full, larger and thorough knowledge. It also conveys the idea of an intimate and personal relationship than the simple term. Vine says the verb form epiginosko suggests generally a directive, a more special, recognition of the object known than ginosko.

See these people gnosis Christ. They knew about Him and He gnosis them. It is a surface 'understanding'. Do you know about the Queen of England? Probably. But have you ever talked with her, really got to know her? Probably not. So you do not know about her from experience, you know about her from reading and simple understanding.

That is where our English language lacks the ability to fully grasp subjects like this. Christ did not know them 'intimately'. That is why He used this word "ginosko". It is a word that Jewish people used for 'sexual intercourse'. It was an intimate, deep, close knowledge of them. They did not have the relationship that faith brings.

Does that help? I can feel another question coming.

 

[Elvispelvis]

The Narrow and Wide Gates
Matt 7
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

A Tree and Its Fruit

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Tina to grasp what is being said we should start in verse thirteen where we are told what the context of what is being said here. This is the actual "Judgment Seat Of Christ" . V 23 Christ literally says get away from me, this is not figurative He sends them into darkness literally.
We are told that the path is very, very, narrow and only a few find it. Not 600,000,000 like the churches would have you believe.
We are told it will be like the days of Noah when only eight people were saved and the 600,000,000 died. Notice it says wide is the path to destruction and the many go that way, dont they!
Verse 13 teaches that the gate is both small and narrow and few there be that find it!

Verse 15, 16, is a warning to study and learn as much as you can so false prophets can not fool you like all the others. We are given a way to tell if they are false prophets.

Psa 78:5 For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
So the bible says if they do not teach the law and the testimony there is no light in them.
Remember the new testament was not written in Jesus time so He meant the old testament, the law and the testimony.
, Jesus never ever, ever,, ever, quoted from the new testament.
All the apostles taught the old testament ,the law and the testimony. I f you do not know what it is you should find out .
V 20 by there fruits you will know them, RC's kill Protestants, Protestants kill RC's, Christians kill Jews, Jews kill Muslims all in the name of God. Wars and rumors of wars for the history of mankind killing each other in the name of God.
This is the fruit of man!!
V 21 We are told who these people are who say Lord, Lord did we not prophesy..........." in your name"

So if they taught in Jesus name they must be christians , correct, do you see it?

Jews would never prophecy in Jesus name, correct, they do not even believe in Him .
Muslims would not prophecy in Jesus name so it can not be MUslims.,

So this group yell out we have performed miracles in your name driven out demons in your name,
there is only one religion that would make these claims, that is christians.

In these verses we see the rejection of all the modern churches this is why ARMAGEDDON comes about and all the kings of the earth attack Jesus in Jerusalem.

1 Why do the nations conspire [fn1]

and the peoples plot in vain?

2 The kings of the earth take their stand

and the rulers gather together

against the Lord

and against his Anointed One. [fn2]

3 “Let us break their chains,” they say,

“and throw off their fetters.”

Jesus comes to judge the earth with fire and nuclear war.
Zech 14
12 This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 13 On that day men will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. Each man will seize the hand of another, and they will attack each other. 14 Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected—great quantities of gold and silver and clothing. 15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.

Modern churches are astray from the old testament.

 

[smaller]

.

Wow that's deep .....

Gee, will have to think about it .... So it was figurative ?

The devils that Jesus spoke to in mankind then will be spoken to again. You can take that to the spiritual bank.

That forthcoming speaking will be literal, and I might think that many a believer will be very surprised to hear those Words.

Jesus spoke to 'us,' His diciples, in FIGURES and PARABLES to describe those workers of iniquity who are WITHIN mankind for a very simple reason--->

The CAN'T BE SEEN.

But if you read HIS WORDS, you WILL see them and learn to perceive them, even today.

IF any believer does not believe this to be a factual possibility to themselves, they need only look at Paul's statements for himself in Romans 7:17-21 & 2 Cor. 12:7.

And a warning....that power will DENY to the end, that it is IN ANY. Do not be deceived.

enjoy!

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[ProphetMark]

But how can they prophesy in Jesus's name and cast out demons and perform miracles if they haven't got the Holy Spirit living in them? And how can Jesus not know people who have the Holy Spirit living in them?

 

[smaller]

But how can they prophesy in Jesus's name and cast out demons and perform miracles if they haven't got the Holy Spirit living in them? And how can Jesus not know people who have the Holy Spirit living in them?

Those facts obviously didn't stop Paul from casting out devils.

Paul had evil present and a DEVIL (see citings, Romans 7:17-25 and 2 Cor. 12:7) Yet he cast out devils AND The Spirit of Christ dwelt in him.

The notion that believers can not have devils is a demonic fallacy of major proportions. Those who believe themselves immune from EVIL PRESENT or sin which is OF THE DEVIL are factually under MAJOR deceptions of those workings.

I would go further to say that IF God has not allowed a believer to see these facts personally, that God has raised that vessel of dishonour OVER THEM in their own LUMP.

No believer can 'make' another believer see these matters-> because that other working is in control of such minds and can NOT be reasoned with from the scriptures.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Strangelove]

Jesus is speaking of ones judgment. If you believe as I do, that Jesus is God, then what he's saying here is that the individual who is facing such is not a Christian, never really accepted Christ, does not have a relationship with him.

Since Christ is God we know he knows the hearts of everyone so he can't mean it literally in that sense. It's more of an expression in the way it's written, but the meaning is literal. He's speaking of the false Christian. Those who simply claim Christ to make a buck, or follow a crowd, or for any other reason other than a personal relationship for their own salvation.

Great answer Danus. And I would just add that you can spot the false Christian BY THEIR FRUITS. Thats why He said ’depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

No true Christian who really was walking with Christ would practice lawlessness.

 

[savedbygrace57]

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Matthew 7:21-23

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’



When Jesus said the above, did He mean it literally or figuratively when He said "I never knew you" ?



:help

It means He never Loved them. They were never His People He came to save, His Sheep.

Matt 1:

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jn 10:

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

They were not of the foreknown of God rom 11:


1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

So His People and those He foreknew are the same.

Those in Matt 7 23 were not His People, hence, those He did not know and die for.

 

[Nathan]

It means He never Loved them. They were never His People He came to save, His Sheep.

If thats what it meant, then why didn't He say that?

 

[savedbygrace57]

If thats what it meant, then why didn't He say that?

If thats not what He meant, why does He not say that ?

Do you believe Jesus Christ would tell someone He Loved and gave His life for, I never knew you ?

 

[Nathan]

If thats not what He meant, why does He not say that ?

Do you believe Jesus Christ would tell someone He Loved and gave His life for, I never knew you ?

Well...that is what He said. So why would I not believe it? They obviously did not want His love or life, they just wanted to 'do things'. He wanted their love and to live in them, but they would not believe. Before He makes that statement He 'qualifies' it with the statement before.

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

What is the will of the Father?

1 Th 4:3-8 "For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. 7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness. 8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you."

Interestingly enough, the will of God is for man to not sin. That is why He sent His Spirit into our lives to train us in the way of holiness. But the person who disregards the fact that His will is for us to not sin, disregards not man, but the Spirit of God who is the one who is to teach us not to sin.

Therefore, He will say to those who do not 'believe' that we are to not sin, "I never knew you", because they try and 'do things' to be accepted, but outwardly (because of the inward lack of the Spirit) they work "lawlessness".

Why does He tell the ones that He offered love to, and even some that He did 'know' at least a little, "I never knew you"? That is a heart breaking thought. It really is. But it has been explained before by Ezekiel.

Eze 18:21-29 "But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? 24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? 26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die. 27 Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life. 28 Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? "

Hebrews explains it like this;

Heb 6:4-6 "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt."

See, those who turn away from God, even after receiving His love and forgiveness, put Him to an 'open shame'. Their belief in Christ becomes denial. Jesus said this concerning those who deny Him;

Mt 10:32-33 "So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven."

He will say this to them because #1, they never received the love of the truth. #2 those who have and turned it aside, which when they do they hold Christ to an "open shame" which is to "publicly profess" that Christ is not the only way, their once held faith will turn into nothingness and their remembrance in His book will be blotted out. It will be as if He never knew them. He will deny them.

 

[Elijah674]

Well...that is what He said. So why would I not believe it? They obviously did not want His love or life, they just wanted to 'do things'. He wanted their love and to live in them, but they would not believe. Before He makes that statement He 'qualifies' it with the statement before.

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

What is the will of the Father?

1 Th 4:3-8 "For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. 7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness. 8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you."

Interestingly enough, the will of God is for man to not sin. That is why He sent His Spirit into our lives to train us in the way of holiness. But the person who disregards the fact that His will is for us to not sin, disregards not man, but the Spirit of God who is the one who is to teach us not to sin.

Therefore, He will say to those who do not 'believe' that we are to not sin, "I never knew you", because they try and 'do things' to be accepted, but outwardly (because of the inward lack of the Spirit) they work "lawlessness".

Why does He tell the ones that He offered love to, and even some that He did 'know' at least a little, "I never knew you"? That is a heart breaking thought. It really is. But it has been explained before by Ezekiel.

Eze 18:21-29 "But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? 24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? 26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die. 27 Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life. 28 Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? "

Hebrews explains it like this;

Heb 6:4-6 "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt."

See, those who turn away from God, even after receiving His love and forgiveness, put Him to an 'open shame'. Their belief in Christ becomes denial. Jesus said this concerning those who deny Him;

Mt 10:32-33 "So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven."

He will say this to them because #1, they never received the love of the truth. #2 those who have and turned it aside, which when they do they hold Christ to an "open shame" which is to "publicly profess" that Christ is not the only way, their once held faith will turn into nothingness and their remembrance in His book will be blotted out. It will be as if He never knew them. He will deny them.

Hi, young'in, that sounds clear enough, huh? Good material!
---Elijah

 

[Elvispelvis]

prophetmark asks ?

But how can they prophesy in Jesus's name and cast out demons and perform miracles if they haven't got the Holy Spirit living in them? And how can Jesus not know people who have the Holy Spirit living in them?----------------


Elvispelvis said'

Excellent , intelligent, thoughtful, decisive question, PM ,

How was it possible to cast out demons, perform miracles, if they did not have the holy spirit ?

The first logical answer is they are false prophets in christians clothes collecting money for themselves in God's name.
We are told you shall know them by their fruits which we know from these people who claim to
have spirit gifts and gain a huge following collecting fame and fortune along the way.

The false miracles they perform the healings the lies and myths fool a modern public who have never studied the old testament.
They always claim they are filled with the holy spirit.

Yeshua knowing there is no such thing as filled with the Holy Spirit , or demons, or spirit gifts of miracles available , says go away from me I never knew you.

That statement of Yeshua makes sense in the light of the lack of the Holy Spirit that they claim to have!!

According to modern churches if the Holy Spirit lives in them and the Holy Spirit is God then God lives in them.
How can there be 4,203 churches all saying they are correct all claiming God lives in them??

Yet for years they have killed each other in the name of God.

Yeshua sorts them out very quickly rejecting the christians, instantly without mercy, to outer darkness.
This is why we are told '
Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

May God bless your study of the old testament.

 

[Strangelove]

According to modern churches if the Holy Spirit lives in them and the Holy Spirit is God then God lives in them.
How can there be 4,203 churches all saying they are correct all claiming God lives in them??

Yet for years they have killed each other in the name of God.

Yeshua sorts them out very quickly rejecting the christians, instantly without mercy, to outer darkness.

May God bless your study of the old testament.

----comment deleted---------

Ok I'll just highlight his words. Let's continue to have discussion with people who deny the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit. What a wonderful liberal society we live in today.

 

[Nathan]

Strangelove, that comment really does not add anything to the discussion on hand. Please refrain from doing this.