I want to beleave, but....

[MrRed]

I want to start out by saying I'm not an atheist (meaning I'm not 100% against the idea of a god), but I'm also not convinced that there is a god.
Some might call me an agnostic... but I don't really think I fall into that category either.

I just have so many things flying through my head that I can't side one way or another (I can't even side in the middle, going back to the whole agnostic thing).

I want to say off the bat that any posts that try to use scare tactics to get me to believe something will be ignored. I also wish not to have to go through a mountain of replies that simply state that there is a god with no backing of any kind what-so-ever. Lastly, please don't just flat out quote the bible as your facts. I swear I'm not talking down or discrediting the bible or other texts in anyway. Its just, because I'm not sure on the existence of god, then I'm not sure if that book is truly his word, and so it really wouldn't help to convince me in any way... I hope you understand. I wish to find actual facts that can show me if there is a divine being.

Please don't simply look down at me for my lack of- well... any faith of any kind. I am a good person at heart, I honestly don't have it in me to do evil in any way, and I'm really a nice guy who people enjoy to be around. I'm happy and I make others happy...

 

[prough91]

Don't use the Bible? Geez, hamstring a guy. Get "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel, that's what made me change my mind.

 

[(THE)]

I want to start out by saying I'm not an atheist (meaning I'm not 100% against the idea of a god), but I'm also not convinced that there is a god.
Some might call me an agnostic... but I don't really think I fall into that category either.

I just have so many things flying through my head that I can't side one way or another (I can't even side in the middle, going back to the whole agnostic thing).

I want to say off the bat that any posts that try to use scare tactics to get me to believe something will be ignored. I also wish not to have to go through a mountain of replies that simply state that there is a god with no backing of any kind what-so-ever. Lastly, please don't just flat out quote the bible as your facts. I swear I'm not talking down or discrediting the bible or other texts in anyway. Its just, because I'm not sure on the existence of god, then I'm not sure if that book is truly his word, and so it really wouldn't help to convince me in any way... I hope you understand. I wish to find actual facts that can show me if there is a divine being.

Please don't simply look down at me for my lack of- well... any faith of any kind. I am a good person at heart, I honestly don't have it in me to do evil in any way, and I'm really a nice guy who people enjoy to be around. I'm happy and I make others happy...

Maybe you should take some time out and pray,,,just ask God to reveal Himself,,,,Hes probably not going to send a cloud of fire or anything like that,,,but He has His ways......But if your trully seeking God he will make Himself known,,,no if ands or buts about it.....

 

[azlan88]

If you're going to be selective in how we try to help you, then you're just tying our hands behind our backs. It is by the word of God that the Holy Spirit works in people, so telling us not to quote the Bible will just hinder the believing process.

 

[brakelite]

G'day MrRed, what you ask is impossible, sorry, but not one of us here can prove God to you. Nor did anyone else 'prove' God to us. The way we found Him was by searching for ourselves. And that is where the Bible comes in. I won't quote a reaft of scriptures that 'prove' the existence of God, but I will quote just one verse , a promise, that if followed, will enable you to prove the existence of God for yourself. Much as "The" wrote.
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD:

 

[ChattyMute]

I want to start out by saying I'm not an atheist (meaning I'm not 100% against the idea of a god), but I'm also not convinced that there is a god.
Some might call me an agnostic... but I don't really think I fall into that category either.

Most atheists I've met including myself aren't 100% against the idea of a gods/God.

I just have so many things flying through my head that I can't side one way or another (I can't even side in the middle, going back to the whole agnostic thing).

Well, that's not a bad thing. And you're probably not going to find your answer on this forum. You have to decide for yourself.

I want to say off the bat that any posts that try to use scare tactics to get me to believe something will be ignored. I also wish not to have to go through a mountain of replies that simply state that there is a god with no backing of any kind what-so-ever. Lastly, please don't just flat out quote the bible as your facts. I swear I'm not talking down or discrediting the bible or other texts in anyway. Its just, because I'm not sure on the existence of god, then I'm not sure if that book is truly his word, and so it really wouldn't help to convince me in any way... I hope you understand. I wish to find actual facts that can show me if there is a divine being.

What do you mean by actual facts? If you mean facts that science would consider facts, then you won't get them. Science only deals with the natural; not the supernatural.

 

[Rick W]

What do you mean by actual facts? If you mean facts that science would consider facts, then you won't get them. Science only deals with the natural; not the supernatural.

Christ dealt with matters of the heart.
If one needs facts to believe then there is no faith.

 

[Brokendoll]

I want to start out by saying I'm not an atheist (meaning I'm not 100% against the idea of a god), but I'm also not convinced that there is a god.
Some might call me an agnostic... but I don't really think I fall into that category either.

Just to get the definitions straight:

An Atheist is someone who does not believe in any god or gods. The term does not indicate that there absolutely and beyond any doubt -is- no god (see below), merely that the person in question does not believe in one.

An Agnostic is someone who thinks that the question of whether there is a god or not cannot ever be answered and is forever beyond human capacity.

It is therefore possible to be either an Atheistic Agnostic or a Theistic Agnostic. There is no conflict there.

Neither of these are necessarily directly opposed to Theism. Someone who actively opposes religion would be considered an Antitheist.

As for the scientific view, the concept of god would be what is generally reffered to as Unfalsifiable, which is why you will not find any scientific evidence neither against nor in favour of the existence of god.

See also Stephen J. Gould's view of Non-Overlapping Magisteria.

 

[azlan88]

I tend to disagree that God can not be detected through science. For example, the universe' overwhelming complexity proclaims the work of His hands, and the order and majesty of the universe indicates the character of God, showing that God not only exists but that He loves, and that profoundly.

 

[ChattyMute]

I tend to disagree that God can not be detected through science. For example, the universe' overwhelming complexity proclaims the work of His hands, and the order and majesty of the universe indicates the character of God, showing that God not only exists but that He loves, and that profoundly.

Just because something is complex does not give evidence towards God in science. God cannot be seen, smelt, heard, felt (physically that you can measure), or tasted meaning science cannot gather evidence on God either towards or against.

It may be 'proof' for you, which by the way proofs only exist in math, but it is nowhere near evidence for science.

 

[azlan88]

Who says that God can't be seen? The disciples saw Jesus Christ, and great Christian martyrs of modern times claimed to have seen Him as well, and not alone. Richard Wurmbrand, for example, saw Jesus in a Romanian prison cell in great glory along with his fellow inmates. There are also witnesses who risk their lives for Jesus in other third world countries who claim to have seen visions, and there are missionaries and other men of God who have actually performed miracles and driven out demons. Since we have so many witnesses, the only thing that makes God undetectable is your refusal to believe the witnesses.

 

[ChattyMute]

Who says that God can't be seen? The disciples saw Jesus Christ, and great Christian martyrs of modern times claimed to have seen Him as well, and not alone. Richard Wurmbrand, for example, saw Jesus in a Romanian prison cell in great glory along with his fellow inmates. There are also witnesses who risk their lives for Jesus in other third world countries who claim to have seen visions, and there are other missionaries who have actually performed miracles. Since we have so many witnesses, the only thing that makes God undetectable is your belief that the witnesses are all fools or liars.

I don't think they are fools or liars. Don't claim to know what I think.

Visions cannot be measured scientifically. If someone gets some video footage that can show God physically there and be seen by all and not just the individual, I will change my mind.

I refer you back to Rick's post earlier as well.

 

[azlan88]

How do you explain the thousands of witnesses who say that they have seen visions, performed miracles and driven out demons? I can tell you a whole story about my mother's friend and her battle with witches and warlocks in a witch town, but you probably won't believe that, either. As for Rick's post, the apostle Paul described faith as "the belief in things unseen," but that doesn't mean that people haven't seen Jesus walk on water or rise from the dead.

 

[ChattyMute]

How do you explain the thousands of witnesses who say that they have seen visions, performed miracles and driven out demons? I can tell you a whole story about my mother's friend and her battle with witches and warlocks in a witch town, but you probably won't believe that, either. As for Rick's post, the apostle Paul described faith as "the belief in things unseen," but that doesn't mean that people haven't seen Jesus walk on water or rise from the dead.

Oh. I believe that they believe they saw it. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. Maybe some of them were just their brains tricking them, maybe some were actually God or because of God.

Point is science can't tell us if they were because of God or not. And personal stories are not evidence in science because they are biased. Visions can't be readily repeated either, which is another thing science needs for it to be evidence or to be tested.

Faith that you are talking about is a belief not based on evidence. So a more specific version of what you said. You have accounts where people have claimed to see the Loch Ness Monster as well.

 

[azlan88]

You can't dismiss the immense amount of witnesses. You still have to take into account whether they were honest, mad, or liars. But I assure you that any man who lays down his life for his friends, or risks his life for his enemies, is niether of these. And the Loch Ness monster doesn't even compare to God. God is a reasonable, loving, all-powerful and beautiful being who wants us to call Him "Father." So He is higher on the scale of wonder and value.

 

[ChattyMute]

You can't dismiss the immense amount of witnesses. You still have to take into account whether they were honest, mad, or liars. But I assure you that any man who lays down his life for his friends, or risks his life for his enemies, is niether of these. And the Loch Ness monster doesn't even compare to God. God is a reasonable, loving, all-powerful and beautiful being who wants us to call Him "Father." So He is higher on the scale of wonder and value. But to you God is a monster and has no value. I'm not going to toss pearls before swine anymore. I shake the dust of my feet at your doorstep. Your blood is on your own head. I am clean.

I didn't dismiss. I already said I believe they saw what they saw. I can't say whether it was a trick of the brain or God. Read. I never claimed someone who risks he life is a liar or mad. Although I'm sure some are.

I never compared to Lock Ness Monster to God. I compared the eye witness accounts.

I never said God was a monster or had no value. Don't put words in my mouth. And don't assume you no what I think. Just because I disagree with you does not mean I am against God.

 

[Rick W]

I tend to disagree that God can not be detected through science. For example, the universe' overwhelming complexity proclaims the work of His hands, and the order and majesty of the universe indicates the character of God, showing that God not only exists but that He loves, and that profoundly.

I believe that, you believe that. It's a matter of data interpretation. If one doesn't believe or doesn't want to believe then pointing to the universe won't prove God exists. I was an atheist not long ago. I didn't see God there. How could I? I didn't believe.

 

[Faithful4Christ]

Well, that's pretty hard. Christianity is about faith, not about proof. The biggest amount of proof on this Earth, IS THIS EARTH. Do me a favor, go take a walk outside. Look at the birds, the grass, the green, the waters flowing perfectly, and everything working in perfect sync to make this Earth support life. And then ask yourself if this could happen on accident. Ask yourself why is the Earth on a tilt, a tilt so perfect that we are not burned nor do we freeze to death. Ask yourself what is holding the Earth up in space. How does it just "float" and how is it the perfect distance from the sun. The Earth is God's amazing work, it is no accident. When I fully accepted Jesus as my Lord, I was watching the sunset over the ocean, asking myself how this could be an accident. SO GO TAKE A WALK! Im sure the Lord will answer your question. God Bless

Faithful4Christ

 

[Brokendoll]

And the Loch Ness monster doesn't even compare to God.

Well, if we're discussing science, the Loch Ness Monster and God are on equal footing. Neither have any evidence in favor of them and both are supported by nothing but personal anecdotes and eye-witness accounts, neither of which are considered scientific evidence.

 

[Rick W]

Depends on what we conclude from what we see. Science gathers the data. We make the conclusion.
Science is the gift from God that we may behold his Creation in ever-increasing awe of His power and glory.
Are there scientists that believe God exists? Of course. The data gathered through the tools of science heightens their appreciation for the Creator.
Concerning the Lock Ness monster I think the question is did God really create it or not? Maybe we'll find that out sooner or later. Through science of course... God's gift to man.