I want to beleave, but....

[Slyvena]

Well I was raised in a Christian family so my proof came in the form of miracles

But my freind who I lead to Christ, I converted him mostly through Christain Science relating to the flood, Catastrophisum, and Christian Scientific Observations on the known universe and how its structure is pretty much impossible to occur naturally.

Did you know that if there was a big bang, if it was just a small margin more powerful everything would have blown out way apart from everything else, and if it was just a tiny bit weaker than the universe would have never escaped its own gravity and re-collapsed.

Little things like that, I never actually bothered to check if that one above was correct, so I choose not to share it with my freind, in fact I think I actually stuck to earth science, not so much universe science.


As I said, I find my proof everyday where I see visions of things days before they occur, but such witnessing is only really useful for converting people I personally know, somehow when your talking to someone directly its like they find it way easier to believe your testimony.

 

[Brokendoll]

Well I was raised in a Christian family so my proof came in the form of miracles

Is that a given? That being raised in a Christian family exposes you to miracles?
What kind of miracles were these? Could you provide some examples?

But my freind who I lead to Christ, I converted him mostly through Christain Science relating to the flood, Catastrophisum, and Christian Scientific Observations on the known universe and how its structure is pretty much impossible to occur naturally.

There is no scientific evidence to support the flood as described in the bible. In fact, all the evidence suggests that the Flood Myth, as described in the bible, cannot be correct.
What structure of the universe is impossible to occur naturally?
What is your idea of what science really is?

Did you know that if there was a big bang, if it was just a small margin more powerful everything would have blown out way apart from everything else, and if it was just a tiny bit weaker than the universe would have never escaped its own gravity and re-collapsed.

See the Multiverse Hypotheses.

Little things like that, I never actually bothered to check if that one above was correct, so I choose not to share it with my freind, in fact I think I actually stuck to earth science, not so much universe science.

Could you provide some examples of the "earth science" you've used to convert people?

As I said, I find my proof everyday where I see visions of things days before they occur, but such witnessing is only really useful for converting people I personally know, somehow when your talking to someone directly its like they find it way easier to believe your testimony.

As you used the term "everyday" I'll assume that this happens with some regularity. And if that is the case, I strongly suggest that you contact James Randi. He has a million dollars for you.

 

[Slyvena]

Well I was raised in a Christian family so my proof came in the form of miracles

Is that a given? That being raised in a Christian family exposes you to miracles?
What kind of miracles were these? Could you provide some examples?

But my freind who I lead to Christ, I converted him mostly through Christain Science relating to the flood, Catastrophisum, and Christian Scientific Observations on the known universe and how its structure is pretty much impossible to occur naturally.

There is no scientific evidence to support the flood as described in the bible. In fact, all the evidence suggests that the Flood Myth, as described in the bible, cannot be correct.
What structure of the universe is impossible to occur naturally?
What is your idea of what science really is?

Did you know that if there was a big bang, if it was just a small margin more powerful everything would have blown out way apart from everything else, and if it was just a tiny bit weaker than the universe would have never escaped its own gravity and re-collapsed.

See the Multiverse Hypotheses.

Little things like that, I never actually bothered to check if that one above was correct, so I choose not to share it with my freind, in fact I think I actually stuck to earth science, not so much universe science.

Could you provide some examples of the "earth science" you've used to convert people?

As I said, I find my proof everyday where I see visions of things days before they occur, but such witnessing is only really useful for converting people I personally know, somehow when your talking to someone directly its like they find it way easier to believe your testimony.

As you used the term "everyday" I'll assume that this happens with some regularity. And if that is the case, I strongly suggest that you contact James Randi. He has a million dollars for you.

No its not a given, I know of many Christians who have never seen one, which saddens me. I have had the privilege of being raised by my parents who are awesome warriors of God, I respect the teaching and guidance they have provided in not just showcasing Christ to me but teaching and allowing me to begin to step out in my own ministry in these past few years as a prophet.

When my brother was 5 he was knocked into one of those old 1 metre high canisters that store boiling water, the safety lid was broken and the water poured over his body. My parents remember the blood curdling scream from the other room and sound no parent ever wants to hear. When they ran water over his arms the skin all fell off and clogged up the drain, the burns had already penetrated down to the muscle. It was at a church lunch so while my parents rushed to hospital everyone else went into an impromptu prayer session. My brother survived the night and through it several churches had begun praying for him. At one of them a man prophesied that my brother would not need skin grafts and that he would not feel any more pain. Considering he didnt have any skin left there to grow back from it was not possible to not need grafts, and with burns like these the pain is excruciating and months long.

The next day a doctor and several students came into the room while mum was there, they doctor became very angry, someone had apparently misdiagnosed my brother. He only had superficial burns. which given that the skin had literally fell off him from the burns the day before... well thats a miracle. My brother was discharged that day and never needed to return. To this day you can see the tinyest scaring under his arm if he holds it up to sunlight, a small hidden reminder of how God literally saved his life. Good thing too cause it was my other brothers that knocked him into the urn thingy so they would have felt quite bad for permanently disfiguring/killing their brother.

My youth leader didn't have a thyroid gland, it was given to him a few months ago during a prayer session. As in he collapsed and then stopped taking his medication after that.

I see visions of young members of the congregation stepping out usually a week before I then witness them do it, it's always the one's that I'd never expect, but because God has me watching I then learn from them when it happens. My dad was the same way when he was a child, God always showed us things through pictures, events that were to happen, people we were to see and help in the street etc etc

I've seen a ton of minor miracles and healings like broken bones, a young lady who was born with one leg too short, it grew to its proper length during the service. Even just a guy with eye irritation that was stopping him from doing his job as a builder, I led him through prayer and guided him to surrender something before his healing came and he was out helping build our church the next day.

Basically I just told you the few that came to my head, I can say more if you want.



I only have ever converted that one freind (I've only been a serious Christian 2 years), he was on a thin tether until I starting showing him the holy spirit and how he turns around lives, then my friend could simply believe like me and science become supplementary not foundational, to be honest I've done very little research myself because I don't really need it myself to believe, I am actually involved in something that will have me doing alot more study this year so I hope to be able to better relate to people through reason and logic alone, when they are not physically near me and I can't just show them. For my freind, he was an easy one, I just googled a bunch of stuff about the flood and the Christian perspective on how the earth layers were formed through it. Like I said I don't know much, its just hard to get around to doing it when I'm just learning so much else this year about myself and "bla bla bla Christian lingo"


lol everyday was a bit of an exaggeration, monthly sometimes weekly. Unfortunately I think that million dollars thing you have to like plan out when you are going to perform the supernatural event and it just don't work that way, I don't decide when and where or how I see the visions. Besides most of them relate to emotional and physiological change (hard to scientifically prove) in people which is usually a work in progress, I would not endanger there spiritual journey and trust by making the vision I had seen about them known to anyone else other than the person themselves in some attempt at gaining wealth.

EDIT: yeah I've heard of the multi verse before, "hey lets make a theory where every single thing ever can and has happened which means our super unlikely state of being is just one of those things" would be a very blunt way of putting it. But just like any other form of science, I will only give it credibility when it is observed in some way, just like the effects of biblical events observed (Depending on which scientists you talk to lol).

 

[Brokendoll]

When my brother was 5 he was...

My youth leader didn't have a thyroid gland...

I see visions of young members of the congregation stepping out...

I've seen a ton of minor miracles and healings like broken bones, a young lady who was born with one leg too short, it grew to its proper length during the service. Even just a guy with eye irritation that was stopping him from doing his job as a builder, I led him through prayer and guided him to surrender something before his healing came and he was out helping build our church the next day.

Basically I just told you the few that came to my head, I can say more if you want.

I know I'll never convince you of this, but there are several natural ways of explaining these events. For instance, your brother -could- in fact have been wrongly diagnosed, and the burns -could- have been to only the outermost skin-layers.

Improbable medical incidences happen every day as a matter of pure statistics, and while interesting, until we see a pattern emerge, they are little more than freak occurences. Statistically speaking these things are -bound- to happen from time to time due to the sheer number of cases, but they are also, statistically speaking, nothing more than that. People sometimes survive due to freak incidents, and people sometimes die due to freak incidents. Personally I see nothing supernatural in this.

And while I would never step to calling you or anyone related to the cases above a liar, there have been too many cases of "healers" being revealed as frauds not to mention it as a potential factor. People are also notoriously bad eye-witnesses and our own minds will embelish the events in the time that passes afterwards. Which is why eye-witness accounts and personal annecdotes do not count as evidence in science.

...to be honest I've done very little research myself because I don't really need it myself to believe, I am actually involved in something that will have me doing alot more study this year so I hope to be able to better relate to people through reason and logic alone, when they are not physically near me and I can't just show them.

Well, I'm a science teacher, so I have done a fair bit of research into various subjects. I'm hardly an expert, being neither a scientist, nor a professor of any kind, but If you have any particular things you wonder about, I'll be happy to try to answer them for you.

For my freind, he was an easy one, I just googled a bunch of stuff about the flood and the Christian perspective on how the earth layers were formed through it. Like I said I don't know much, its just hard to get around to doing it when I'm just learning so much else this year about myself and "bla bla bla Christian lingo"

As I said, the flood myth flies in the face of everything we know about how the world works, so, scientifically speaking, it cannot be true as written. And for me, personally, I hold science to be the most powerful and efficient idea we humans have ever come up with, that produces tangible, testible, useful results every day. If you like, I could take a stab at (scientifically) "debunking" the flood myth, but I'm not sure if I would then be breaking some of the rules of this forum. ;)

lol everyday was a bit of an exaggeration, monthly sometimes weekly. Unfortunately I think that million dollars thing you have to like plan out when you are going to perform the supernatural event and it just don't work that way, I don't decide when and where or how I see the visions. Besides most of them relate to emotional and physiological change (hard to scientifically prove) in people which is usually a work in progress

Please don't take this as an insult, but my first thought is that you only have a strong sense of intuition. Your mind receives billions of impressions from your senses every day, most of which we are not conciously aware. The brain still receives them though and draws conclusions from this mass of information, and it will sometimes give you small "nudges" we commonly call "gut-feeling". This is what is known as intuition, which basically means that we get a strong sense of something, often related to people (we are social animals after all), such as "don't trust this person", or the like. These "nudges" can come to us through dreams or while we are awake, but they have in common that we are left feeling as if we know something without being able to explain exactly -how- we know these things.

I would not endanger there spiritual journey and trust by making the vision I had seen about them known to anyone else other than the person themselves in some attempt at gaining wealth.

Well, you know, the wealth doesn't have to be for personal gain. I'm sure you can think of some good causes that would do well with a million dollars.

EDIT: yeah I've heard of the multi verse before, "hey lets make a theory where every single thing ever can and has happened which means our super unlikely state of being is just one of those things" would be a very blunt way of putting it. But just like any other form of science, I will only give it credibility when it is observed in some way, just like the effects of biblical events observed (Depending on which scientists you talk to lol).

These are only hypotheses thus far, and we don't have nearly the insight nor the technology to test any of them at this point. I just wanted to point out that there are other ideas out there that may or may not explain the problem you pointed out. Science freely admits that we still have a lot of work ahead of us, and we are nowhere near a complete understanding of the universe. But, the scientific understanding that we have gained so far have been put to good use, one of which is the medium through which we are now communicating. :D

 

[Slyvena]

I know I'll never convince you of this, but there are several natural ways of explaining these events. For instance, your brother -could- in fact have been wrongly diagnosed, and the burns -could- have been to only the outermost skin-layers.

Oh no, I've seen many 'miracles' that turned out to be unlikely natural events, but my father was a fire-fighter, he had seen these burns before... they are in pretty much in all cases a death sentence for the victim. The skin was gone, the muscle was burnt, there is no way they were ever superficial.

But if you have an idea on how such a thing could occur naturally feel free to say so, I am not so arrogant as most as to insist my examples are infallible (I've seen some Christians whose response to a natural explanation of what they've seen is something alone the lines of "la la la la! I can't hear you! la la la la!"). Its just people have tried to convince me it was not as bad as we had thought, and so far they have never been able to.


As for science, I'm not scientist, and neither are most people on the planet. None of us could go toe to toe with an atheist scientist and no normal atheist could argue effectively against a Christian scientist. The most I do is provide the person I'm talking to with the idea that there are multiple opinions on the matter. In order to truly convince them with science I think we would both have to be fully qualified experts in a couple fields, and that just isn't a common thing these days. Its when they admit that there beliefs aren't bullet proof and give God a chance that he reveals himself to them, and then I see the change in their life from that point on.

Please don't take this as an insult, but my first thought is that you only have a strong sense of intuition. Your mind receives billions of impressions from your senses every day, most of which we are not conciously aware. The brain still receives them though and draws conclusions from this mass of information, and it will sometimes give you small "nudges" we commonly call "gut-feeling". This is what is known as intuition, which basically means that we get a strong sense of something, often related to people (we are social animals after all), such as "don't trust this person", or the like. These "nudges" can come to us through dreams or while we are awake, but they have in common that we are left feeling as if we know something without being able to explain exactly -how- we know these things.

Tell me, can intuition predict meeting a person I've never met before who looks exactly like the one in my vision, can intuition predict that a person who I've never paid any attention too is going to need some serious help when I next see them (hmmm... maaaaaaybe), can intuition provide literal pictures in your head that tell you things about people you'd never believe but then when you step out in faith and tell them they burst out crying and spill that it all, revealing the vision was spot on. Does intuition have a 100% success rate?

I can understand that you may think I'm just a very observant person who can pick up on non-verbal cues etc very easily, but I assure you, I actually am like that as well, but these visions are something more, something beyond what I could 'just know'.

Well, you know, the wealth doesn't have to be for personal gain. I'm sure you can think of some good causes that would do well with a million dollars.

Each thing I see I am also told its purpose (except some, which are assure you is the most annoying thing ever when you have to go researching the symbolism of a vision) in most cases it is for my own knowledge or to tell the person as a warning/affirmation. I would never try to win the money for personal gain, but I will also not warp the purpose of something that is not meant for it, if I am told to go for it then I will, but it is not my decision. Besides our church has received millions in the past right when we needed it, we don't need to win some prize for God to provide.

These are only hypotheses thus far, and we don't have nearly the insight nor the technology to test any of them at this point. I just wanted to point out that there are other ideas out there that may or may not explain the problem you pointed out. Science freely admits that we still have a lot of work ahead of us, and we are nowhere near a complete understanding of the universe. But, the scientific understanding that we have gained so far have been put to good use, one of which is the medium through which we are now communicating. :D

and I am always interested in the newest advances in the theory, I am of the opinion that if my faith is right then I should not find anything that would challenge it, so there is no danger in exploring other beliefs and opinions such as atheistic science. I admit I've probably spent more time reading up on evolution than theology .

 

[ChattyMute]

Its when they admit that there beliefs aren't bullet proof and give God a chance that he reveals himself to them, and then I see the change in their life from that point on.

Most atheists I have met in person know (and have told me that) there beliefs aren't bullet proof. I can't speak for everyone, but I have given God plenty of chances. And if he wanted to reveal himself to me right now in a way that my skeptical mind can accept, I would accept him. I might not worship him, but I would acknowledge its existence at the very least.

Change in life happens with or without God. And for me, my life has changed for the better without God. Everyone's different, though.

 

[Rick W]

Looking back my life changed so many times I lost count. Seemed like every 5 years or so I wasn't the same guy or thought the same things. Not all for the better either. But at the time it always seemed better. That ended 1998.

 

[Brokendoll]

Oh no, I've seen many 'miracles' that turned out to be unlikely natural events, but my father was a fire-fighter, he had seen these burns before... they are in pretty much in all cases a death sentence for the victim. The skin was gone, the muscle was burnt, there is no way they were ever superficial.

But if you have an idea on how such a thing could occur naturally feel free to say so, I am not so arrogant as most as to insist my examples are infallible (I've seen some Christians whose response to a natural explanation of what they've seen is something alone the lines of "la la la la! I can't hear you! la la la la!"). Its just people have tried to convince me it was not as bad as we had thought, and so far they have never been able to.

Without investigating the case properly, the best I have at the moment is that the burns were, in fact, not as serious as they looked. Considering that his son might be dying could have scewed your father's perception somewhat, but it would be insensitive of me to claim that with certainty. The mind is a maleable thing, and what we think we see is not always what's there. The "software", if you like, that runs our sensory input is very good at making changes and making things appear differently than they are, and it sometimes misfires.

As for science, I'm not scientist, and neither are most people on the planet. None of us could go toe to toe with an atheist scientist and no normal atheist could argue effectively against a Christian scientist. The most I do is provide the person I'm talking to with the idea that there are multiple opinions on the matter. In order to truly convince them with science I think we would both have to be fully qualified experts in a couple fields, and that just isn't a common thing these days. Its when they admit that there beliefs aren't bullet proof and give God a chance that he reveals himself to them, and then I see the change in their life from that point on.

As mentioned, neither science, nor I claim to have the full picture. I have just decided to hold out for something more substantial in the form of evidence until I consider something supernatural. And even if such evidence should surface some day, let's say evidence that there is such a thing as god, the question still remains, which god. It just seems unlikely to me that the accident of birth should determine which faith is "right", and I am well aware that had I been born in India, I would most likely have been a Hindu, just as if I had been born in Iran I would most likely have been a Muslim. But that's just my position and I fervently believe that this is something that everyone has to figure out for themselves.

Tell me, can intuition predict meeting a person I've never met before who looks exactly like the one in my vision

No, but we know that memory is a very maleable thing and does indeed change over time. This is why the police wants to interview the witnesses of a crime as soon as possible after the event, and most certainly before they have had a chance to sleep on it.

can intuition predict that a person who I've never paid any attention too is going to need some serious help when I next see them (hmmm... maaaaaaybe)

Most definately, if one is, as you say, good at picking up non-verbal cues.

can intuition provide literal pictures in your head that tell you things about people you'd never believe but then when you step out in faith and tell them they burst out crying and spill that it all, revealing the vision was spot on.

I would say, yes, definately. Again, an intuitive person can pick up on cues like that, and the insight might be revealed to them in a dream or the like. As I said previously, intuition generally work on a subconcious level, and most of the time it can be hard to know where the insight came from.

Does intuition have a 100% success rate?

Absolutely not, but we have had millions of years of development as social animals, something which has fine tuned our minds to interpreting social signals. This is also the main reason we so often see faces in random patterns, because on a very deep level, faces, and thus the signals they send out, are very important to us.

I can understand that you may think I'm just a very observant person who can pick up on non-verbal cues etc very easily, but I assure you, I actually am like that as well, but these visions are something more, something beyond what I could 'just know'.

Well, I'm not looking to convince you otherwise (I don't think I could even if I tried), but perhaps my point of view can give some insight into how others might perceive what you say.

Each thing I see I am also told its purpose (except some, which are assure you is the most annoying thing ever when you have to go researching the symbolism of a vision) in most cases it is for my own knowledge or to tell the person as a warning/affirmation. I would never try to win the money for personal gain, but I will also not warp the purpose of something that is not meant for it, if I am told to go for it then I will, but it is not my decision. Besides our church has received millions in the past right when we needed it, we don't need to win some prize for God to provide.

A million dollars can buy a lot of computers for a nearby school, or it can be put to use in some charitable way. ;)

and I am always interested in the newest advances in the theory, I am of the opinion that if my faith is right then I should not find anything that would challenge it, so there is no danger in exploring other beliefs and opinions such as atheistic science. I admit I've probably spent more time reading up on evolution than theology .

That sounds like a good starting point at least.
I take it then, that you have no problems with the Theory of Evolution?

 

[Brokendoll]

Its when they admit that there beliefs aren't bullet proof and give God a chance that he reveals himself to them, and then I see the change in their life from that point on.

Most atheists I have met in person know (and have told me that) there beliefs aren't bullet proof. I can't speak for everyone, but I have given God plenty of chances. And if he wanted to reveal himself to me right now in a way that my skeptical mind can accept, I would accept him. I might not worship him, but I would acknowledge its existence at the very least.

Change in life happens with or without God. And for me, my life has changed for the better without God. Everyone's different, though.

Indeed.
It is important to remember that being an atheist doesn't mean that the person says that there with 100% certainty is no god. It merely means that the person does not believe in any of them.

But like you said, this is a choice everyone must do for themselves.

 

[Slyvena]

Without investigating the case properly, the best I have at the moment is that the burns were, in fact, not as serious as they looked. Considering that his son might be dying could have scewed your father's perception somewhat, but it would be insensitive of me to claim that with certainty. The mind is a maleable thing, and what we think we see is not always what's there. The "software", if you like, that runs our sensory input is very good at making changes and making things appear differently than they are, and it sometimes misfires.

I'll admit there is a slim chance that happened, but this wasn't an isolated incident, it was one example, I encounter miracle after miracle after miracle, at some point you either start believing that you've encountered just about every unlikely event that could every happen in successive series... or that there is a God.

As mentioned, neither science, nor I claim to have the full picture. I have just decided to hold out for something more substantial in the form of evidence until I consider something supernatural. And even if such evidence should surface some day, let's say evidence that there is such a thing as god, the question still remains, which god. It just seems unlikely to me that the accident of birth should determine which faith is "right", and I am well aware that had I been born in India, I would most likely have been a Hindu, just as if I had been born in Iran I would most likely have been a Muslim. But that's just my position and I fervently believe that this is something that everyone has to figure out for themselves.

I totally Agree

Well, I'm not looking to convince you otherwise (I don't think I could even if I tried), but perhaps my point of view can give some insight into how others might perceive what you say.

Yes, I've heard those explanations before... and considered them. Quite frankly they hold no merit when held up to my life encounters. I guess I'm just some kind of super intuition machine... I guess the prophecies that were said before I was born but that I was only told about once I'd begun to show them; about my gift where also just super intuitive people who somehow knew what my mothers child would be like...

Look I could go on, that's the thing. Any Miracle, Any vision and encounter of God can be reasoned away by itself, its when they line up back to back that they start to form a picture... as each new event is added the unlikelihood of it being natural events multiplys until it is only logical that is not a natural event at all. In fact I'm sure a few of miracles I've seen weren't miracles at all but were in fact perfectly natural incredibly unlikely events... but not the sea of them that I've seen.

I understand you'll never been convince, I hardly expect you to just take my word for it. But this is the perspective I see them from.

A million dollars can buy a lot of computers for a nearby school, or it can be put to use in some charitable way. ;)

A common dilemma, the proof is there for those that wish to see it, if they were ever going to give us the money, they already would have.

That sounds like a good starting point at least.
I take it then, that you have no problems with the Theory of Evolution?

Actually I've got quite a few tiffs with it like many (most I hope) Christians do, but some of its science is sound, I just don't accept the entire theory in its current state.

 

[Brokendoll]

That sounds like a good starting point at least.
I take it then, that you have no problems with the Theory of Evolution?

Actually I've got quite a few tiffs with it like many (most I hope) Christians do, but some of its science is sound, I just don't accept the entire theory in its current state.

Hmmm... I see. Are there any particular points you disagree with?

 

[Slyvena]

That sounds like a good starting point at least.
I take it then, that you have no problems with the Theory of Evolution?

Actually I've got quite a few tiffs with it like many (most I hope) Christians do, but some of its science is sound, I just don't accept the entire theory in its current state.

Hmmm... I see. Are there any particular points you disagree with?

Yes, But I've listed them to atheists in the past... the discussion never goes anywhere.

 

[ChattyMute]

Actually I've got quite a few tiffs with it like many (most I hope) Christians do, but some of its science is sound, I just don't accept the entire theory in its current state.

Hmmm... I see. Are there any particular points you disagree with?

Yes, But I've listed them to atheists in the past... the discussion never goes anywhere.

You could list them to my Christian friend who is a scientist-in-the-making and get the same results. And I'm sure there are some atheists who don't believe in evolutionary theory or know next to nothing about it.
Just saying.

 

[Brokendoll]

Yes, But I've listed them to atheists in the past... the discussion never goes anywhere.

You could list them to my Christian friend who is a scientist-in-the-making and get the same results. And I'm sure there are some atheists who don't believe in evolutionary theory or know next to nothing about it.
Just saying.

Actually, most Christians (world-wide) have no problem with Evolution. It has even been officially accepted by the Catholic Church, easily the largest denomination in the world.

But, as mentioned, it doesn't necessarily follow that being an atheist means you accept the Theory of Evolution, nor that one has any kind of grasp of what it means.

In fact, I find that a frightening number of people, regardless of faith (or lack thereof) have no idea whatsoever about what the Theory actually says. :bigfrown

Oh, and Evolution, by its textbook definition, is an undisputable fact. :D

 

[ChattyMute]

Actually, most Christians (world-wide) have no problem with Evolution. It has even been officially accepted by the Catholic Church, easily the largest denomination in the world.

But, as mentioned, it doesn't necessarily follow that being an atheist means you accept the Theory of Evolution, nor that one has any kind of grasp of what it means.

In fact, I find that a frightening number of people, regardless of faith (or lack thereof) have no idea whatsoever about what the Theory actually says. :bigfrown

Oh, and Evolution, by its textbook definition, is an undisputable fact. :D

Oh. I know that most Christians accept it. I was just giving a more personal example of someone. I don't think I've ever met anyone in person, Christian or not, who flat out rejects evolution. They could have just not said anything though.

And exactly. Evolution is a fact. There are not if, ands, or buts about it. It's how evolution works that is arguable, the theory.

 

[Brokendoll]

Oh. I know that most Christians accept it. I was just giving a more personal example of someone. I don't think I've ever met anyone in person, Christian or not, who flat out rejects evolution.

I have. Twice. ;)
They were...special. And not in a good way.
I've met several online though, and they are usually quite ignorant about it to boot.

And exactly. Evolution is a fact. There are not if, ands, or buts about it. It's how evolution works that is arguable, the theory.

I assume you are reffering to the old micro VS macro evolution argument?

 

[ChattyMute]

Oh. I know that most Christians accept it. I was just giving a more personal example of someone. I don't think I've ever met anyone in person, Christian or not, who flat out rejects evolution.

I have. Twice. ;)
They were...special. And not in a good way.
I've met several online though, and they are usually quite ignorant about it to boot.

Oh, I've met plenty of people online, just never in person.

And exactly. Evolution is a fact. There are not if, ands, or buts about it. It's how evolution works that is arguable, the theory.

I assume you are reffering to the old micro VS macro evolution argument?

Yep. I guess you could also include the arguments where evolution hasn't had enough time to reach today's complex organisms and organs. I don't really see that many problems with it, at least not big ones that destroy the theory. Others think differently though and will argue against it, whether they are right or wrong (or actually have any knowledge on what the theory says*).

*I'm not suggesting anyone who argues against the theory doesn't know what it says. I'm just saying that a lot of people online I have had conversations with objected the theory because they didn't know what it says.

 

[Brokendoll]

I assume you are reffering to the old micro VS macro evolution argument?

Yep. I guess you could also include the arguments where evolution hasn't had enough time to reach today's complex organisms and organs. I don't really see that many problems with it, at least not big ones that destroy the theory. Others think differently though and will argue against it, whether they are right or wrong (or actually have any knowledge on what the theory says*).

I've never seen a decent argument stating exactly -what- would create a dividing border between micro and macro evolution. As far as I'm concerned macro-evolution is just micro-evolution over a long enough period of time, and most evolutionary biologists don't even make the distinction. I've generally heard the, for lack of a better word, argument from creationists. So, if you have a good reasoning on this subject I would be very interested in hearing in (genuinely).

Also, since you mention the timescale, what is your basis for thinking that there hasn't been enough time? I mean, based on average mutation-scales we can more or less pinpoint common ancestors of two species of animals or plants in time (when talking about evolutionary time, of course, "pinpoint" is to be considered within acceptable error bars).

*I'm not suggesting anyone who argues against the theory doesn't know what it says. I'm just saying that a lot of people online I have had conversations with objected the theory because they didn't know what it says.

I know exactly what you mean. Most of the time when discussing evolution with people online I feel more like I'm holding a lecture, explaining all the stuff they didn't know, rather than having a proper exchange of arguments...

 

[ChattyMute]

I've never seen a decent argument stating exactly -what- would create a dividing border between micro and macro evolution. As far as I'm concerned macro-evolution is just micro-evolution over a long enough period of time, and most evolutionary biologists don't even make the distinction. I've generally heard the, for lack of a better word, argument from creationists. So, if you have a good reasoning on this subject I would be very interested in hearing in (genuinely).

That's what I think. Macro-evolution is long term micro-evolution. I don't really have any good reasoning for why people think that, just that some do.

The arguments I listed before aren't my own, and I don't beleive any of them. They are just arguments I have heard (well, read) some people use against the theory of evolution.

Also, since you mention the timescale, what is your basis for thinking that there hasn't been enough time? I mean, based on average mutation-scales we can more or less pinpoint common ancestors of two species of animals or plants in time (when talking about evolutionary time, of course, "pinpoint" is to be considered within acceptable error bars).

I don't think that. *points above* But I remember a friend of mine showing me a guy who mathematically estimated how much time it would take for all of the mutations needed to make us to come about.The guy came to the conclusion that it would take to long for the evolution described in the theory. His math was off from what I remember, and he also didn't take into account periods of history with extreme environmental pressures or less advanced organisms who didn't/don't have as accurate a replicating system as ours.

 

[Brokendoll]

The arguments I listed before aren't my own, and I don't beleive any of them. They are just arguments I have heard (well, read) some people use against the theory of evolution.

Ah. My bad. I misunderstood you.
Damn, and here I was hoping to -finally- hear an intelligent argument for the mechanism that (according to some creationists) stops micro-evolution from becoming macro-evolution.

Oh well. The Theory of Evolution it is then, at least until someone comes up with something that fits the evidence better. I wish whoever takes on the task the best of luck. They are going to need it... ;)