I want to beleave, but....

[Brokendoll]

Depends on what we conclude from what we see. Science gathers the data. We make the conclusion.

That is of course true as far as it goes, but I would like to make some additions. The Scientific Method is the most powerful tool we humans have developed for understanding the world we see around us, and an essential part of that method is the use of falsifiable hypotheses. There are two important points to make note of when developing hypotheses; The hypothesis MUST be falsifiable, and, related, the hypothesis MUST make predictions.

What does that really imply? Well, it implies that over time through observation, experimentation and the gathering of evidence various hypotheses can be shown to be wrong and are thus discarded. It is in this manner that science works its way towards ever more accurate ideas of how the universe funtions; by eliminating those ideas that are either in conflict with, or that are unsupported by the avaliable evidence.

In order to prove Evolution wrong, all you have to do is find the fossil of a modern animal, say a rabbit, in verifiably Paleozoic stone, as this would fly in the face of everything that is predicted by the Theory of Evolution. Good luck finding that fossil though.

The point is that in relation to science we usually don't have to follow both sides of an argument since over time, one or the other is generally shown to be wrong. Based on this we gather what is normally reffered to as scientific FACTS of which Evolution is one.

Are there scientists that believe God exists?

Oh yes, no question. There is nothing that stipulates that one has to abbandon one's faith to be a scientist. One of the worlds most prominent biologists and the co-discoverer of the DNA structure, Francis Crick, is himself a believer. There is no inherent conflict here.

 

[Rick W]

It's still about faith though. There are things the scientific community concludes as a majority in the interpretation of the data collected.

Examining the universe and making conclusions isn't done in a test tube or made repeatable in the a laboratory environment. Again, science generates the data, man makes the conclusions.

Examining the universe is pretty much on the lines of forensics. Depends what one is looking for. The defense attorney looks for evidence that his client is innocent while the prosecutor looks for evidence the client is guilty. Both begin with an assumption. In debate, research or scientific conclusion an assumption must first be made for without that there's no reason for the effort. Nobody does something for nothing.
If I'm looking for "red" chances are I can overlook "blue" and visa-versa. Depends on the focus and what bone is looking for in the first place. During the search for evidence to convict a client one can overlook evidence to the contrary, ignore it as inconsequential or or dismiss it altogether if found. This is simply how the minds of men work.
The issue of man-made global warming is another such instance. It can't be reproduced in the lab in any repeatable fashion. All we can do is look for evidence to present our case as per the assumption stated with. Here again, conclusions are drawn, interpreted from the data collected. That interpretation is of course influenced by the beliefs of the person presenting the evidence found that support the preceding assumptions.

 

[Brokendoll]

And this is where the process of peer review comes in. In order to have your data and your ideas accepted you have to publish them in a scientific journal. Then other scientists will examine both your data and your conclusions, as well as attempting to reproduce your experiments and see if they get the same result.

This is why the statements of individual scientists carry little weight compared to what the scientific consensus agrees upon. That is not to say that individual scientists cannot make a difference. Every year we award Nobel prices to those who have made their mark in history by bringing our understanding of the universe that much further, but by then their data and conclusions have been rigoriously tested and examined by other scientists.

 

[Rick W]

"reproduce your experiments"

Reproduce the data maybe. And reproduce the conclusion maybe if one so agrees.
But a Big Bang in a test tube would be rather hard to reproduce don't you think?

 

[Brokendoll]

Reproduce the data maybe. And reproduce the conclusion maybe if one so agrees.
But a Big Bang in a test tube would be rather hard to reproduce don't you think?

Of course, not all natural phenomena are subject to experiment, but in these cases one has to rely on other methods of gathering data and evidence. If only things we could directly experiment on were considered valid for scientific conclusions we would still go around thinking that the sun revolves around the earth.

 

[Lookn]

Mr.Red, First of all Hi, God Bless and Happy New Year. Mr.Red, there are 2 world views on how man came to be; (A) Evolution, (B) Creation. I have spent years studying evolution and in that matter alone, now know without a doubt that evolution is impossible. I would suggest to you that you visit web sites that prove the impossibility of evolution, not just by opinion but by evidence that has been blacklisted or ignored by the scientific community. A search for Intelligent Design, Anti evolution or creationism will be a start. I have an excellent book entitled "The Genesis Flood" by John Whitcomb and Henry Morris that although a rough read at times because of its in depth scientific wording and descriptions, is an awesome Christian scientific view of evidence for a young earth and world wide flood and why fossils and rocks are placed they way they are in the world. There are many other books of this nature out there. Nothing takes the place of scripture for being taught the ways and will of God but God has given us men to write and fight the lies of humanistic people. Having said that, the next book I am about to recommend that should be read by someone looking for evidence of God has been criticized because of the views of the author on other topics he has touched on in other writings. I only recommend this book (especially the first 4 or 5 chapters) because of the logic used into deducing that there must be a God. It is a very deep book and I had to stop many times to think on the depth of what the author was saying, but his conclusions were very well put. The book is entitled "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis and I have never found a book that proved the existence of God using nothing but logic as this one does. Again I stress that scripture should be the ultimate guide for God, but since you yourself claim not to be a Christian or agnostic, I would recommend this book for help in your search for evidence. Even though you don't quite believe yet, I implore you to pray. Pray before you read the bible for understanding and ask Him to reveal himself to you. Even if it feels funny to pray, do it anyway and tell him your doubts. Be open and honest when you pray. Do so as many times a day as you can muster, regardless what you feel. Feelings come and go, God doesn't. If you really search with your whole heart and soul and mind, God will indeed reveal his reality.

 

[ChattyMute]

I have spent years studying evolution and in that matter alone, now know without a doubt that evolution is impossible.

Oh? And how would that be? Evolution is simply allele frequencies changing over time. Google the Finch Case Study by Boarg and Grant.

 

[ronniechoate34]

Here's the thing. The invisible things of God are clear for us to see. All we have to do is inspect the visible things that surround us and we can understand that these things were indeed put together by God, our creator. To think otherwise would be foolishness. So no one will be excused for disbelief on judgment day.

So what if we can tear things down and figure out how they work. We didn't create them and we are not gods. In fact there are more questions than answers to be found for us here.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

Don't use the Bible? Geez, hamstring a guy. Get "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel, that's what made me change my mind.

I concur! Lee Strobel's book went a long way in leading me to Christ. It answered many of the questions I had and did so from a very analytical mindset versus a "take my word for it" approach.

 

[Lookn]

I have spent years studying evolution and in that matter alone, now know without a doubt that evolution is impossible.

Oh? And how would that be? Evolution is simply allele frequencies changing over time. Google the Finch Case Study by Boarg and Grant.

Again as usual; conjecture on the part of an atheistic world view by measuring beaks and presupposing the outcome. I won't debate you in this particular forum about this issue. My post was to Mr. Red and what he posted and concerned only him and his desire to know truth. Not the intrusive ramblings of an atheistic and/or heretical person who doesn't care about Mr. Red's soul.

 

[ChattyMute]

I have spent years studying evolution and in that matter alone, now know without a doubt that evolution is impossible.

Oh? And how would that be? Evolution is simply allele frequencies changing over time. Google the Finch Case Study by Boarg and Grant.

Again as usual; conjecture on the part of an atheistic world view by measuring beaks and presupposing the outcome. I won't debate you in this particular forum about this issue. My post was to Mr. Red and what he posted and concerned only him and his desire to know truth. Not the intrusive ramblings of an atheistic and/or heretical person who doesn't care about Mr. Red's soul.

That would be scientific world. Just because you are an atheist does not mean you are scientific, and vise versa. *shrugs* Okay. No debate. And you're right, it wouldn't belong on this forum.

When you post something that shows you to be misinformed about evolution, then it is my business. Besides that, this is an open forum where anybody can reply to anybody else. I only replied to one part of your post anyways.

I didn't ramble, and rambling is subjective anyhow. I do care about Mr. Red in the sense that I hope he finds out what he believes in and follows that. Don't claim to know what I do or don't care about.

Haha, and there is nothing wrong with being heretical. xD It simply means you don't believe or take part in established beliefs or standards. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Back a few hundred years ago, it would have been heresy to believe blacks were equal to whites in the US.

 

[Solo]

I want to start out by saying I'm not an atheist (meaning I'm not 100% against the idea of a god), but I'm also not convinced that there is a god.
Some might call me an agnostic... but I don't really think I fall into that category either.

I just have so many things flying through my head that I can't side one way or another (I can't even side in the middle, going back to the whole agnostic thing).

I want to say off the bat that any posts that try to use scare tactics to get me to believe something will be ignored. I also wish not to have to go through a mountain of replies that simply state that there is a god with no backing of any kind what-so-ever. Lastly, please don't just flat out quote the bible as your facts. I swear I'm not talking down or discrediting the bible or other texts in anyway. Its just, because I'm not sure on the existence of god, then I'm not sure if that book is truly his word, and so it really wouldn't help to convince me in any way... I hope you understand. I wish to find actual facts that can show me if there is a divine being.

Please don't simply look down at me for my lack of- well... any faith of any kind. I am a good person at heart, I honestly don't have it in me to do evil in any way, and I'm really a nice guy who people enjoy to be around. I'm happy and I make others happy...

Don't believe in God. That is your choice, but know that the only way anyone comes to know God Almighty is though the Word of God. PERIOD!

And there are none that are good. Not one.

 

[JohnEboy1983]

Well you are obviously somewhat on the right track. You just know something is not right without a God. The world is made too perfect where as in any other changes it cannot support life. If we were further away from the sun we would be frozen and if we were closer we would be baked. We have just the right atmosphere to protect us and land to be on, that we may not be drowned out by all the sea. We have an ideal environment for growing foods that our bodies actually use to keep us from hungering and the very oxygen we breathe to keep us living. Light years after lights year in our universe, our scientists have yet to find any other planet that can sustain life as Earth. Its just to unique and perfect for everything to just happen.

So, I know its not a matter that you refuse to believe in God, but just that you dont know which God is real or fake. Unfortunately for your situation.. this is where the bible is vital. When it comes to believing or disbelieving that there is a God, the above comes into play. Something is tugging on your heart or you probably wouldnt be here otherwise. I believe that you are pretty sure that this Jesus mentioned is truly the way the truth and the life just as the bible says, but you just arent completely sure. I have watched a few history shows actually proving the existence and deity of Jesus. History does prove itself and the bible is just not some made up book by man. You may think that the people of old time were dumb and Jesus tricked them somehow, but keep in mind the people of old were actually just as intelligent and most likely more smarter than every other generation throughout all time after Jesus. Solomon was the wisest man ever. The Egyptians built pyramids that people of our current day still cannot figure out how to get in certain chambers or how they even did it so flawlessly. So people of old time definitely were not dummies and not tricked by Jesus.

So now we know that us as living beings were not just here by chance, but created by God and also that Jesus did not perform some trick out of his sleeve to deceive many generation after generation to be fooled we have to move on further as to why he is truly the son of God. Unfortunately I cannot go any further and the only way you truly can go further is by faith alone. I heard about a story the other night about some man who had pains in his leg and arm where he couldnt move them( i forget his condition) and he was in the hospital. He prayed over them and during the night he felt as if somebody touched him with a finger in both those areas and said "you are healed". An hour later his problems were gone. He said that even though he knew it was God, he still struggles with his faith. With Christianity, Faith is being able to believe in something you cannot see. If your conscience constantly draws you back to Jesus and Christians then I believe you truly know the way the truth and the life and how to get on the straight and narrow path. If not, I advise you to pray with a meaningful heart in the name of Jesus that he may lead you to truth and I will say that you will have the truth tugging at you like you wrapped yourself with a chain and attached it to a semi truck going the opposite direction. It will be like the pull that you get when you are doing something that is not right and you know it.

 

[seekandlisten]

I want to start out by saying I'm not an atheist (meaning I'm not 100% against the idea of a god), but I'm also not convinced that there is a god.
Some might call me an agnostic... but I don't really think I fall into that category either.

I just have so many things flying through my head that I can't side one way or another (I can't even side in the middle, going back to the whole agnostic thing).

I want to say off the bat that any posts that try to use scare tactics to get me to believe something will be ignored. I also wish not to have to go through a mountain of replies that simply state that there is a god with no backing of any kind what-so-ever. Lastly, please don't just flat out quote the bible as your facts. I swear I'm not talking down or discrediting the bible or other texts in anyway. Its just, because I'm not sure on the existence of god, then I'm not sure if that book is truly his word, and so it really wouldn't help to convince me in any way... I hope you understand. I wish to find actual facts that can show me if there is a divine being.

Please don't simply look down at me for my lack of- well... any faith of any kind. I am a good person at heart, I honestly don't have it in me to do evil in any way, and I'm really a nice guy who people enjoy to be around. I'm happy and I make others happy...

What exactly are you looking for? A belief in 'God' requires faith plain and simple. You cannot prove 'God' exists unless you convince yourself that certain physical aspects of our universe are evidence of 'God' but that is merely a belief and not evidence.

Most people that struggle with belief in God are simply struggling with what is put forth by 'religion' and not the simple belief that there is a 'God', 'Creator', 'Divine Being', 'Enlightenment', or whatever term you want to use. If it's facts you are looking for you will not find them unless you can put your faith in 'God' to show them to you 'Himself'. Do note here that there is a big difference between 'faith' and 'belief'.

What it all boils down to is if 'God' is real then we will all be judged in the end on what we did with our lives. This judging will be done on what's in our hearts, not what religion we follow or beliefs we hold but simply what the motives are behind what we do. Scripture shows us that 'blasphemy' against the 'Father' and 'Son' will be forgiven so even if we don't have it right we needn't worry about it as much as some people think. All 'evidence' points to 'God' being intangible. A biologist who is faced with overwhelming evidence that evolution is indeed fact would have a major problem subscribing to a religion that conflicts with this as being false based on nothing but a misunderstanding of the first 2 chapters of the bible. Do you see what I'm getting at? You can choose to be a part of a religion and disregard parts of it, as most 'christians'(this is based on nothing more than personal opinion from experience), or you can simply hold your own beliefs and not subscribe officially to any religion it doesn't matter. If we believe 'God' exists than it is by Him and only Him that we will be judged so others opinions on the matter are just that, opinions and this goes for everything I just said as well.

 

[curiousatheist]

Ok as an atheist who was once a Christian I think I might know where you are coming from. You have a sort of gut feeling that there has to be some sort of higher power but there arent the facts to back it up and it doesnt fit in in with science very well. After awhile and a lot of thinking I decided that this gut feeling was me wanting there to be a higher power whether it made sense or not. It's very comforting to think that god is there watching over you. Now IM NOT TRYING TO CONVERT YOU, this was just the case for me. Take it or leave it. I don't believe that God exists but I can't prove that he doesn't, it's possible that he/she/it does. Maybe you should try to come to terms with being agnostic. Believe in a higher power but just not any specific one. Whatever works best for you and makes you the most happy is what i suggest.

 

[JohnEboy1983]

Whatever works best for you and makes you the most happy is what i suggest.

The problem about believing whatever works best for him or you or anyone is that there is still only one truth to everything in life. If I believed that I could jump off a building and not fall, it doesnt change the fact that gravity is going to cause me to drop. If I believed that I could swim underwater for an hour without air, it doesnt change the fact that I will drown. If I believe I could stare at the sun without being blinded, it doesnt change the fact I will go blind. Believing what you want to believe to make yourself happy is an attempt to really cover everything you fear just to make yourself feel fine. I read a story on the news where I think it was an officer who was shot and died in the hospital(could of been someone else). Well anyways, one of the family members told themselves that they believed he would be fine and he would recover, even after being pronounced dead. I think that person didnt want to believe the truth and made up their own story to make themself feel better, but regardless it did not change the solid truth that their family member was dead. The truth is the truth and anything else is not of the truth which is obviously made up and false.

 

[ChattyMute]

Whatever works best for you and makes you the most happy is what i suggest.

The problem about believing whatever works best for him or you or anyone is that there is still only one truth to everything in life. If I believed that I could jump off a building and not fall, it doesnt change the fact that gravity is going to cause me to drop. If I believed that I could swim underwater for an hour without air, it doesnt change the fact that I will drown. If I believe I could stare at the sun without being blinded, it doesnt change the fact I will go blind. Believing what you want to believe to make yourself happy is an attempt to really cover everything you fear just to make yourself feel fine. I read a story on the news where I think it was an officer who was shot and died in the hospital(could of been someone else). Well anyways, one of the family members told themselves that they believed he would be fine and he would recover, even after being pronounced dead. I think that person didnt want to believe the truth and made up their own story to make themself feel better, but regardless it did not change the solid truth that their family member was dead. The truth is the truth and anything else is not of the truth which is obviously made up and false.

The problem with the truth about religion is we have no conclusive evidence to which religion is the truth, if any of them are. We only have faith when it comes to religion. Since faith doesn't work on evidence, it is really that individuals best guess as to how the world works. Said person's best guess, however, does not change the fact that it is still a guess. Your best guess is not just a shot in the dark; it is going off what makes sense to you. So I agree with curiousatheist.

 

[curiousatheist]

Whatever works best for you and makes you the most happy is what i suggest.

The problem about believing whatever works best for him or you or anyone is that there is still only one truth to everything in life. If I believed that I could jump off a building and not fall, it doesnt change the fact that gravity is going to cause me to drop. If I believed that I could swim underwater for an hour without air, it doesnt change the fact that I will drown. If I believe I could stare at the sun without being blinded, it doesnt change the fact I will go blind. Believing what you want to believe to make yourself happy is an attempt to really cover everything you fear just to make yourself feel fine. I read a story on the news where I think it was an officer who was shot and died in the hospital(could of been someone else). Well anyways, one of the family members told themselves that they believed he would be fine and he would recover, even after being pronounced dead. I think that person didnt want to believe the truth and made up their own story to make themself feel better, but regardless it did not change the solid truth that their family member was dead. The truth is the truth and anything else is not of the truth which is obviously made up and false.

Allow me to specify. Do whatever makes you happy as long as you aren't hurting yourself or anyone else. If you want to believe in the flying spaghetti monster and that makes you happy go right ahead. While this may not be productive to society, as long as it makes you happy and you aren't hurting anyone I don't see why you shouldn't be able to. I realize that this is a blanket statement and there are a lot of gray areas to it but I think that in general it works. "Ignorance is bliss" right? I also known that certain aspects of Christianity arguably do hurt some people but overall it teaches good values.

 

[Danus]

Hi curiousatheist

I can tell you for sure that there is a God and that he is exactly the God you can read about in the Bible. I can also tell you with absolute certainty that God created you, that God knows you, that God loves you, and that God wants desperately to be a part of your life; so much so that he made a path for you to receive him through Jesus Christ, who is your savior, your redeemer. I can also tell you that no one in this forum will ever be able to prove to you what I am saying or that any of it is true. For all you know, I could be as crazy as a loon. However, God himself can prove his existence to you. So, good luck in your quest.

 

[JohnEboy1983]

For all you know, I could be as crazy as a loon.

You are a loon, and so am I and so is anybody who follows Jesus with a true heart. The world looks at us like we are crazy as they did at Jesus. Proud to be a loon! Lol.