I WAS WRONG.....

[francisdesales]

Golfjack,

I have done a bit of reading on "soul" and "spirit" and whether the "spirit" is considered saved - as you claim it is not.

Here are some excerpts from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia for "SPIRIT"...

...The spirit is thus in man the principle of life--but of man as distinguished from the brute--so that in death this spirit is yielded to the Lord (Lu 23:46; Ac 7:59; 1Co 5:5, "that the spirit may be saved"). Hence, God is called the "Father of spirits" (Heb 12:9).

FDS note: "that the spirit may be saved" totally contradicts your claim that the bible never says the spirit is saved, only the soul...


...(1) The Human as Related with the Divine:

We go a step higher when we find the human spirit brought into relationship with the Divine Spirit. For man is but a creature to whom life has been imparted by God's spirit--life being but a resultant of God's breath. Thus life and death are realistically described as an imparting or a withdrawing of God's breath, as in Job 27:3; 33:4; 34:14, "spirit and breath" going together. The spirit may thus be "revived" (Ge 45:27), or "overwhelmed" (Ps 143:4), or "broken" (Pr 15:13). And where sin has been keenly felt, it is "a broken spirit" which is "a sacrifice to God" (Ps 51:17); and when man submits to the power of sin, a new direction is given to his mind: he comes under a "spirit of whoredom" (Ho 4:12); he becomes "proud in spirit" (Ec 7:8), instead of being "patient in spirit"; he is a fool because he is "hasty in spirit" and gives way to "anger" (Ec 7:9). The "faithful in spirit" are the men who resist talebearing and backbiting in the world (Pr 11:13).


FDS note: As you can see, the spirit of man IS redeemed, is saved, is turned towards God.

..."Where is he that put his holy Spirit in the midst of them?" This is borne out by the New Testament, with its warnings against "grieving the Holy Spirit," "lying against the Holy Spirit," and kindred expressions (Eph 4:30; Ac 5:3). It is this Spirit which "beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God" (Ro 8:16)--the spirit which, as Auberlen has put it (PRE1, article "Geist des Menschen"), "appears in a double relationship to us, as the principle of natural life, which is ours by birth, and that of spiritual life, which we receive through the new birth (Wiedergeburt)." Hence, Paul speaks of God whom he serves "with his spirit" (Ro 1:9); and in 2Ti 1:3 he speaks of serving God "in a pure conscience."

FDS note: Again, we see the spirit being led by the Holy Spirit, the principle of our natural life is apparently being led and transformed by the Spirit of Life Himself...

Here are some excerpts from the same ISBE for "SOUL"...

...New Testament Distinctions:

(1) In the New Testament psuche appears under more or less similar conditions as in the Old Testament. The contrast here is as carefully maintained as there. It is used where pneuma would be out of place; and yet it seems at times to be employed where pneuma might have been substituted. Thus in Joh 19:30 we read: "Jesus gave up his pneuma" to the Father, and, in the same Gospel (Joh 10:15), Jesus gave up His "psuche for the sheep," and in Mt 20:28 He gave His psuche (not His pneuma) as a ransom--a difference which is characteristic. For the pneuma stands in quite a different relation to God from the psuche. The "spirit" (pneuma) is the outbreathing of God into the creature, the life-principle derived from God. The "sour" (psuche) is man's individual possession, that which distinguishes one man from another and from inanimate nature. The pneuma of Christ was surrendered to the Father in death; His psuche was surrendered, His individual life was given "a ransom for many." His life "was given for the sheep"

(2) This explains those expressions in the New Testament which bear on the salvation of the soul and its preservation in the regions of the dead. "Thou wilt not leave my soul unto Hades" (the world of shades) (Ac 2:27); "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil" (Ro 2:9); "We are .... of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul" (Heb 10:39); "Receive ..... the implanted word, which is able to save your souls" (Jas 1:21).

The same or similar expressions may be met with in the Old Testament in reference to the soul. Thus in Ps 49:8, the King James Version "The redemption of their soul is precious" and again: "God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol" (Ps 49:15). Perhaps this may explain--at least this is Wendt's explanation--why even a corpse is called nephesh or soul in the Old Testament, because, in the region of the dead, the individuality is retained and, in a measure, separated from God (compare Hag 2:13; Le 21:11).

3. Oehler on Soul and Spirit:

The distinction between psuche and pneuma, or nephesh and ruach, to which reference has been made, may best be described in the words of Oehler (Old Testament Theology, I, 217): "Man is not spirit, but has it: he is soul. .... In the soul, which sprang from the spirit, and exists continually through it, lies the individuality--in the case of man, his personality, his self, his ego." He draws attention to the words of Elihu in Job (33:4): `God's spirit made me,' the soul called into being; `and the breath of the Almighty animates me,' the soul kept in energy and strength, in continued existence, by the Almighty, into whose hands the inbreathed spirit is surrendered, when the soul departs or is taken from us (1Ki 19:4). Hence, according to Oehler the phrases naphshi ("my soul"), naphshekha ("thy soul") may be rendered in Latin egomet, tu ipse; but not ruchi ("my spirit"), ruchakha ("thy spirit")--soul standing for the whole person, as in Ge 12:5; 17:14; Eze 18:4, etc.

FDS note. All of this is a bit interesting, but I do not see your particular explanation regarding "soul" and "spirit" to be very convincing given what I have read here in the ISBE. Apparently, the words CAN be used interchangeably, and the SPIRIT certainly IS saved by God, as it is man's life force, given to man. It certainly makes sense that God would save man's life force if He intends to save man in general...

Regards

 

[golfjack]

reply

Fran, I hear you and have read many books on the subject. But the one thing that they cannot explain is Hebrews 4:12. Most Bible scholars of old believed the same thing you do. But none were actually scriptural. They were only scriptural, as the Bible says, in part. So what is the difference between spirit and soul? Many scholars have thoughyt they were the same in varying definitions.

Yet how could they bbe the same? Paul, by the Spirit of God, said they can be divided by the Word of God ( Heb. 4:12). If one can divide them, they cannot be the same. Fran, this is the question you should answer before we go any farther.

On a side note, I heard that Charismatic Catholic's are alive and well. This is good news to me because they understand what a born-again Christian. Is this true and are you Charismatic?


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

Fran, I hear you and have read many books on the subject. But the one thing that they cannot explain is Hebrews 4:12. Most Bible scholars of old believed the same thing you do. But none were actually scriptural.

The explanation is simple to me. "Soul" and "spirit" are our inner self and are synonymous. This is akin to saying "flesh and bone" when refering to our body. It is the inner man that is pierced by the Word of God. The Word of God doesn't separate man into pieces...The entire man is saved, not just part of him.

And what is your answer to my question regarding whether Christ is more powerful than sin and its effects???

Yet how could they bbe the same? Paul, by the Spirit of God, said they can be divided by the Word of God ( Heb. 4:12). If one can divide them, they cannot be the same. Fran, this is the question you should answer before we go any farther.

I have given you the definition from the ISBE. Yes, there is a slight difference between the two. But I also noted for you that the two are used interchangeably, so the difference is not worth making the claims you make - that the spirit is not saved, only the soul. I even gave you a Scripture verse that DENIES your claim that "only the soul is saved".

What more do you want, Golfjack?

On a side note, I heard that Charismatic Catholic's are alive and well. This is good news to me because they understand what a born-again Christian. Is this true and are you Charismatic?

While I appreciate what the Charismatics are doing for particular people, God didn't make me in that particular mold. I do not believe that one "knows" they are filled with God ONLY when they have an emotional outburst. I don't recall Christ ever going into ecstatic glossalalia in the Gospels, although some Christians apparently did. I see that it works for certain people, but I do not feel called to pray in that manner. I do not see how that makes one person better than another, as Paul notes to the Corinthians. The danger in such prayer is that it can lead to pride - the ultimate sin of separation from God.

Regards

 

[stranger]

Concerning salvation

From time to time questions about body, soul and spirit arise. I would like to briefly comment on what has to die so that we can participate in the new life Christ our Lord offers us.

This I refer to as the heart of the gospel appropriated. It is, I believe, found in Romans 6:1-4. The choices are either the flesh survives or is put to death (in Christ's sacrifice on the cross) in our union with Him. Faith is not simply a question of gazing at the cross and marvelling that our sins are forgiven - without that life giving union through 'baptism' into His death, burial and resurrection - we in fact are not 'justified' but simply looking at salvation from a distance from 'in Adam'.

Either the old man (ie the flesh) is put to death or he continues to mock God (and us) in full knowledge and consent that he is not only alive and well - but untouchable and has been given a lifetime 'doctrinal pardon' or 'reprieve.' This is devastating to the spiritual life for nothing good dwells in the flesh. We did not so learn Christ. (from another tread edited).

Rom6:1-4 prompts the question:

Can 'the flesh' survive being crucified 'in Christ'?

Put positively we are then able to partake of the divine nature.

What happens if and when we sin after being saved? - back to tread discussion. . .

blessings: stranger

 

[destiny]

Re: reply

Fran. It seems to me that what you are saying is that we are saved, but after we are saved we must work our way to heaven by obedience and love. The one thing I know is that we cannot out love God and we cannot out mercy God. It is He alone that secures our salvation. I imagine you would say that if what you call a Mortal sin, then we must confess it to a priest for it to be forgiven. It isGod that Has mercy and not the priest. Then, you might say if we commit what you call venial sins, then one must go to purgatory to get them purged. These beliefs are unbiblical and contrary to the Word of God. We indeed are set free in the liberty that Jesus bought for us. Set free by what? The truth of God's word. Your beliefs are a distortion to the Gospel Message and are the words of men and not God. They don't pass the smell test.


May God bless, Golfjack[/b]

Golfjack, do you really consider obedience and love a "work"? I would consider obedience and love a characteristic of those who love Christ and are 'truly' born again.

If obeying and loving is a work for you, then maybe you are living according to the old nature instead of the new.

Francisdesales (Joe): I enjoy reading your posts brother, you speak the word in full "context", without eliminating or trying to explain away the parts that are less pleasant.

 

[Solo]

Good works follow one who is born again. Until one is born again, all works are works of the flesh, not of the spirit. Those who are born again are created unto GOOD works as we are God's workmanship. Works of the flesh will burn up as wood, hay, and stubble. Who is GOOD other than God?

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

The Key is whether one is born of God or not. If one does not teach the teachings of Jesus Christ, they are deceivers, and they do not have God.

7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. 2 John 1:7-10

 

[francisdesales]

Concerning salvation

From time to time questions about body, soul and spirit arise. I would like to briefly comment on what has to die so that we can participate in the new life Christ our Lord offers us.

This I refer to as the heart of the gospel appropriated. It is, I believe, found in Romans 6:1-4. The choices are either the flesh survives or is put to death (in Christ's sacrifice on the cross) in our union with Him. Faith is not simply a question of gazing at the cross and marvelling that our sins are forgiven - without that life giving union through 'baptism' into His death, burial and resurrection - we in fact are not 'justified' but simply looking at salvation from a distance from 'in Adam'.

Either the old man (ie the flesh) is put to death or he continues to mock God (and us) in full knowledge and consent that he is not only alive and well - but untouchable and has been given a lifetime 'doctrinal pardon' or 'reprieve.' This is devastating to the spiritual life for nothing good dwells in the flesh. We did not so learn Christ. (from another tread edited).

Rom6:1-4 prompts the question:

Can 'the flesh' survive being crucified 'in Christ'?

Put positively we are then able to partake of the divine nature.

What happens if and when we sin after being saved? - back to tread discussion. . .

blessings: stranger

Can I presume that when you say "the flesh must die" and so forth, you are, along with the Bible, saying that the FLESHY DESIRES must die, not the literal body, our flesh, must die? Any temptations of the flesh must be defeated, crushed, killed. We are to choose the ways of the Spirit of God, not our own fleshy desires.

Is this an accurate statement of what you are saying?

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

Golfjack, do you really consider obedience and love a "work"? I would consider obedience and love a characteristic of those who love Christ and are 'truly' born again.

If obeying and loving is a work for you, then maybe you are living according to the old nature instead of the new.

Francisdesales (Joe): I enjoy reading your posts brother, you speak the word in full "context", without eliminating or trying to explain away the parts that are less pleasant.

Thanks, Destiny. I am happy that you are appreciating my posts and have found that they agree with your own take of the Scriptures on these subjects that are so important in our relationship with God.

Regards

 

[Fnerb]

The word "justification" and "sanctification" are used interchangeably in Scriptures. Justification doesn't JUST mean that first time we accept the Lord into our hearts. Wasn't David JUSTIFIED when he returned to God AFTER committing adultery? (as in Romans 4) Wasn't he justified BEFORE he committed the adultery? And please don't suggest he was justified WHILE committing adultery... God will have none of that.

Also, Abraham was considered justified on three separate occasions by the NT writers James, Romans, and Hebrews. These all refer to being justified over the course of one's life, not just that first moment. This makes perfect sense, as God tests us THROUGHOUT our lives, and He expects us to CONTINUE to choose Him, not just once.

I agree with you. But wouldn't our justificaton point back to that single point? Daily repentence - so important!

I guess I just struggle with putting works in-regard to the means of my salvation. I want to serve my LORD unconditionally and have His will be my will. I want to live my faith 100% of the time ... but I can't. I fail so often to be Christ-like. We all do. If my salvation were predicated on my good works, how could any of us be confident when we are faced with judgement that we could stand?!

Good works are an intrical part of faith, I am not doubting that. But if my being allowed to heaven is based upon my works (or anyones entrance) we would all fall short. I think I understand what you and unred are saying ... I think. (I guess not or we wouldn't be having this converstation) :wink: :

Whether we are justified by infusion, you should consider which is more powerful... Sin or Jesus Christ. Read Romans 5. IF sin is destructive to our CORE - then Jesus HEALS us to our core - unless you find that Jesus' sacrifice was not good enough to heal our inner selves, making sin more powerful than Christ.

Christ trumps all. I am the weak link in that chain.

 

[francisdesales]

Good works follow one who is born again. Until one is born again, all works are works of the flesh, not of the spirit. Those who are born again are created unto GOOD works as we are God's workmanship. Works of the flesh will burn up as wood, hay, and stubble. Who is GOOD other than God?

Solo,

All of those words are indeed found in Scriptures, but in some case, taken out of context. First, good works does NOT NECESSARILY follow those who are "born again". We are not on a conveyor belt! James makes this very clear in James 2. Yes, Eph 2 says we are born for good works - but will we indeed cooperate with the gifts that God has given us?? Paul merely says we cannot boast, because it is GOD who moves within us the will to do good (Phil 2) That is the choice open to us (as Deut. 30 tells us, for example). I think we have already discussed the misuse of 1 Cor 3 above, so I won't say anything further but to point it out again.

And finally, we are ALL called to be Holy - not in equality to God, but set apart from the world (the definition of "holy")

But according to him that hath called you, who is holy, be you also in all manner of conversation holy: 16Because it is written: You shall be holy, for I am holy. 1 Peter 1:15,16

[The Key is whether one is born of God or not. If one does not teach the teachings of Jesus Christ, they are deceivers, and they do not have God.

Actually, the Scriptures tell us that those who have LOVE are born of God, not those who follow "proper theology" - and yes, a Catholic is writing this :wink: .

Dearly beloved, let us love one another, for charity is of God. And every one that loveth, is born of God, and knoweth God. 8He that loveth not, knoweth not God: for God is charity 1 John 4:7,8

Yes, God desires us to be saved AND come to the knowledge of the truth. Certainly, doctrine is very important. I teach it every week to new converts. However, we must also remember that Christians EXPERIENCE God - doctrine helps to define our own experiences and whom God is (to the limited degree that we can know God in this life). However, it is clear that God will save those who turn to Him - and that those who love - as Paul defines it in 1 Cor 13, not our culture's definition - will indeed be saved. God is love. Those who have the Son, those who love, will have life. Very simple.

When someone asks whether you are saved, Solo, give them this verse:

He that hath the Son, hath life. He that hath not the Son, hath not life 1 John 5:12

Do you have the Son within you, manifest by your LOVE for others? Congratulations, brother, you are being saved. Pray that you continue to abide in Him and He in you.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I agree with you. But wouldn't our justificaton point back to that single point? Daily repentence - so important!

We can point to our initial justification, our initial calling to the Lord. Coming back to the Lord when we sin in the future, however, will not revolve around what happened during that past moment, perhaps 25 years ago, but rather whether we agree to "re-accept" Jesus into our hearts again after turning from Him. Thus, with King David, when we sin, we beg forgiveness of God from our current state. I would also add that once justified in the past, experience, it would seem, would make turning back to the Lord when we sin an "easier reconversion", but this is not always so.

I guess I just struggle with putting works in-regard to the means of my salvation. I want to serve my LORD unconditionally and have His will be my will. I want to live my faith 100% of the time ... but I can't. I fail so often to be Christ-like. We all do. If my salvation were predicated on my good works, how could any of us be confident when we are faced with judgement that we could stand?!

Hopefully, I have - and will reiterate again - that I do not believe nor am arguing for "works" salvation by saying that love is critical to salvation. I think we have to realize that Paul is speaking of the Jewish Law and other traditions that make people Jewish when he speaks of works. Paul is not speaking of human action, per sec, because this would contradict the Scriptures, esp. Jesus Christ. What IS Scriptural and throughout the Bible (OT and NT) is the realization that God is at the heart of everything we do of value. Thus, IF God is involved in our choosing to do good, how can we boast of that? How can I stand before God and boast of the good things that I did, demanding entrance into heaven, based on what I did under the divine influence of the Holy Spirit? The just Jews realized this, and so did Paul. Jesus says this in John 15 - we can do no good without Him.

By remembering that when we act, it is Christ who is ALSO present and moving our wills to please God, then we CANNOT boast of our own good deeds. They are merely return of God's gifts. As such, salvation remains grace, a freely given gift - although man's role is not disconnected to it. As St. Augustine wrote, "God does not save man without man".

Christ trumps all. I am the weak link in that chain.

So does God reform our inner self or not? Does sin ruin our inner self or not? Look at Romans 5 again, and see that Christ returns man to a new state. The inner man is also changed. We are not merely given a legal title, as God makes so what He declares. If God says I am righteous, I am righteous. No pretending.

Regards

 

[golfjack]

reply

Destiny, Please don't take my posts out of context. There is no way we can earn salvation before we are saved, and why do you think we have to earn it after we are saved? Maybe you should join the Catholic Church so they can put you under coondemnation.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[destiny]

Re: reply

Destiny, Please don't take my posts out of context. There is no way we can earn salvation before we are saved, and why do you think we have to earn it after we are saved? Maybe you should join the Catholic Church so they can put you under coondemnation.



May God bless, Golfjack

Golfjack, lets try to address the issues that are being discussed without throwing up anyones church affiliation, unless church affilliation is the topic. (and it's not)

The simplicity I am trying to get across is: Yes, we are saved by faith; but how does our faith manifest itself, or, what is the 'evidence' of our faith?

This is a (must) have...If your faith is genuine then it’s going to manifest itself! Thats why James said...
“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?â€Â

Thers nothing scary about that; If our faith is 'real', it will manifest itself through good works. It is not enough to offer lip service, a true conversion has life and fruit.
A 'dead faith' (oxymoron) has no works and is therefore, 'dead'.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

Destiny, Please don't take my posts out of context. There is no way we can earn salvation before we are saved, and why do you think we have to earn it after we are saved? Maybe you should join the Catholic Church so they can put you under coondemnation.

Golfjack,

Why are you so bitter? And why would joining the Catholic Church put one under condemnation? Could you give me some Scripture on that one?

And what is this talk about earning salvation? Who here has even mentioned such a thing? Perhaps you should read our posts a bit more carefully, as they try to explain the place that love has in salvation - and it does NOT earn anything.

If your son does the chores around your house, Golfjack, do you THEN love the boy? Or did you love him even before he did them? Doing chores (or being a faithful servant to God by loving others) is not earning anything - although we can be rightfully called a faithful servant by doing what is expected of us. Our inheritance is secure already as long as we do not become an unfaithful servant, rejecting our Father.

A faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall live also with him. If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us. 2 Tim 2:11,12

Regards

 

[Solo]

Good works follow one who is born again. Until one is born again, all works are works of the flesh, not of the spirit. Those who are born again are created unto GOOD works as we are God's workmanship. Works of the flesh will burn up as wood, hay, and stubble. Who is GOOD other than God?

Solo,

All of those words are indeed found in Scriptures, but in some case, taken out of context. First, good works does NOT NECESSARILY follow those who are "born again". We are not on a conveyor belt! James makes this very clear in James 2. Yes, Eph 2 says we are born for good works - but will we indeed cooperate with the gifts that God has given us?? Paul merely says we cannot boast, because it is GOD who moves within us the will to do good (Phil 2) That is the choice open to us (as Deut. 30 tells us, for example). I think we have already discussed the misuse of 1 Cor 3 above, so I won't say anything further but to point it out again.

Those who are born again WILL NECESSARILY do good works. You even quoted scripture that states this fact:

• Dearly beloved, let us love one another, for charity is of God. And every one that loveth, is born of God, and knoweth God. 8He that loveth not, knoweth not God: for God is charity 1 John 4:7,8

Love is a good work, and according to the Scripture that you posted, every one that loveth, is born of God, and knows God. Is that a fleshly love? No. It is a spiritual love. A big difference exists in fleshly love and spiritual love, and those of the flesh have no idea of the difference.

I will give you more verses of Scripture denoting that good works follow those that are born again:

• 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 1 John 2:3-6

And finally, we are ALL called to be Holy - not in equality to God, but set apart from the world (the definition of "holy")

But according to him that hath called you, who is holy, be you also in all manner of conversation holy: 16Because it is written: You shall be holy, for I am holy. 1 Peter 1:15,16

True

The Key is whether one is born of God or not. If one does not teach the teachings of Jesus Christ, they are deceivers, and they do not have God.

Actually, the Scriptures tell us that those who have LOVE are born of God, not those who follow "proper theology" - and yes, a Catholic is writing this :wink: .

Dearly beloved, let us love one another, for charity is of God. And every one that loveth, is born of God, and knoweth God. 8He that loveth not, knoweth not God: for God is charity 1 John 4:7,8

Yes, the Scriptures teach that those who have been born again are born of the Spirit, as the Spirit wills. Those that are born of God make a conscious act of repentence from sin turning from sin toward God, believing in the works of Jesus Christ through the revelation of the Spirit of God. Only then can the love of God begin its work of sanctification in one's life.

Do we love God by loving God or by keeping His commandments?

• If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
  John 15:10

How do we know God's commandments apart from knowing the"proper theology" or "proper teachings"?

• But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1 John 2:27

What does the Scripture say about those who do not follow "proper theology" or "proper teachings" of the Word of God?

• 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
  
  10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. 2 John 1:7-11

Are we to correct, reprove, and rebuke according to the Scriptures?

• Are we to reveal the false teachings that are leading people onto the path to hell? How is one to love those that are deliberately or ignorantly teaching false teachings? Why would one scrap the teachings of Jesus by purporting one stance of Jesus Christ which is love?[list:2f0e6]10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia. 11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth. 12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. 2 Corinthians 11:10-15

Let us take a couple of examples from Jesus Himself as to how we are to love those who teach false teachings.

• Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. Matthew 6:2
  
  And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. Matthew 6:5
  
  Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. Matthew 6:16
  
  7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Matthew 15:7-9
  
  And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? Matthew 16:3
  
  But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? Matthew 22:18
  
  But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Matthew 23:13
  
  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Matthew 23:14
  
  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Matthew 23:15
  
  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Matthew 23:23
  
  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Matthew 23:25
  
  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Matthew 23:27
  
  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, Matthew 23:29
  
  And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:51

[/list:u:2f0e6]

Yes, God desires us to be saved AND come to the knowledge of the truth. Certainly, doctrine is very important. I teach it every week to new converts. However, we must also remember that Christians EXPERIENCE God - doctrine helps to define our own experiences and whom God is (to the limited degree that we can know God in this life). However, it is clear that God will save those who turn to Him - and that those who love - as Paul defines it in 1 Cor 13, not our culture's definition - will indeed be saved. God is love. Those who have the Son, those who love, will have life. Very simple.

When someone asks whether you are saved, Solo, give them this verse:

He that hath the Son, hath life. He that hath not the Son, hath not life 1 John 5:12

Do you have the Son within you, manifest by your LOVE for others? Congratulations, brother, you are being saved. Pray that you continue to abide in Him and He in you.

Regards

Salvation is a free gift from God Almighty to those whom he calls and are chosen. Those that are not chosen are those that have rejected the path that God established for salvation. Many are decieved by doctrines of men, and are therefore drawn away from the truth, but those that the Holy Spirit inhabits are sealed by Him until the day of redemption as it is the work of God that saves, not the work of man. When someone asks me whether I am saved, I tell them that I am saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ's work on the cross, and by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; and by no works which I can do can save me or keep me saved, but by God's work alone am I saved. Then I give them the book of Ephesians and 1 John to read if they want these truths from the Scriptures. I also tell them that without the book of Romans, they will not understand the battle between the flesh and the born again spirit.

 

[stranger]

Can I presume that when you say "the flesh must die" and so forth, you are, along with the Bible, saying that the FLESHY DESIRES must die, not the literal body, our flesh, must die? Any temptations of the flesh must be defeated, crushed, killed. We are to choose the ways of the Spirit of God, not our own fleshy desires.

Is this an accurate statement of what you are saying?

Regards

Hi Francis,

Yes, 'fleshly desires' or in my usage 'flesh' simply refers to the 'fallen nature' and yes, it is not the literal modern day usage of flesh. I am against suicide.

Rom 8:1-14 sets out many of the parameters of flesh v Spirit

The case I present is the difference between mortifying the flesh that has died as opposed to mortifying flesh that has not died.

If the flesh has not died into whom were we baptised and how effective was that baptism? (how real also makes sense). A 'doctrinal pardon or reprieve' to the flesh is falsely issued to address the anomaly of actually being a slave to sin - continuing to partake of the fallen nature.

But the flesh has died because Christ died and specifically ' He who knew no sin became sin that we might become the righteousness of God.' On the basis of being baptised (Rom 6:1-4) into Christ we are then invited to partake of His divine nature.

Rom 8:13 is instructive in this context:

for if you live according to the flesh you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body you will live.

What does this say about OSAS or otherwise? Have we actually got past working out our salvation 'in fear and trembling'?

blessings: stranger

 

[Jay T]

In my opinion, this misunderstanding of Scripture comes from their inadequate definition of "salvation".

The term 'salvation' is misunderstood among the whole Christian world.

Salvation is much more than what the vast majority of the Christian world realizes, had they studied their Bible, which outlines the 'whole' plan of salvation.

 

[francisdesales]

Those who are born again WILL NECESSARILY do good works. You even quoted scripture that states this fact:
Dearly beloved, let us love one another, for charity is of God. And every one that loveth, is born of God, and knoweth God. 8He that loveth not, knoweth not God: for God is charity 1 John 4:7,8

Love is a good work, and according to the Scripture that you posted, every one that loveth, is born of God, and knows God. Is that a fleshly love? No. It is a spiritual love. A big difference exists in fleshly love and spiritual love, and those of the flesh have no idea of the difference.

Solo,

thank you for your lengthy response. I will try to give it the attention it deserves.

Now, the question regarding the first response, "Those who are born again will necessarily love" - I find this an axiom, a rule of faith, rather than an absolute or some sort of force that drives us inexorably to do something. The Epistle of John is full of such "rule of thumbs". For example, John also writes:

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 1 John 2:3-5

Now, can anyone say they ALWAYS keep the commandments? If I lie about something, have I now proven that I am not born of God? Such an interpretation would keep us in the dark whether we are from God or not and lead to scrupulousity. We should not have such a literal stance on every action that we take. Rather, John is discussing our general outlook in life. When we are obeying the commandments in our general, daily walk, we are proving that God abides in us to some degree. When we falter, this does not mean that everything in the past was pretend and we were actually NOT born of God!

Thus, following your interpretation, I would never know I was born of God, because once I sin, I am now doubt whether I EVER was born of God, even those "works of love" of the past - which now I may call "works of the flesh"...

I agree on your distinctions between fleshy and spiritual love.

Yes, the Scriptures teach that those who have been born again are born of the Spirit, as the Spirit wills. Those that are born of God make a conscious act of repentence from sin turning from sin toward God, believing in the works of Jesus Christ through the revelation of the Spirit of God. Only then can the love of God begin its work of sanctification in one's life.

True. God takes the initiative and no one can come to God unless God directs Him. And then, the work of sanctification begins - we must become holy to enter the kingdom.

Do we love God by loving God or by keeping His commandments?

I suppose obeying God's commandments are the result of our love of God. Obedience is an outward sign of the love in our hearts. Thus, our love is manifest by obeying the commandments. If we don't obey the commandments, we do not love, as Christ is not abiding within us when we disobey Him.

Are we to correct, reprove, and rebuke according to the Scriptures?

• Are we to reveal the false teachings that are leading people onto the path to hell? How is one to love those that are deliberately or ignorantly teaching false teachings? Why would one scrap the teachings of Jesus by purporting one stance of Jesus Christ which is love?

• 
  
  Of course we are to reveal false teachings. However, how do we know what is a false teaching when both sides quote the bible and interpret it differently? By the fruit of the teaching. False teachings will lead people, in general, to not love their neighbor. True teachings will lead people to love their neighbors. Thus, you will note that Paul and John and Peter (esp 2 Peter 2) and Jude point out that those who teach falsely can be noted by their fruits, by the way they act towards others.
  
  Also, we must note that there is a heirarchy of teachings. In other words, not all doctrine carries equal weight. In some matters, we MUST seek truth - such as regarding the Paschal Mystery of Jesus Christ, while in other matters, there is room for speculation, such as on the subject of angels or the doctrine of election. In all things, both Aquinas and Augustine note, we do in love. They merely are reflecting St. Peter:
  
  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 1 Peter 3:15
  
  I underlined the last section because we can also do this by arrogant pride. This sort of correction is not what God desires of us. We are to love, even to a fault.
  
  Now, to comment on some of your verses...
  
  Matthew 6 is discussing hypocrisy, not false teachings.
  
  Matthew 15 is also discussing hypocrisy - esp. the sanctioning of traditions that lead men away from God's commandments.
  
  As you continue to read Matthew 22 and 23, note again WHAT our Lord is criticizing... Is it false TEACHINGS or hypocritical TEACHERS? In Matthew 23:3, Jesus specifically tells us to OBEY those teachers. We are not to do what they do, their hypocritical works.
  
  The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. Mat 23:2b-3
  
  I take it you are quite aware of the difference between hypocrisy and false teachings. The former is particularly disgusting because these teachers teach correctly but do not follow their own teachings... Sort of like a teacher who teaches against the woes of adultery found in the arms of a woman who is not his wife...
  
  In the end, we are to correct out of love, not out of false superiority, especially when we find hypocrisy.
  
  

  Salvation is a free gift from God Almighty to those whom he calls and are chosen. Those that are not chosen are those that have rejected the path that God established for salvation. Many are decieved by doctrines of men, and are therefore drawn away from the truth, but those that the Holy Spirit inhabits are sealed by Him until the day of redemption as it is the work of God that saves, not the work of man.

  
  Being sealed by the Holy Spirit does not mean that our inheritance has already been secured, no matter what we do.
  
  For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Eph 5:5
  
  Again, this goes back to our previous discussion on the possibility of falling. Even St. Paul himself does not consider his eternal salvation automatically secured already (while he was alive)
  
  That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:10-14
  
  

  When someone asks me whether I am saved, I tell them that I am saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ's work on the cross, and by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; and by no works which I can do can save me or keep me saved, but by God's work alone am I saved. Then I give them the book of Ephesians and 1 John to read if they want these truths from the Scriptures. I also tell them that without the book of Romans, they will not understand the battle between the flesh and the born again spirit.

  
  Certainly a good answer - but why don't you refer others to the Gospels? Does Paul somehow explain salvation better than Christ? An aside, however. It is interesting that Paul hardly mentions the earthly Jesus and His works, besides the Eucharist to His death and Resurrection. Were there already written works available and Paul was concentrating on the culmination of Christ's works? In the end, at any rate, I find that the Gospels are the best school on humility, obedience, and love.
  
  Consider my tagline and the work of Jesus Christ as a total act of humility.
  
  Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Rom 8:13 is instructive in this context:

for if you live according to the flesh you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body you will live.

What does this say about OSAS or otherwise? Have we actually got past working out our salvation 'in fear and trembling'?

blessings: stranger

Hello Stranger,

Yes, a very fitting verse. Apparently, even those who have received the first installment of the Spirit COULD continue to live according to the flesh. Paul himself in the previous chapter tells us of his own battles with the flesh. While we are "dead to sin" and no longer slaves to sin, only our actions will prove this, not merely saying it. Seems this is a lengthy process in which the Spirit gradually forms us into "another" Christ, holy and acceptable to God the Father.

Regards

 

[golfjack]

reply

There is no contradiction between what Paul and Jesus said. Certainly Paul was led by the Spirit of God, just like we are led by the same Spirit. The Holy Spirit leads us by our spirits. We are not lead by our led in the natural realm ( emotions, and intellect). Just like the Holy Spirit testifies to our spirits that we are children of God.


Faith is about believing, confessing, and receiving. If we don't believe our faith will not work. If we don't confess our faith will not work. In order to receive we must have faith that works. Therefore, faith without works is dead. We must do something. For example if we see that people need food, it does no good to sit there and say we have faith and not do anything. We must add coressponding actions to our faith and it will work.



May God bless, Golfjack