I WAS WRONG.....

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

There is no contradiction between what Paul and Jesus said. Certainly Paul was led by the Spirit of God, just like we are led by the same Spirit. The Holy Spirit leads us by our spirits. We are not lead by our led in the natural realm ( emotions, and intellect). Just like the Holy Spirit testifies to our spirits that we are children of God.


Faith is about believing, confessing, and receiving. If we don't believe our faith will not work. If we don't confess our faith will not work. In order to receive we must have faith that works. Therefore, faith without works is dead. We must do something. For example if we see that people need food, it does no good to sit there and say we have faith and not do anything. We must add coressponding actions to our faith and it will work.

So faith alone does not save. A faith working in love saves - present tense - correct? Since our faith is not something only set in the past, but a constant application of our belief, confession, and reception, would you then agree that faith is ongoing and not a one-time event?

Regards

 

[golfjack]

reply

Fran. Of course faith can grow. Everyone has a measure of faith, and some more than others. Our faith based on God's Word saves us and grows everytime we present a need to God in Boldness of what His Word says He can do for us ( His will). Our starting point is when we trust that God saverd us by His sacrifice on the cross. It's always the blood. Just trust it and allow the Holy Spirit to operate in our spirits. I don't know about you, but my faith to be saved is based on what God for me over 2000 thousand years ago. You see, God is in everyone one us who believes. He that is in me is greater than he that is the ruler of the World. If He is in me, then Love is in me because God is love. Believers have the nature of God in them. Believers must look at their real man and express that inward man in what God speaks to us in our outward man. I am a new creature in Christ Jesus, old things have passed away, and all things are new. One old thing is our sin nature. After being born agaiin we take on the nature of God. Essentially, before we were saved we had the nature of Satan, but now we have the nature of God. I could go on and on, but will not because I suspect no one has ever preached this to you. I do know what I am talking about, but it is hard to express my beliefs on this forum. It would be better to talk to people in person. I have been called by God into the five-fold Ministry as an Evangelist, and am doing my best to fulfill my calling.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Veritas]

So faith alone does not save. A faith working in love saves - present tense - correct?

Perhaps we really need a new and better word:

A verb, like "to Faithe" or Faithing.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

Fran. Of course faith can grow. Everyone has a measure of faith, and some more than others. Our faith based on God's Word saves us and grows everytime we present a need to God in Boldness of what His Word says He can do for us ( His will).

So with this in mind, that faith grows, etc., what about OSAS? Do we merely look at the faith we had 20 years ago, or does the faith we have today have any bearing whatsoever on our spiritual lives and salvation?

Our starting point is when we trust that God saverd us by His sacrifice on the cross. It's always the blood. Just trust it and allow the Holy Spirit to operate in our spirits. I don't know about you, but my faith to be saved is based on what God for me over 2000 thousand years ago. You see, God is in everyone one us who believes. He that is in me is greater than he that is the ruler of the World. If He is in me, then Love is in me because God is love.

Of course. And God continues to bring men to Him. His ministry to mankind continues even to this day.

Believers have the nature of God in them.

You are going to have to qualify that, as we don't become divine.

Believers must look at their real man and express that inward man in what God speaks to us in our outward man. I am a new creature in Christ Jesus, old things have passed away, and all things are new.

Yes, wonderful words until you read Romans 7 and realize that concupiscence STILL exists in man, even the "saved" man. And thus, we work out our salvation in fear and trembling, knowing full well that we can falter.

Essentially, before we were saved we had the nature of Satan, but now we have the nature of God.

We have the nature of Satan?

I could go on and on, but will not because I suspect no one has ever preached this to you.

While I have heard many false teachings, some way out there, I have heard most of your musings before and find them lacking. Still. Now, it appears you are contradicting yourself with your definition of faith vs. your idea of OSAS...

I do know what I am talking about, but it is hard to express my beliefs on this forum. It would be better to talk to people in person. I have been called by God into the five-fold Ministry as an Evangelist, and am doing my best to fulfill my calling.

I am not familiar with "Five-fold ministry". Is that found in Scritpure somewhere? Who specifically do you feel called to reach out to as an Evangelist? Are you reaching out to people who know little about Scriptures? I ask because your ideas so far are easily refuted from Scriptures. I suppose people who are ignorant of Scriptures will be taken in by some of your false teachings.

For example, I read this last night while praying the Divine Liturgy of the Hours, a practice that may have served you well in Catholicism if you had only practiced it ...

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven: Heb 12:22-25

Another example of the Scriptures showing your teachings to be wrong, this time refering to your belief that the spirit of man is not saved or perfected, thus creating a false separation in man...

If you would have practiced your faith as a Catholic better, you would have read this passage about once a month, on the 4th Sunday Evening of the Psalter...

Sadly, it appears you didn't read much Scripture as a Catholic. Perhaps that is why you have been taken in so easily by false teachings.

Regards

 

[golfjack]

reply

The one thing I can assure you of Fran. is that I will never go back to the Catholic Church. Your ignorance of Scripture shows me you know very little. You don't even know that God has set forth a five-fold Ministry, and that is some are called to be Pastors, Preachers, Evanglists, Prophets, and Apostles.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Jay T]

Re: reply

There is no contradiction between what Paul and Jesus said.

Really ?
I know that to be true....BUT let's see how you harmonize these two Bible verses:

#1.) Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
2:15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

#2.) Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

One, the Christian world uses to show that the 7th day sabbath is gone.

And the other shows that the 7th day sabbath cannot pass away UNTIL heavean and earth passes away first.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

The one thing I can assure you of Fran. is that I will never go back to the Catholic Church. Your ignorance of Scripture shows me you know very little. You don't even know that God has set forth a five-fold Ministry, and that is some are called to be Pastors, Preachers, Evanglists, Prophets, and Apostles.

That's too bad about the Catholic Church. How a person can walk away from the Eucharist, Christ's total gift of Himself, is beyond me. It's one thing to have never experienced Christ in the Eucharist, as many here have not. But you?

Thank you for the explanation on your ministry. Now Golfjack, how was I supposed to know that the "Five-fold ministry" that you were refering to was "pastors, preachers, evangelists, prophets, and apostles"? I thought you were refering to a proper name - like Four Square. I don't belong to your particular sect, I don't get the newsletter from them, nor have I ever heard it called that in the Bible. Sorry I am not up to speed on your sect's cliches.

As to my "ignorance of Scriptures", I believe I have amply proven that presumption incorrect. You may ask others here on this forum if they believe that, if you desire. Unfortunately, I believe you are the one who makes claims on Scriptures that you can't back up. Despite your supposed vast knowledge of Scriptures, obviously more than mine (because I'm Catholic, of course, I am not able to read the Bible, apparently), you make claims about man's spirit that are simply not true. Your ignoring me merely shows me your theology is faulty and you got nothing to say about your error.

Furthermore, your continuing condescending tone shows the fruits of your faith in God. Such arrogance when shown wrong is quite unbecoming of a Christian. Is that the "spirit" that you claim abides in you?

Regards

 

[golfjack]

reply

Fran. Check out Eph. 4:11, then check out Romans 7 and 8. you will find out what the sinful nature of the flesh is and in chapter 8, you will find the remedy, which is obviously referring to the Holy Spirit residing in our spirit. Please note Romans 8:8. Those in the flesh cannot please God and in verse 9 when Paul talks about the3 Spirit dwelling in you, that is our spirits that the Holy Spirit dwells in. Our minds are renewed day by day and our flesh will die, and that is when we receive our brand new glorified bodies.

Why don't really dig deep into the scriptures to find out what they mean?



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Solo]

Those who are born again WILL NECESSARILY do good works. You even quoted scripture that states this fact:
Dearly beloved, let us love one another, for charity is of God. And every one that loveth, is born of God, and knoweth God. 8He that loveth not, knoweth not God: for God is charity 1 John 4:7,8

Love is a good work, and according to the Scripture that you posted, every one that loveth, is born of God, and knows God. Is that a fleshly love? No. It is a spiritual love. A big difference exists in fleshly love and spiritual love, and those of the flesh have no idea of the difference.

Solo,

thank you for your lengthy response. I will try to give it the attention it deserves.

Now, the question regarding the first response, "Those who are born again will necessarily love" - I find this an axiom, a rule of faith, rather than an absolute or some sort of force that drives us inexorably to do something. The Epistle of John is full of such "rule of thumbs". For example, John also writes:

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 1 John 2:3-5

Now, can anyone say they ALWAYS keep the commandments? If I lie about something, have I now proven that I am not born of God? Such an interpretation would keep us in the dark whether we are from God or not and lead to scrupulousity. We should not have such a literal stance on every action that we take. Rather, John is discussing our general outlook in life. When we are obeying the commandments in our general, daily walk, we are proving that God abides in us to some degree. When we falter, this does not mean that everything in the past was pretend and we were actually NOT born of God!

Thus, following your interpretation, I would never know I was born of God, because once I sin, I am now doubt whether I EVER was born of God, even those "works of love" of the past - which now I may call "works of the flesh"...

I agree on your distinctions between fleshy and spiritual love.

It is imperative to understand the truth behind being born of the flesh and being born of the Spirit. All individuals are born of the flesh, but only those that repent, believe, and follow Jesus Christ are born of God, born of the Spirit, born again. It is those who are born of God that will see and enter the Kingdom of God. Those that are born of the flesh are born of the flesh one time and one time only; those born of the Spirit are born of the Spirit one time and one time only. Any disagreement with these statements will cause a disagreement in all things spiritual between individuals discussing God's Salvation.

Jesus states, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

The flesh is sold under sin and is corrupt and mortal until the day that Jesus returns. At that time the flesh will put on incorruption and immortality. The New Creature that is born of God does not sin while in the flesh, nor can it sin. That which is born of God cannot sin.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:8-10

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:14-25

A Christian believer is one who is born of the flesh and born of the Spirit. The sinful flesh coexists with the non-sinful spirit, and these two creatures determine moment by moment which law they will follow. When the non-sinful spirit reigns on the throne of self, sin is not accomplished, and righteousness reigns; when the sinful flesh reigns on the throne of self, sin is accomplished and evil reigns.

Those who are not born of God are only born of the flesh, and they can only do the goodness of the flesh which according to Jesus is not good. Jesus said that there is none good, but God.

Yes, the Scriptures teach that those who have been born again are born of the Spirit, as the Spirit wills. Those that are born of God make a conscious act of repentence from sin turning from sin toward God, believing in the works of Jesus Christ through the revelation of the Spirit of God. Only then can the love of God begin its work of sanctification in one's life.

True. God takes the initiative and no one can come to God unless God directs Him. And then, the work of sanctification begins - we must become holy to enter the kingdom.

We are in agreement.

Do we love God by loving God or by keeping His commandments?

I suppose obeying God's commandments are the result of our love of God. Obedience is an outward sign of the love in our hearts. Thus, our love is manifest by obeying the commandments. If we don't obey the commandments, we do not love, as Christ is not abiding within us when we disobey Him.

Those that abide in Jesus Christ have an opportunity to obey or not to obey depending on whether they are walking in the flesh or walking in the born again spirit. Those that walk according to the flesh are walking in disobedience to Jesus Christ. Those that walk according to the born again spirit are walking in obedience to Jesus Christ.

Unbelievers have no choice to walk in the spirit as they have not been born of God. They will only be born of God when they repent, believe, and follow Jesus Christ.

Are we to correct, reprove, and rebuke according to the Scriptures?

• Are we to reveal the false teachings that are leading people onto the path to hell? How is one to love those that are deliberately or ignorantly teaching false teachings? Why would one scrap the teachings of Jesus by purporting one stance of Jesus Christ which is love?

• 
  Of course we are to reveal false teachings. However, how do we know what is a false teaching when both sides quote the bible and interpret it differently? By the fruit of the teaching. False teachings will lead people, in general, to not love their neighbor. True teachings will lead people to love their neighbors. Thus, you will note that Paul and John and Peter (esp 2 Peter 2) and Jude point out that those who teach falsely can be noted by their fruits, by the way they act towards others.
  
  Also, we must note that there is a heirarchy of teachings. In other words, not all doctrine carries equal weight. In some matters, we MUST seek truth - such as regarding the Paschal Mystery of Jesus Christ, while in other matters, there is room for speculation, such as on the subject of angels or the doctrine of election. In all things, both Aquinas and Augustine note, we do in love. They merely are reflecting St. Peter:
  
  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 1 Peter 3:15
  
  I underlined the last section because we can also do this by arrogant pride. This sort of correction is not what God desires of us. We are to love, even to a fault.
  
  Now, to comment on some of your verses...
  
  Matthew 6 is discussing hypocrisy, not false teachings.
  
  Matthew 15 is also discussing hypocrisy - esp. the sanctioning of traditions that lead men away from God's commandments.
  
  As you continue to read Matthew 22 and 23, note again WHAT our Lord is criticizing... Is it false TEACHINGS or hypocritical TEACHERS? In Matthew 23:3, Jesus specifically tells us to OBEY those teachers. We are not to do what they do, their hypocritical works.
  
  The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. Mat 23:2b-3
  
  I take it you are quite aware of the difference between hypocrisy and false teachings. The former is particularly disgusting because these teachers teach correctly but do not follow their own teachings... Sort of like a teacher who teaches against the woes of adultery found in the arms of a woman who is not his wife...
  
  In the end, we are to correct out of love, not out of false superiority, especially when we find hypocrisy.

• 
  It is a definite that instructing, reproving, and rebuking is to be done in love. Jesus did all that he did in love, however, there are those in this forum who would berate another for standing firm on the word and calling another out for teaching lies, heresies, false teachings, etc.
  Jesus and the Apostles were direct and straight forward in their proclamation of the truth as they stood firm on their faith. Many place we are shown where sheep in wolves clothing are called hypocrites, vipers, whited sepulchers, etc. for teaching lies against the teachings of Jesus Christ.
  
  I see the antichrist riding into the world by being acclaimed by the false prophet that he is God. I believe that this false prophet will be the one acclaimed by the eccumenical body of religion pushed onto the world. I believe that the Roman Catholic Institution will be the main religious organization behind this One World Religion.
  
  You would disagree with me on the basis that you are Roman Catholic, not on the basis of the truths that I have been taught by the Holy Spirit these last 23 years.
  
  Do you want proof? Only the Holy Spirit can prove this to you. I can not.
  
  

  Salvation is a free gift from God Almighty to those whom he calls and are chosen. Those that are not chosen are those that have rejected the path that God established for salvation. Many are decieved by doctrines of men, and are therefore drawn away from the truth, but those that the Holy Spirit inhabits are sealed by Him until the day of redemption as it is the work of God that saves, not the work of man.

  Being sealed by the Holy Spirit does not mean that our inheritance has already been secured, no matter what we do.

  Yes we do know that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption; not by our works, but by the works of God. Those that are born of God are born of the Spirit one time, never to be unborn of God. A believer is born of the flesh and is also born of the Spirit.
  
  

  For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Eph 5:5

  There will be no flesh or blood to inherit the kingdom of God. That is why the flesh of those born of God must be changed at Jesus' return. The New Creature born of God is signed, sealed, and delivered into the inheritance given by the promise of God.
  
  There is no other interpretation for the verse of Scripture below:
  
  12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:1214
  
  

  Again, this goes back to our previous discussion on the possibility of falling. Even St. Paul himself does not consider his eternal salvation automatically secured already (while he was alive)
  
  That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:10-14

  Paul is the Apostle that wrote the letter to the Ephesians where he highlighted the portion of truth that depicts that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
  
  Paul also recognizes in the entire context of the Scripture that he gave to us in Philippians that we are in a vile body, and he teaches that we as believers will fashioned as the glorious body of Jesus Christ.
  
  9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. 17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Philippians 3:9-21[/b]
  
  

  When someone asks me whether I am saved, I tell them that I am saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ's work on the cross, and by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; and by no works which I can do can save me or keep me saved, but by God's work alone am I saved. Then I give them the book of Ephesians and 1 John to read if they want these truths from the Scriptures. I also tell them that without the book of Romans, they will not understand the battle between the flesh and the born again spirit.

  Certainly a good answer - but why don't you refer others to the Gospels? Does Paul somehow explain salvation better than Christ? An aside, however. It is interesting that Paul hardly mentions the earthly Jesus and His works, besides the Eucharist to His death and Resurrection. Were there already written works available and Paul was concentrating on the culmination of Christ's works? In the end, at any rate, I find that the Gospels are the best school on humility, obedience, and love.

  The entire Scripture is for our growth during justification and sanctification. The entire Scripture is inspired of God, not just the gospels, but the entire Scripture. Paul's writings are considered Scripture by Peter.
  
  15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16
  
  Do not let yourself be deceived that one portion of the Scriptures is more important than other portions. That is a trick of the devil.
  
  16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16-17
  
  
  What is your teaching concerning being born of God? What would you share with them from the gospels? What is your teaching concerning ones assurance of salvation? What is your teaching concerning how one is to be saved?

 

[mutzrein]

Perhaps we really need a new and better word:

A verb, like "to Faithe" or Faithing.

Wodabout "faither" - for someone who is doing the faith thing :wink:

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

Fran. Check out Eph. 4:11,

Thank you, I utilize those verses when someone presses me about Sola Scriptura, as they refute that.

then check out Romans 7 and 8. you will find out what the sinful nature of the flesh is and in chapter 8, you will find the remedy, which is obviously referring to the Holy Spirit residing in our spirit. Please note Romans 8:8. Those in the flesh cannot please God

"those in the flesh" refers to those who follow the fleshy ways, one's desires to satisfy oneself. John refers to the "world" while Paul calls it the "flesh", but they both refer to one's own selfish desires that are not in synch with God.

For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 1 John 2:16

You are misinterpreting such verses when you try to separate the human body from the human spirit. When we follow the flesh or the world, we are not following the Holy Spirit.

Our minds are renewed day by day and our flesh will die, and that is when we receive our brand new glorified bodies.

Again, you misinterpret Scriptures. Our physical flesh doesn't die when we become more holy in this life. Our fleshy desires die. The new man desires to please God through faith working in love rather than pleasing ourself through lust of the eyes, pride of life and lust of the flesh.

Why don't really dig deep into the scriptures to find out what they mean?

Good advice for yourself, judging from your responses the last few days...


Regards

 

[francisdesales]

It is imperative to understand the truth behind being born of the flesh and being born of the Spirit. All individuals are born of the flesh, but only those that repent, believe, and follow Jesus Christ are born of God, born of the Spirit, born again. It is those who are born of God that will see and enter the Kingdom of God. Those that are born of the flesh are born of the flesh one time and one time only; those born of the Spirit are born of the Spirit one time and one time only. Any disagreement with these statements will cause a disagreement in all things spiritual between individuals discussing God's Salvation.

I have no problem with this statement. We also believe that we can only be baptized once, born again with water and the Spirit once in this life. But again, I tell you that this doesn't guarantee our entering into heaven.

The flesh is sold under sin and is corrupt and mortal until the day that Jesus returns. At that time the flesh will put on incorruption and immortality. The New Creature that is born of God does not sin while in the flesh, nor can it sin. That which is born of God cannot sin.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:8-10

We've been down this road before. John's manner of writing is not to be taken as an absolute, but as an axiom, a rule of thumb that describes a general way of lilfe. John also writes to "born again Christians" the following:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

John recognizes the Christians sin - but have an advocate in Jesus Christ. Those who claim they are sinless are liars and Christ's word is not in them...Your interpretation would contradict with 1 John 1.

A Christian believer is one who is born of the flesh and born of the Spirit. The sinful flesh coexists with the non-sinful spirit, and these two creatures determine moment by moment which law they will follow. When the non-sinful spirit reigns on the throne of self, sin is not accomplished, and righteousness reigns; when the sinful flesh reigns on the throne of self, sin is accomplished and evil reigns.

Those who are not born of God are only born of the flesh, and they can only do the goodness of the flesh which according to Jesus is not good. Jesus said that there is none good, but God.

While I agree with what you say, I also will note that Jesus says WE can do no good without Him. As I mentioned before, man is fashioned to be made holy by God because of the transformation caused by the Spirit.

Those that abide in Jesus Christ have an opportunity to obey or not to obey depending on whether they are walking in the flesh or walking in the born again spirit. Those that walk according to the flesh are walking in disobedience to Jesus Christ. Those that walk according to the born again spirit are walking in obedience to Jesus Christ.

Unbelievers have no choice to walk in the spirit as they have not been born of God. They will only be born of God when they repent, believe, and follow Jesus Christ

I agree... But we should be open to the fact that the Spirit of God blows where He wills, and that even the pagans can follow the Law written on their hearts (cf Rom 2). Thus, we should be careful about judging others by what organization they belong to, but rather, what is the fruits of their works.

Jesus did all that he did in love, however, there are those in this forum who would berate another for standing firm on the word and calling another out for teaching lies, heresies, false teachings, etc.

It is one thing to "call another out for teaching lies" and another to condemn someone to hell because they don't agree with another's particular interpretion of Scriptures. While Scripture ITSELF is inspired by God, one's own interpretation is NOT. It takes careful discernment to understand the depths of Scripture - one should not be so quick to judge another's point of view - as the Spirit of God does not fully reveal Himself to an individual. This knowledge comes gradually as part of our growth. It is then not unusual that some may understand particular portions of Scripture better than others. As such, when the Spirit leads us, we should readjust our particular thoughts and ideas on Scripture's teachings.

Also, it is not an act of humility to berate someone who may not be as advanced in Scriptural learning as another. Some are at different points of sanctification. As such, we are called to be patient with others - rather than condemning them.

I see the antichrist riding into the world by being acclaimed by the false prophet that he is God. I believe that this false prophet will be the one acclaimed by the eccumenical body of religion pushed onto the world. I believe that the Roman Catholic Institution will be the main religious organization behind this One World Religion.

You would disagree with me on the basis that you are Roman Catholic, not on the basis of the truths that I have been taught by the Holy Spirit these last 23 years.

You are certainly entitled to believe that. Sadly, you are being misled because of your prejudice against the Catholic Church. However, the bible says that the antichrist is one who will deny that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Father and that Jesus Christ has NOT come in the flesh. Do you really believe that the Catholic Church has EVER taught that???

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 1 Jo 2:22

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 Jo 4:3

As to a "One World Religion", I don't see the Catholic Church behind that, either. While the Church preaches ecumenicism, this does not mean that we cut out our own beliefs so that we can all join together as one big happy family, ignoring the very real differences that continue to exist. This is relativism, one that the current Pope has written against often enough. The current Pope also wrote an encyclical called "Dominus Iesus" less than 10 years ago that reaffirmed that Jesus Christ was the ONLY way to salvation. While ecumenicism opens the doors of understanding to other faiths, recognizing that there is some truth to ALL religions, the Church will not put aside the task given to it by Christ Himself - and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Yes we do know that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption;

Your interpretation of being sealed until the day of redemption means that such verses as Hebrews 10:26-27 contradict. Does the Spirit give the truth or not?

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Heb 10:26-27

There are a number of such verses in Scriptures - also in the Old Testament. Being sealed doesn't mean we will enter heaven. Recall Saul of the Old Testament?

There will be no flesh or blood to inherit the kingdom of God. That is why the flesh of those born of God must be changed at Jesus' return. The New Creature born of God is signed, sealed, and delivered into the inheritance given by the promise of God.

You are making a connection that is not there. 1 Cor 15 describes that the natural flesh will not inherit heaven because nothing corruptible shall enter it. Flesh is not a permanent thing. The spirit is because it has no parts that will waste away or are subject to decay. Thus, our natural bodies must become something else - GLORIFIED flesh, as Christ's own human flesh became. This has nothing to do with "being sealed and delivered by the Holy Spirit". This is merely a discussion to the Corinthians on the mechanics of the bodily resurrection, not a dissertation on how all men who declare Jesus as Lord will enter eternal heaven...

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1 Cor 15:49-51

The same applies to Phillipians. Our current fleshy, corruptible self will be changed to an incorruptible self. This describes our material condition that will exist in heaven, not a guarantee that ALL will enter heaven.

The entire Scripture is for our growth during justification and sanctification. The entire Scripture is inspired of God, not just the gospels, but the entire Scripture. Paul's writings are considered Scripture by Peter.

I never said anything to that effect. Of course the entire Scriputres are inspired, including the Old Testament Deuterocannonicals. I realize that Paul's writings are inspired and never said anything to the effect that they weren't. I merely asked you why study the often-confusing writings of Paul FIRST, when Jesus Christ is God in visible form? If you want a relationship with God, if you want to know who God is, then you should study Jesus Christ and the Gospels FIRST.

Do not let yourself be deceived that one portion of the Scriptures is more important than other portions. That is a trick of the devil.

Apparently, you seem to believe that Paul is more important. However, sending a new believer to Paul can be a big mistake. Consider this:

even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction 2 Peter 3:15b-16

Now, why would you send a new Christian to read what Scripture ITSELF calls "hard to understand, which they that are learned and unstable wrest...unto their own destruction"?

I find this a bit disconcerting, like giving a child a book of matches in the physical realm...

What is your teaching concerning being born of God? What would you share with them from the gospels? What is your teaching concerning ones assurance of salvation? What is your teaching concerning how one is to be saved?

That would take up a lot of bandwidth to cover in one post. If I was to look to one verse, I would look to 1 John 5:12, as I have already related. To give you a general idea on the rest, I would show that God desires a familial relationship with man - that His entire salvation plan is based upon this desire of God. By showing that God is love and is reaching out to us, man is expected to respond in a covenantal relationship. As such, a covenant requires a committment, one of loving obedience. To be saved requires that we respond to the gifts that God gives the individual. Thus, we are expected to repent and convert - conversion means to change our life, not just make a one-time statement. This is just a quick basic layout.

Regards

 

[Jay T]

First thing people need to do, is to learn.....what Salvation really is !

 

[Solo]

First thing people need to do, is to learn.....what Salvation really is !

I agree.

 

[Jay T]

I agree.

OH ?
You haven't so far !

 

[francisdesales]

OH ?
You haven't so far !

Here come the fireworks!

:smt021

Good luck and regards

 

[Solo]

[quote="Jay T":6b3e0]
First thing people need to do, is to learn.....what Salvation really is !

I agree.

OH ?
You haven't so far !
[/quote:6b3e0]
I do agree that the first thing that people need to do is to learn what Salvation really is, but I do not agree that you have a correct understanding of salvation. Your salvation is based on how good you can be in this world hoping that through Jesus you can be as righteous as Him since you became a believer. The problem is, that you still sin, and you live in a fantasy world where you believe that you are part of those that believe the truth. You have shown many times that you do not understand salvation (justification), sanctification, life after death, sheol/hades, the resurrection, etc. etc. etc.

Until you understand who you are in the light of Jesus Christ, you will continue in your woeful struggle hoping to be right with the Lord.

 

[Jay T]

I do agree that the first thing that people need to do is to learn what Salvation really is, but I do not agree that you have a correct understanding of salvation.

Jesus Christ knows what Salvation is......'go and sin no more' (John 5:14 & 8:11)

Your salvation is based on how good you can be in this world hoping that through Jesus you can be as righteous as Him since you became a believer.

See .....you just proved you have no idea, what I know the Bible is saying to me.

The problem is, that you still sin,

I see, then you have set yourself up as my Judge ?
And, all this time I thought God was the Judge.

and you live in a fantasy world where you believe that you are part of those that believe the truth.

Well, the Bible does provide the test as to who has the truth of God ......
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

And....God describes HIS people as those who keep the Law of God, thru their faith in Jesus Christ.......
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Until you understand who you are in the light of Jesus Christ, you will continue in your woeful struggle hoping to be right with the Lord.

Just remember....those who DO NOT keep the commandments....DON'T Know Jesus Christ.....
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

I'll let you be the Judge, of that Bible text.

 

[Fnerb]

Just remember....those who DO NOT keep the commandments....DON'T Know Jesus Christ.....
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

I'll let you be the Judge, of that Bible text.

Well you'll probably side-step this entirely but this means that

A) Jay T doesn't sin and therefore perfect

or

B) Jay T doesn't know Jesus.

:smt102

 

[destiny]

I hear a lot of railing against JayT for keeping the commandments, but I have yet to hear anyone refute the scripture he keeps posting as his reason for keeping them...

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

It would be nice to see someone explain to JayT why the above verses are a lie, if thats what you believe...instead of constantly attack his salvation.