If God Loved everyone !

[follower of Christ]

For God so loved the "WORLD"
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
That the 'world' God loves and that Christ died for ISNT just this 'elect' but also those who will reject Him and eventually fall into eternal torment because of THEIR decision to do so.


Supporting Evidence
Below we see that this 'world' includes BOTH the condemned AND those who believe and are not condemned

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the basis for judgment: The light has come into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light because their actions were evil. For everyone who practices wickedness hates the light and does not come to the light, so that his actions may not be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that all may see that his actions have been done in God."
(Joh 3 )KJV)

The context of the passage shows clearly that it is 'the WORLD' that is being spoken of...and this 'world' very clearly includes those who believe and are not condemned, and those who believe not and ARE condemned because they do not believe.
Whosoever of the WORLD that God LOVES that believes is not condemned.

Nowhere does this passage say that Jesus died ONLY for the elect or those who believe. It shows just the opposite, that He was sent into the world NOT to condemn it, but to offer the world salvation.

ALL in the WORLD were offered salvation. Those who CHOOSE to not believe in Jesus Christ will be condemned because of that choice.

=========================

DOES man have the CHOICE to REJECT God ?
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this article
Simply to show that scripture does support the idea that man does have free will to reject God both before and after having come under this covenant.

Supporting Evidence

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.
(Revelation 3:20 MKJV)

And open the door -
This must be his own act, receiving power for this purpose from his offended Lord, who will not break open the door; he will make no forcible entry.
-Adam Clarke

And open the door -
As one would when a stranger or friend stood and knocked. The meaning here is simply, if anyone will admit me; that is, receive me as a friend. The act of receiving him is as voluntary on our part as it is when we rise and open the door to one who knocks.
-Albert Barnes

and open the door;
or show a readiness for the coming of Christ, look and wait for it, and be like such that will receive him with a welcome:
-John Gill

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:21

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Heb 10:26-39 KJV)

The statement "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition" is entirely absurd *IF* 'them' had not actually 'draw back' to perdition.
And the writers EXHORTATION TO these believing Hebrews is VOID of ANY and ALL meaning in REFERRING to these who had 'DRAWN BACK' in his warning to these believers *IF* they could not do the very same thing.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame . For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(Heb 6:4-9 KJV)

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
(Heb 3:1-19 KJV)

2.0
Does man play a part in his 'election' and salvation ?

Therefore, brothers, rather be diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things, you shall never fall.
(2 Peter 1:10 MKJV)

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is working in you, both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
(Philippians 2:12-13 EMTV)

 

[shad]

savedbygrace, if you won't answer my other questions, how about this one: "Are you good with the idea that god makes people that have no other choice but to end up in a tormenting hell, just so a FEW elect will see how lucky they were? Do you see that as ethical? Why or why not?

God is merciful and Just, He will make sure everyone gets absolutely equal chance either in this life or after they are dead physically.

Thats your philosophy, not scriptural..

This is whole contextual reasoning of the Bible. We have to consider God's character when we read and reason with the Bible, friend.

.

 

[follower of Christ]

This is whole contextual reasoning of the Bible. We have to consider God's character when we read and reason with the Bible, friend.

.

Amen and Amen!

It was the marriage thing that really got me getting into study even deeper than before. I never realized thru all those years of study how marriage is so intertwined into everything else in scripture.
I noticed pretty quickly that Gods character...His personality...understanding who He is and how He sees things, is so very crucial to understanding even the simplest of precepts in the scriptures.

Once I realized that some much of His law actually started making sense. I started seeing a side of parts of the law that seemed to be without meaning before that. Like reading from a 2nd graders perspective then from a college grads view...so much more depth and meaning when we see things how God is seeing them (as best we are able, that is).

One crucial concept that really started it all for me was this;

But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' .....
(Mat 9:13 EMTV)

But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' ....
(Mat 12:7 EMTV)

Id read that so many times I was numb to it, I think. But then lights came on one day some years ago and suddenly I found myself seeing things from a whole new perspective.

We cannot really KNOW the scriptures until we begin to understand HIM.

.

 

[savedbygrace57]

shad:

This is whole contextual reasoning of the Bible. We have to consider God's character when we read and reason with the Bible, friend.

You the one in error..

 

[shad]

shad:

This is whole contextual reasoning of the Bible. We have to consider God's character when we read and reason with the Bible, friend.

You the one in error..

Why? Would you elaborate?

 

[glorydaz]

hawkins says:

Rather it only says that Jesus has achieved His mission on earth to bring those willing to repent to God.

It does not say that, you must cant read well sir..

The same can be said to your view. Bible reading is correct only when consistency is made through the whole Bible.

sbg is consistant...all words are speaking of the elect if they're good, and satan's seed if they're not.
It's a personal translation...you won't find it on the book shelves. :halo

 

[savedbygrace57]

shad:

This is whole contextual reasoning of the Bible. We have to consider God's character when we read and reason with the Bible, friend.

You the one in error..

Why? Would you elaborate?

Whats to eleaborate ? You made a statement that you cannot prove by scripture which was this:

God is merciful and Just, He will make sure everyone gets absolutely equal chance either in this life or after they are dead physically.

 

[Orion]

savedbygrace, . . . have you blocked me, are you ignoring me, . . . or do you not have a good answer to the question that I posed to you???? What up??

 

[mondar]

Do you picture the punishment as being for just sins in this life? Of course even in eternity, the rebellion and sin will never stop.

Can one rebel against a god who never cared about them anyway? Would it even matter if they didn't? See next part below...

Are you missing the flow of thought here? You are changing your objection. You were presenting an argument that it is unjust for God to punish man for a limited amount of sin with eternal punishment. I challenged your idea that our sin is only in this life. I suggested that our rebellion does not stop after this life, but that sin and rebellion is also eternal, as the punishment is eternal. Is not your reply non-sequitur?

I am not seeing it. I dont see how you believed as I do. . . .Orion, I cannot help but doubt that when you gave up your Christianity, that your earlier Christianity was flawed anyway. I guess it is typical of Calvinists to think such thoughts. Yet I still cannot help but think these so called reversions show formerly flawed theology....
I think we agree on one thing. We both intend to go where we as individual think the evidence leads.

I wasn't as you believe yourself to be, . . . one who has a defined "personal relationship with Jesus". I certainly believed everything the bible stated and was excited about it, . . . but though I tried for literally years, . . . I never had any sort of connection that could have been called anything close to "personal". And I DID try! So, I recently came to the conclusion that I was NOT one who god loved or desired to be with. Silence makes a huge point.

I dont think I have ever used langauge like "personal relationship with Jesus." This terminology has always seemed like shallow subjective mysticism and is foreign to my understanding. On the other hand, I would not go so far as to deny a relationship with my creator, but I believe I have been talking about a Sovereign Lord who loves his creation. This personal relationship stuff makes it sound like we are cosmic buddies, or something like that. It is a vague shallow description that can have different subjective things to different people. This again makes me think that you left a Christianity that I never thought to be Christianity.

You end this paragraph with the statement implying that God is silent. I guess I look at things far differently. God has been anything but silent. He has filled the universe with his speech (nature), but has especially spoken in the scriptures. Were you expecting that mystical inner revelation? What did you mean by your subjective phrase?

 

[glorydaz]

I dont think I have ever used langauge like "personal relationship with Jesus." This terminology has always seemed like shallow subjective mysticism and is foreign to my understanding. On the other hand, I would not go so far as to deny a relationship with my creator, but I believe I have been talking about a Sovereign Lord who loves his creation. This personal relationship stuff makes it sound like we are cosmic buddies, or something like that. It is a vague shallow description that can have different subjective things to different people. This again makes me think that you left a Christianity that I never thought to be Christianity.

If you had Christ in you, you'd know what a personal relationship is all about.
One can't be one of the elect if he doesn't have the Holy Spirit of Christ dwelling in him.
No Holy Spirit...no elect.

 

[mondar]

I dont think I have ever used langauge like "personal relationship with Jesus." This terminology has always seemed like shallow subjective mysticism and is foreign to my understanding. On the other hand, I would not go so far as to deny a relationship with my creator, but I believe I have been talking about a Sovereign Lord who loves his creation. This personal relationship stuff makes it sound like we are cosmic buddies, or something like that. It is a vague shallow description that can have different subjective things to different people. This again makes me think that you left a Christianity that I never thought to be Christianity.

If you had Christ in you, you'd know what a personal relationship is all about.
One can't be one of the elect if he doesn't have the Holy Spirit of Christ dwelling in him.
No Holy Spirit...no elect.

There ya go Orion! I hope you do not miss what just happened. Glorydaz unwittingly just demonstrated my point. Your faith was never like mine. Was it not more like what Glorydaz believes?

 

[shad]

savedbygrace, if you won't answer my other questions, how about this one: "Are you good with the idea that god makes people that have no other choice but to end up in a tormenting hell, just so a FEW elect will see how lucky they were? Do you see that as ethical? Why or why not?

God is merciful and Just, He will make sure everyone gets absolutely equal chance either in this life or after they are dead physically.

Thats your philosophy, not scriptural.. You made a statement that you cannot prove by scripture which was this:

Yes, it is very Scriptural. You should read the Bible with the whole context to harmonize with the rest.

Luke 6:36
Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Romans 2:11 God does not show favoritism.

 

[glorydaz]

I dont think I have ever used langauge like "personal relationship with Jesus." This terminology has always seemed like shallow subjective mysticism and is foreign to my understanding. On the other hand, I would not go so far as to deny a relationship with my creator, but I believe I have been talking about a Sovereign Lord who loves his creation. This personal relationship stuff makes it sound like we are cosmic buddies, or something like that. It is a vague shallow description that can have different subjective things to different people. This again makes me think that you left a Christianity that I never thought to be Christianity.

If you had Christ in you, you'd know what a personal relationship is all about.
One can't be one of the elect if he doesn't have the Holy Spirit of Christ dwelling in him.
No Holy Spirit...no elect.

There ya go Orion! I hope you do not miss what just happened. Glorydaz unwittingly just demonstrated my point. Your faith was never like mine. Was it not more like what Glorydaz believes?

If it was more like mine, then that would explain why the Lord is working overtime on his heart to draw him back into the fold. Could be you're unwittingly being used to show Orion God is much greater and more loving than you claim.

 

[savedbygrace57]

shad says:

Yes, it is very Scriptural

In your mind..

 

[shad]

shad says:

Yes, it is very Scriptural

In your mind..

I just showed you the Scriptures to prove it and you still fight about it. Amazing. get rid of your pride, friend.

.

 

[savedbygrace57]

shad says:

Yes, it is very Scriptural

In your mind..

I just showed you the Scriptures to prove it and you still fight about it. Amazing. get rid of your pride, friend.

.

As I said in your mind..For I have showed you plenty of scripture, Just read the thread..

 

[Orion]

Once again, . . . dichotomy. One about what is "relationship", . . . another about "who can be saved".

Show of hands here. . . . . . . which of you [in these last few posts] IS "hearing from the holy spirit"? Who of you here is having "the holy spirit bring you into all truth"?

I will post my own personal thoughts.

1. If any connection with god is via nature, then there is a huge problem in that nature seems absent from any specific god. And if it DID, . . . nature doesn't agree with various biblical records. Regardless, . . . nature shows herself to be more like what geologists/paleontologist have postulated, experimented to test, and shown to be testable. The universe screams at us "billions of years". The earth denys "biblical Noah flood concepts" and other biblical arguments.

The book, called the bible, doesn't translate to me as "a god who wrote it", but as nothing more than the ideas of men, with their good points, bad points, understandings, and MISunderstandings.

My point is, . . . . if I ONLY have these things to go on, . . . then there is nothing real for me. Nothing personal. . . nothing vaguely "for me" that shows that I'm cared about. Words from LONG ago. I require more.

2. If there is a god, regardless of "how much power it has", it would not give it a right to do that which would be unethical, even for it's own "glory". I've mentioned several of those specific things in this thread, so I won't rehash them.

 

[shad]

Once again, . . . dichotomy. One about what is "relationship", . . . another about "who can be saved".

Show of hands here. . . . . . . which of you [in these last few posts] IS "hearing from the holy spirit"? Who of you here is having "the holy spirit bring you into all truth"?

Again, most of us are deceiving ourselves and others. We will be judged severely if we are spreading falsehoods.

After all, Jesus warns us that "narrow is the road that leads to life and only a few find it".
.

 

[shad]

As I said in your mind..For I have showed you plenty of scripture, Just read the thread..

Continually nit picking, get rid of your pride.

take care.

.

 

[Orion]

Again, most of us are deceiving ourselves and others. We will be judged severely if we are spreading falsehoods.

After all, Jesus warns us that "narrow is the road that leads to life and only a few find it".
.

That's kinda my point. Everyone thinks they are right and the other person is deceiving self and others. I wonder why there would BE such a "narrow road" IF god wanted to save everyone. That makes absolutely no sense, no matter what you do to sugar coat it.

I appreciate people caring about my "spiritual future", . . . . but at this point, this sight has either confused what I should "believe" or else confirmed my current stance.

Blessings.