If God Loved everyone !

[Veritas]

The problem with a universalist reading of the term "world" as meaning "every single person that ever lived" would be in verse 18.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The ones who do not have faith are judged. Verse 17 clearly says that God did not send his son into the world to "judge the world." Then in verse 18 he says that the unbeliever is judged. It seems logical to understand that in this context the "world" does not include unbelievers.

In fact the term "world" (? ??????) has a variety of meanings in different contexts. To read it to mean "every single person that ever lived" in this context leads only to universalism.

Like you, I don't believe universalism. I hope for it, but I know not all will be saved.

But I still read world as just that, world. And all as all.

When I read verse 17, I focus on "his son". God judges, and will judge; however, sending his son into the world had nothing to do with judging. Only saving.

Now, God see's believers through Christ... hence, believers are not judged.

 

[Veritas]

All those verses refer to all the church, the elect of God..

Those verses do not say "elect", they say "all". The bible says "for God so loved the world", not "for God so loved the elect"

The verses dont say "all" does not mean "all of the elect", because it does..For God so loved the church world..not everyone in the world..

The verses also don't say that "all" doesn't mean "all with black hair". ....

ps 5:

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Yup, and I've worked iniquity; and unfortunately probably still will. Without Christ I am one of those He hates.

 

[savedbygrace57]

ver says:

The verses also don't say that "all" doesn't mean "all with black hair". ....

Neither does it say it..

Yup, and I've worked iniquity; and unfortunately probably still will. Without Christ I am one of those He hates.

Well, I have news for you, God does not hate His people when they work iniquity, He loved them while being so..rom 5:

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[glorydaz]

ver says:

The verses also don't say that "all" doesn't mean "all with black hair". ....

Neither does it say it..



[quote:1e0qm59n]Yup, and I've worked iniquity; and unfortunately probably still will. Without Christ I am one of those He hates.

Well, I have news for you, God does not hate His people when they work iniquity, He loved them while being so..rom 5:

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.[/quote:1e0qm59n]

God loves the sinner and hates the sin.
Put the emphasis on iniquity and you'll get this one right. :gah

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory says:

God loves the sinner and hates the sin.

He does not love all sinners ps 5:5

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest [b]all workers [/b]of iniquity.

 

[glorydaz]

glory says:

God loves the sinner and hates the sin.

He does not love all sinners ps 5:5

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest [b]all workers [/b]of iniquity.

Yet, while still in our sins, He saved us.

Here Jesus looks at an unrepentant sinner, and loves him still.

Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

It's the sin he hates.

 

[glorydaz]

God loved us while we were still sinners...but after that the love of God toward man appeared.

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

God hates the workers of iniquity the same way He hates a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that deviseth wicked..., feet that run to mischief. Does that means He hates a literal tongue and feet? No, it's the sin God hates.

These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory says:

God loves the sinner and hates the sin.

He does not love all sinners ps 5:5

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest [b]all workers [/b]of iniquity.

Yet, while still in our sins, He saved us.

Here Jesus looks at an unrepentant sinner, and loves him still.

Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

It's the sin he hates.

God hates the workers of iniquity..ps 5:

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

 

[savedbygrace57]

So to really ascertain the objects of Gods Love, other scriptures must be consulted which mentions Gods Love..

Apart from Jn 3 16, when it comes to objects of Gods Love, its believers in Jesus Christ, in the epistles to whom Paul or one of the other apostles who wrote..

Even Jn 3 16, if understood correctly, refers to the world of believers..

There is also a ungodly world, or a world of unbelievers such as described in 2 pet 2:

5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Obviously this world of men were separate from the ones that found grace in Gods sight..

And Just as in the days Noah, so it is now presently, there is a world of the ungodly who is about to perish in their sins.

This is the world that believers are not apart of, because this world is condemned 1 cor 11:

32But when we [the called or chosen] are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we[the called] should not be condemned with the world.


That condemned world, is different from the world of the Sons of God, because out of Love, God chastens us..

heb 12:

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Then there is world that God does not Love, and has purposed to condemned..

 

[glorydaz]

Does God hate the tongue that tells lies...or does He hate the lies?
Does God hate the feet that run to sin...or does He hate the sin?

 

[RND]

Its an obvious fact that if Christ died for all men, and some go to hell anyway, then his death was insufficient to save them.

You have a rather warped sense of what responsibility is. If a boat ventures upon a drowning man and throws him a life preserver, but the drowning man refuses to grasp it, who's fault is it if he drowns?

Christ blood is sufficient for anyone wishing to do as the COI were required to do in the wilderness when bitten by snakes. Your suggestion of Calvanism that there are only elect means that Christ didn't die for those that would choose to look and see.

Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Jhn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

Since John 6:44 says "No man comes to me," I can point to your idea of men wanting Christ as unbiblical.

It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance. When they see the goodness of God represented in the selfless life of Christ our Savior they will be drawn to Him. This is why the "Good News" is preached. The notion that salvation is not a choice and that God saves only who He will is completely unbibilical mondar.

The COI in order to be healed had to make the effort to "look" on the brazen serpent and have "faith" that they would be healed. Nothing has changed. We must look to Christ and have faith that He will heal.

[quote:1rxho2iv] 2Cr 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Paul here is talking about the "thorn in the flesh" in this context, not his salvation. [/quote:1rxho2iv] Paul was indeed speaking of his salvation for he knew that his salvation rested totally on the work of Christ.

Your the one that said Christ shed blood is merely "available." Of course in your weakened view of the crosswork of Christ, and your inflated view of the self-righteousness of man to seek God, it does make the crosswork of Christ only a possible salvation that we activate by our faith.

Christ's blood is indeed available to any man, woman or child that will choose to recognize He died for them and because of them.

Everytime you say that Christ's blood is merely available, it shows your weakened view of the crosswork of Christ.

By recognizing the fact that Christ died for the sinner you view that as a weakened view of Christ? Are you serious in this belief? Is there any other way to recognize the work of Jesus on the cross other than believing He shed His blood to save mankind?

in one breath you will say it is merely "available" then you say that it is "sufficient" for salvation.

Exactly. Do you have another view that I should be aware of? Is the healing and atoning sacrifice of Jesus NOT available to any that would recognize He died for them? Is His blood not sufficient for salvation?

You do not recognize the inconsistency in your own statements.

I would say you don't recognize just how consistent with scripture my statements are.

If we have to do something to activate the cross work of Christ, then that crosswork is not totally sufficient for salvation.

We have to do nothing but accept it. He knocks at the door of out heart. We have to open the door. We have to "look" and have "faith."

We must add to it our own righteous decision of accepting Christ.

Wee have no righteousness.

Of course I would object that any such suggestion of human merit is incorrect.

At this point I have no idea what you would be objecting to.

What are you suggesting here... [/quote] That the same thing you accused me of doing in my argument is the same thing you did here.

Is there any chance you would be consistent through this context? Would you also say verse 10 "There is none righteous, no not one" is speaking of only the Hebrews and not Paul and his converts?

Read verse 9. Paul is comparing the Christian believer and convert to the Hebrews - that none were righteous, none were justified. My point to you had nothing to do with Paul's meaning as much as it does your argumentation methods!

Then in verse 23 when it says "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" you would see this as only referring to Hebrews or Jews and not Paul and his converts?

Obviously this is referring to all sinners. Of course since we are all sinners we are in desperate need of recognizing the fact that Jesus dies to make us righteous before God because without Him none could possibly be righteous.

 

[mutzrein]

The idea of a boat venturing upon a drowning man, who is thrown a life preserver, can never represent what Christ achieved for man.

Jesus came that man might have life. He doesn't give life to those are are nearly dead or dying. He gives life to those who have no life at all.

 

[Orion]

Well, Vic, . . . that would be a great characteristic to "fix broken vessels", so to speak. I just am not one who believes that any good deed can be done for the sole purpose of "glorifying one's self". Doing good should be done, even if no return on it is ever made. Having said that, it would be a common curtesy to say, "thank you!"

Thanks for your input.

Orion,

The Bible says that all good things come from God. So we should be thankful to God in all good things.

.

And all bad things, so it would seem.

Having said that, . . . isn't that a rather generalized statement you made here? "all good things come from god"? This is just opinion. Some other religious person may say that good comes from their god, or from within one's own ability.

 

[Orion]

Anyway, . . . anyone else find it of great interest when christians disagree about what should be a paramount issue? Isn't the holy spirit supposed to be making it all clear to those who believe? Yet, I view a few pages of arguments about whether or not "god loves everyone or not". I just have to shake my head and say, . . . "wow".

 

[shad]

Anyway, . . . anyone else find it of great interest when christians disagree about what should be a paramount issue? Isn't the holy spirit supposed to be making it all clear to those who believe? Yet, I view a few pages of arguments about whether or not "god loves everyone or not". I just have to shake my head and say, . . . "wow".

Yes Orion, the Holy Spirit will reveal to us what we need to know if we are true servants of Jesus.
So we have nothing to worry about if we are serving God with all our heart and might.
.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The world of the elect !

As stated already, there is a ungodly condemned world per 1 cor 11 32, 1 jn 5:

19And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Then there is a world that God through Jesus Christ will save, and has saved..

Jn 6:

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Notice what Jesus says, there is a world in which He gives life [spiritual] to..

This is not as many false preachers preach, even on this board, this is not an offer of life, a chance at life, but a giving of life..

An offer is something that one may refuse, as in refusing a offer for help or aid, but to give something implies the successful reception of that given, for it has been communicated effectually..

if something is merely offered and refused, then its not given..but Jesus Christ was actually, as the bread of life, giving life to the world, but what world ?


It was the world of His sheep which He gave life to..Jn 10:

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they [sheep] might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..

The sheep who here Jesus gives eternal life..are the same world of Jn 6:33, whom He gives life to..

The same world, Jesus came to save Jn 3:

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

[Orion]

Anyway, . . . anyone else find it of great interest when christians disagree about what should be a paramount issue? Isn't the holy spirit supposed to be making it all clear to those who believe? Yet, I view a few pages of arguments about whether or not "god loves everyone or not". I just have to shake my head and say, . . . "wow".

Yes Orion, the Holy Spirit will reveal to us what we need to know if we are true servants of Jesus.
So we have nothing to worry about if we are serving God with all our heart and might.
.

So, in other words, . . . your side is correct and the other side is "woe-fully missing the boat". However, they feel the same about your side. They firmly believe that THEY are right as well. Do you not see the problem? There is only opinion. IF your holy spirit was actually active in "relaying truth", there wouldn't be an argument about "whether god loves everyone or not".

 

[seekandlisten]

The idea of a boat venturing upon a drowning man, who is thrown a life preserver, can never represent what Christ achieved for man.

Jesus came that man might have life. He doesn't give life to those are are nearly dead or dying. He gives life to those who have no life at all.

Interesting post. Thank you.

 

[RND]

The idea of a boat venturing upon a drowning man, who is thrown a life preserver, can never represent what Christ achieved for man.

Really? Why not? Did not Jesus throw mankind a "life preserver" by shedding His own precious blood?

Jesus came that man might have life.

That's the whole idea behind throwing a drowning man a life preserver right- so he could live?

He doesn't give life to those are are nearly dead or dying.

We're all dying! To those that are dead and rejected the "life preserver" that is the blood of Christ this is certainly true. But to the dying? What about the thief on the cross? Jesus is prepared to grant salvation to all who accept Him and His atoning sacrifice even if they are upon their death beds. Read Matthew 20:1-16.

He gives life to those who have no life at all.

This is certainly true - He changes men from the inside out. He gives them a new life.

 

[Orion]

What is "human [finite] blood" to a god?

Anyway, the "life preserver" analogy doesn't work for one specific reason. If you throw out a life preserver to someone, they can see it, . . . swim to it, . . . cling on to it, and be pulled back to the boat. Religion throws out. . . . words. . . often contradictory, . . many times debated within various christian denominations, with nothing concrete to actually grab onto. Just the opinion of various people telling you what to see. And at the same time, many other religions have casted out their words.

And as with the latest threads in this thread, . . . . the analogy really should be stated as follows:

The person holding the life preserver may or may not throw it to the person. . . . . he, first, has to actually LIKE the person enough to do so. . . . . . . . . .No, he would throw it to anyone. . . . Not the case. Only if the person loved him first. . . . Uh uh! It doesn't matter because anyone would be given the chance to grab on. . . . . . . You're wrong, the life preserver is only for those whom the thrower deems worth saving. . . . . . How can you say that? . . . etc....