If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[Jethro Bodine]

Notice the context of all that you wrote, as given in vs 46.

Its found in the word "Righteous".
Notice...
"THESE", vs, "the righteous".

This would be the lost vs the saved.
The Christ rejectors vs the Born Again.

So, anytime you see the word "righteous" you always have to realized that with regards to "judgment" in eternity, this can only apply to a Christ Rejector, and this is because all eternal judgment for a Believer has been dealt with on the Cross.
See, God has already "judged" a Christian by laying the sins of a Christian on his Son on the cross who has died for them.
God is not going to "double judge"....... He is not going to judge Christ for our sins on a Cross, then judge us for them in eternity.
Thats not going to happen, so, keep this in mind when you are in the Book of Matthew or Hebrews and this way you wont become confused about the Blood Atonement.

Okay, without going into detail about all this, you at least acknowledge that both the righteous and unrighteous will be present at the Great Judgment. That's a step in the right direction.

 

[Kidron]

Okay, without going into detail about all this, you at least acknowledge that both the righteous and unrighteous will be present at the Great Judgment. That's a step in the right direction.

Rev 20:11 isnt for Christians.
2nd Corin 5:10 isn't for Christ rejectors.

Look at 20:13......"Hell-Hades"......notice this?.......these people are coming from THERE.
And no Christian dies and goes there, so all those "dead" have to be unbelievers-Christ rejectors.

 

[JLB]

Once this occurs, you can't be out of the family tree, you can only be a family member who is ither a good family member or a bad family member,

You mean like Lucifer?

God is the Father of all spirits.

Angels are called the sons of God.

Once we, as adopted ones through faith in Jesus Christ, attain to the resurrection, then we will have become sons of God like the angels.

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36

Those who are worthy to attain the resurrection will have become equal to the angels, and are sons of God.

Angels who are sons of God, were cast down to hell for there disobedience during the days of Noah.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4

Lucifer and the one third of the angels in heaven who were cast out with him, are sons of God.

There fate is also the everlasting fires of hell.

Being a son of God does not exempt a person from being cast into hell.

JLB

 

[Kidron]

Once we, as adopted ones through faith in Jesus Christ, attain to the resurrection, then we will have become sons of God like the angels.

JLB

Once we, as adopted ones through faith in Jesus Christ, attain to the resurrection, then we will have become sons of God like the angels.

Your theology reads like bad science fiction, JLB.
So...
God is not the "father" of Lucifer, and Jesus is not Lucifer's brother, nor is He the brother of "Angels".
Angels are not born again.
God is not the "Father" of angels.
Jesus didnt pay for the sins of fallen angels.

 

[JLB]

The law of Moses says a male has to be circumcised or he will be cut off. Abraham was circumcised 430 years before the law was given. Gen. 17:10-14 So did Abraham keep God's law or did he keep the law of Moses?

The commandment to become circumcised, like the commandment to get out of your fathers house, were the Lord's commands to Abraham.

Just like do not eat of the tree was His law to Adam.

Circumcision was the sign for Abraham and his descendants of the covenant the Lord made with him.

This command to Moses was a continuation of the covenant sign.

Paul teaches by the Spirit that physical circumcision is not the goal but faith from a motive of love, as Abraham was considered as righteous before he was circumcised.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Once we, as adopted ones through faith in Jesus Christ, attain to the resurrection, then we will have become sons of God like the angels.

Your theology reads like bad science fiction, JLB.
So...
God is not the "father" of Lucifer, and Jesus is not Lucifer's brother, nor is He the brother of "Angels".
Angels are not born again.
God is not the "Father" of angels.
Jesus didnt pay for the sins of fallen angels.

Who created the spirit being, Lucifer and the one third of his angels that were cast out with him?

My bible says God is the Father of spirits.

9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?
Hebrews 12:9

Who is the creator of the angels that were cast down to hell?


You err, not knowing the scriptures.


JLB

 

[JLB]

God is not the "Father" of angels.
Jesus didnt pay for the sins of fallen angels.

Angels are sons of God, as Adam is a son of God, being created by God Himself.

If angels are sons of God, then that makes God there Father. 2

Adam was created as God's son and was not born again.

JLB

 

[JLB]

There is no part that I don't understand.

Jesus' whole point in Jn 15 is about production, not getting or staying saved. He had already told them that they were "clean" back in ch 13 with the exception of one of them (Judas). So this cannot refer to salvation.

To bear much fruit is about production. And Jesus used a farming or agricultural metaphor to make His point about fruit production.

It's about having access to the eternal life in Christ or not.

Those who remain connected to Him in relationship, are connect to the only source of eternal life there is.

Those not connected to Him, are not connected to the only source of eternal life there is.


5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:5-6

Sorry but the language is clear.

The people were in Him, then the were removed from Him, and throw into the fire.

...gather them and throw them into the fire, is unmistakable language that can not be "explained away" by you or anyone else.


Connected to Jesus = Eternal Life

Disconnected from Jesus = Thrown into the fire


That's why we are encouraged to continue in the faith...for we are reconciled to Him, as long as we continue in faith.

and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:20-23

...if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel.


JLB

 

[Kidron]

Angels are sons of God, as Adam is a son of God, being created by God Himself.

If angels are sons of God, then that makes God there Father. 2

Adam was created as God's son and was not born again.

JLB

Ok, lets think about a few things.
First of all, you posted an (Angel) scripture from Luke, that says that 1.) Christians dont die, and 2.) are not given to marriage in heaven.
And, in those 2 cases, according to that scripture, our "like angels" affiliation , ends.
So, dont add to that scripture your personal theology and dont use this type scripture to try to prove your theories about salvation regarding Christians.

Consider that Jesus is referred to as the 2nd Adam.
This designates him as human, having the "family tree" of a human.
No "Angel has this linage.
No Angel has a earthly mother.
Consider that No angle is born from a woman, and no Angel, unlike Adam, was created on the earth from dirt.
Angels are spirits, and Humans are living FLESH bodies who are also eternal spirits.
Jesus had a human body, later has a resurrection body, and no angel has this type body.
You bible also says that Adam was created in the "Image of God", and no Angel, according to your bible, was created
in the Image of God.
Do you see it yet?

But here is the distinction that is the main division.
No Angel is a "Child of God", and all Christians are designated by being born again = God's Children.

JLB, did you ever read these scriptures?

Hebrews 1: 5-8:
5 For to which of the angels did the Father ever say,

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten (fathered) You [established You as a Son, with kingly dignity]”?

And again [did He ever say to the angels],

“I shall be a Father to Him
And He shall be a Son to Me”?

> NOPE< !!

6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,

“And all the angels of God are to worship Him.”

7 And concerning the angels He says,

“Who makes His angels winds,
And His >ministering servants< flames of fire [to do His bidding].”

8 But about the Son ,.....

So, these scriptures show you the difference between "only begotten" Son Jesus, and "sons of god" who are angels.
There is no equal value, and Jesus is the NOT the brother of angels or the brother of Satan.
And because a Christian is "in Christ", "bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh", "seated in heavenly places" next to GOD, then we have to understand that angles are not related to God as "sons" in the same way that Jesus or "Children of God" (Believers) are designated as "Sons".

Now all of these points, are not just semantics, but instead show us that there is a huge distinction between angels and Human's who are born in the flesh and born again as Children of God their Father.
No Angel has human flesh, because Angels are not born.
Jesus was born in the flesh, as are we.

So, if you want to continue to compare as equal, Angels to Humans, you are making a biblical error.
And if you want to post "angel" scriptures as a means to create the idea that a Child of God can end up in hell, then you are making an even bigger theological error.
And this is why you cant take scriptures that speak about Angelic beings as "sons" and try to overlay those as Doctrines regarding born again Children of God as "Sons".

 

[JLB]

Ok, lets think about a few things.
First of all, you posted an (Angel) scripture from Luke, that says that 1.) Christians dont die, and 2.) are not given to marriage.
And, in those 2 cases, according to that scripture, our "like angels" affiliation , ends.
So, dont add to that scripture your personal theology and dont use this type scripture to try to prove your theories about salvation regarding Christians.

Are angels sons of God?


JLB

 

[JLB]

So, these scriptures show you the difference between the Son Jesus, and "sons of god" who are angels.
There is no equal value, and Jesus is the NOT the brother of angels.
And because a Christian is "in Christ", "bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh", "seated in heavenly places" next to GOD, then we have to understand that angles are not related to God as "sons" in the same way that Jesus or "Children of God" (Believers) are designated as "Sons".

Is Jesus the Son of God?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Look at 20:13......"Hell-Hades"......notice this?.......these people are coming from THERE.

Not everybody at the Great Judgment are coming from Hades:

"13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds." (Revelation 20:13 NASB italics in original).

We don't know what 'the sea' is, but it's obviously not death or Hades. But we don't need to know. Matthew 25:31-46 is sufficient to describe the Great Judgment and what happens to the righteous and the unrighteous at that Judgment. And contrary to popular Protestant teaching, the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works has an obligatory and expected outcome that Christ will use to determine who has faith in Christ and who does not, and thus, who will be saved and who will not.

 

[Kidron]

We don't know what 'the sea' is,

If you study this word in the biblical context, you'll find that its usually understood as a designation of a huge amount.

" a sea of people"., ect.

 

[WIP]

Remember, there are specific guidelines for this forum. If you are posting a counter-argument it is expected that you are not just posting your opinion and therefore we respectfully require that you present the Scripture reference that defines your opinion. I may begin removing non-compliant posts.

 

[JLB]

So, if you want to continue to compare as equal, Angels to Humans, you are making a biblical error.

34 And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage.
35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:34-36

... for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Angels are sons of God.

Those who are worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection, will have become sons of God, because they will posses an immortal body that will never die, just like the angels.

A body that can eat, and is compatible with both heaven and earth.


JLB

 

[Kidron]

Angels are sons of God.
Those who are worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection, will have become sons of God, because they will posses an immortal body that will never die, just like the angels.
A body that can eat, and is compatible with both heaven and earth.


JLB

Ok, lets think about a few things.
First of all, you posted an (Angel) scripture from Luke, that says that 1.) Christians dont die, and 2.) are not given to marriage in heaven.
And, in those 2 cases, according to that scripture, our "like angels" affiliation , ends.
So, dont add to that scripture your personal theology and dont use this type scripture to try to prove your theories about salvation regarding Christians.

Consider that Jesus is referred to as the 2nd Adam.
This designates him as human, having the "family tree" of a human.
No "Angel has this linage.
No Angel has a earthly mother.
Consider that No angle is born from a woman, and no Angel, unlike Adam, was created on the earth from dirt.
Angels are spirits, and Humans are living FLESH bodies who are also eternal spirits.
Jesus had a human body, later has a resurrection body, and no angel has this type body.
You bible also says that Adam was created in the "Image of God", and no Angel, according to your bible, was created
in the Image of God.
Do you see it yet?

But here is the distinction that is the main division.
No Angel is a "Child of God", and all Christians are designated by being born again = God's Children.

JLB, did you ever read these scriptures?

Hebrews 1: 5-8:
5 For to which of the angels did the Father ever say,

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten (fathered) You [established You as a Son, with kingly dignity]”?

And again [did He ever say to the angels],

“I shall be a Father to Him
And He shall be a Son to Me”?

> NOPE< !!

6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,

“And all the angels of God are to worship Him.”

7 And concerning the angels He says,

“Who makes His angels winds,
And His >ministering servants< flames of fire [to do His bidding].”

8 But about the Son ,.....

So, these scriptures show you the difference between "only begotten" Son Jesus, and "sons of god" who are angels.
There is no equal value, and Jesus is the NOT the brother of angels or the brother of Satan.
And because a Christian is "in Christ", "bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh", "seated in heavenly places" next to GOD, then we have to understand that angles are not related to God as "sons" in the same way that Jesus or "Children of God" (Believers) are designated as "Sons".

Now all of these points, are not just semantics, but instead show us that there is a huge distinction between angels and Human's who are born in the flesh and born again as Children of God their Father.
No Angel has human flesh, because Angels are not born.
Jesus was born in the flesh, as are we.

So, if you want to continue to compare as equal, Angels to Humans, you are making a biblical error.
And if you want to post "angel" scriptures as a means to create the idea that a Child of God can end up in hell, then you are making an even bigger theological error.
And this is why you cant take scriptures that speak about Angelic beings as "sons" and try to overlay those as Doctrines regarding born again Children of God as "Sons".

 

[JLB]

Hebrews 1: 5-8:
5 For to which of the angels did the Father ever say,

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten (fathered) You [established You as a Son, with kingly dignity]”?

And again [did He ever say to the angels],

“I shall be a Father to Him
And He shall be a Son to Me”?

Angels are God's sons, but Jesus is the only Begotten Son of God.

Angels, like Adam were created.

Jesus was Begotten.

For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
Hebrews 1:5


Was Adam a begotten or created son of God?


JLB


PS - Thank you for your use of scripture, and referring to scripture.

 

[Kidron]

Angels are God's sons, but Jesus is the only Begotten Son of God.

Was Adam a begotten or created son of God?

JLB

Adam has no belly button, yet he is created from earth dirt, which God formed as flesh.
Angels are "spirits", not formed as "flesh" from the earth.
Jesus is referred to as the "second Adam", so, this means the first Adam's body was just like Christ's 2nd Adam's body.
If you cut Adam he bled.....If you scourged Jesus He bled.
Your bible does not say that Jesus was the second angel, or the second Lucifer, or the second Gabriel.
But it does say that humans who are born again have become, "flesh of Jesus's flesh and bone of his Bones"..... Ephesians 5:30
And your bible says that Believers, God, and Jesus, are "One". ..... John 17:21
It does NOT say this about angels and God and Jesus and Humans all being "ONE".
You bible never says an angel is "in Christ" or "begotten of the Father", yet HUMANS are born again by the Spirit of God and are "in Christ".

So, as i was saying.
Im not disagreeing that angles are spoken of as "sons of God, but this is certainly not the same status as Jesus or Christians.
Have you ever read where God answers the prayer of an Angel?
Does your bible say that Angels are created in the Image of God?

So, there is a great distinction regarding the eternal status of a Child of God as compared to an Angel.
Angles are not equal in "value" to God's Children (Christians)

Finally, as one more point of distinction.

"Angels sinned, & Lucifer was found with "iniquity".
right?
And Humans are sinners, not fallen angels who sinned., yet BOTH have "sinned".
So, why is it that God offeres Jesus's atoning blood for the sins of A HUMAN,... but not for Lucifer or the Angels that sinned?
Its absolutely because angelic spiritual beings are not esteemed in the same way that God esteems Humans.
And because this is true, this explains why we have to view "sons of God" verses speaking about Angelic beings, as completely different then verses speaking DOCTRINALLY and otherwise regarding >born again Sons of God< who are created in the Image of God, and we have to be extra careful to rightly divide the word and not overlap and twist these Angel scriptures to wrongly conclude that Christians can be unborn again.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you study this word in the biblical context, you'll find that its usually understood as a designation of a huge amount.

" a sea of people"., ect.

I agree.
And 'death' in Revelation 20:13 can simply mean those who have died in their physical bodies. For even the righteous martyrs a few verses before this died the first death of the physical body (vs.4 "they came (back) to life (from the dead)"). So, people coming from 'death' to the Great Judgment doesn't have to exclude the righteous dead, IMO. Hades, on the other hand, most probably does mean the abode of the deceased wicked. No argument from me on that.

 

[Kidron]

I agree.
And 'death' in Revelation 20:13 can simply mean those who have died in their physical bodies. For even the righteous martyrs a few verses before this have died the first death of the physical body (vs.4 "they came (back) to life (from the dead)"). So, people coming from 'death' to the Great Judgment can mean the righteous dead, IMO. Hades, on the other hand, most probably does mean the abode of the deceased wicked. No argument from me on that.

Sure.

The only thing tho....is that this Great White Throne Judgement, is only noted for its end game.
"The lake of fire".
And Christians dont go there....so, this could not be a "judgement for Christians".

Now, someone says......then its a judgment for the lost and for Christians who use to be born again but became unborn again because they forgot to have faith one day (and they died that one day), or they were not water baptized, or they didnt do ENOUGH good works in their 95th year, that "showed they had faith".
And i would say..
Not quite.