Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?
- Thread starter llama
- Start date
Ok, so we agree are on the first point.
The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:41-42
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 13:49-50
The wailing and gnashing of teeth is the result of being cast into the fire.
44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,'
49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,
50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,
51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:44-51
Here we see Jesus teaching His disciples privately, about the time of His Coming, and those of His servants that will be trusted with authority and provision for His people.
Those who have broken covenant, will be sent to the same place as the hypocrites, where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Again, Jesus continues to teach His disciples privately -
Matthew 25 -
13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the houri n which the Son of Man is coming.
14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey.
16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them... “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest.28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Here is yet another lesson referring to the Lord's people who will be cast into the same place and the unrighteous and the hypocrites.
Continued...
JLB
LovethroughDove
Member
Hi FreeGrace. I know this is really between you and JLB, but there is a slight disconnect going on between the two of you. You are right and he is right also. You are right in that there are people who will fight the good fight of faith and not take for granted the Holy Spirit that was given to them. This is what do not grieve the Holy Spirit means. (They are sealed permanently) Some people will be sad they have the Holy Spirit. (they won't be sealed)
JLB is right, because there are people who will not remain in Christ. For whatever reason, it is not for them. God does not break his promise, but we do.
scripture pertaining to this: 1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
2 Timothy 4:7-8 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day - and not only me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
Hebrews 10:29 How much more severely to you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
So, you are both right. People will be sealed permanently and some won't.
The context continues, as Jesus teaches His disciples what to teach the disciples that will me made through their own ministry after Jesus goes back to heaven.
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46
These of His servants on His left hand, called Jesus Lord, and were surprised at His at His question.
‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’
When did we not minister to You?
They acknowledged Jesus as Lord and understood ministry, being His servants.
These did not inherit the kingdom of God, and were cast into the fire, with the devil and his angels.
Likewise those who we in Him, yet later were cast out as a branch, were also gathered up and cast into the fire.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
Can you agree that His people, as represented by the branches connected to Him, were at one time joined to Him, before they were removed and thrown into the fire?
JLB
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46
These of His servants on His left hand, called Jesus Lord, and were surprised at His at His question.
‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’
When did we not minister to You?
They acknowledged Jesus as Lord and understood ministry, being His servants.
These did not inherit the kingdom of God, and were cast into the fire, with the devil and his angels.
Likewise those who we in Him, yet later were cast out as a branch, were also gathered up and cast into the fire.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
Can you agree that His people, as represented by the branches connected to Him, were at one time joined to Him, before they were removed and thrown into the fire?
JLB
6 Now godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing intothis world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
Paul admonishes us to lay hold of eternal life... for some have strayed from the faith.
JLB
Tell me what part of this teaching, that you don't understand.
I have highlighted the key phrases and color coded the key words, whereby Jesus teaches us about His people, who are in Him...
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:5-6
JLB
Kidron
Member
-
There are a lot of reasons why the scriptures you are posting, are not aimed at a Christian.
For one thing, the Holy Spirit in us is "SEALED unto the day of redemption."
So, for a believer to go to hell would include the Holy Spirit in them going to hell with them, as the Holy Spirit is "sealed" in them.
Its this very Holy Spirit who is the JESUS in us, who IS THE ETERNAL LIFE, stated in 1 John 5:11-13 that tells us that if we have Jesus then we have eternal life.
Done deal.
So, as this scripture tells you that you have eternal life RIGHT NOW with God as a believer, then this is another reason you are not going to end up anywhere else.
See, the issue with what you are writing, is that all of your examples of "losing salvation", have concluded that not being a good person is able to undo the Blood Atonement.
And that is simply impossible.
It is impossible for a person to be "unborn again".
And the reason you keep trying to find the next improvable proof that a person can lose their salvation is because you think and believe that salvation can be won or lost based on behavior, when in fact, It cant.
The reason we are saved is because of what Christ did, and we cant undo it, as we didnt do it ourselves.
Its a gift that is not earned or lost by behavior, its only given as a FREE Gift, that is based on BELIEVING the GOSPEL and Jesus dying for our SINS.
"to him that >worketh not< (deeds), but BELIEVETH on HIM (GOD) that justifieth, YOUR FAITH IS COUNTED as Rightousness"... and Not your works.
never your works.
So, as doing works or living holy cant save you, then neither will you be lost if you dont live holy or do good works.
Salvation is not based on works, its created by a Blood Atonement and given to us as a covering, a pardon, and a eternal fact.
So, once you understand that all your scriptures you keep posting are all concerning what someone is doing or not doing, then eventually i believe you are going to realize what you are doing wrong and stop.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Ephesians 1:13-14
God's seal of approval upon us who have believed, is the Holy Spirit.
If we abide in Jesus, we have the eternal life that is in Him, just as a branch that is connected to the vine, has access to the source of life within the Vine.
This is eternal life, that you know God, and Jesus Christ whom He sent. John 17:3
Eternal life is relationship with God, through Jesus Christ... as long as we are in Him.
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6
Notice that the branches in Him, that do not bear fruit.... He takes away.
A person in Christ is called a Christian.
A Christian, a person in Christ, that does not bear fruit, God Himself takes away.
These branches, that were at one time in Him, have been removed from Him, are gathered and thrown into the fire.
JLB
Kidron
Member
-
To begin with, we are not branches., We are Sons of God.
And "Sonship", is related to being born into a family.
Once this occurs, you can't be out of the family tree, you can only be a family member who is ither a good family member or a bad family member, but in the family tree you will stay, as behavior cannot undo Birthright.
Tell me the truth...
If you go and murder someone in the next month, are you STILL the son of your parents because you said you are sorry you did it, or because you are their "blood", their relation by birth?
So, if you told them you are glad you murdered and are not sorry, are you no longer IN your Parent's family because you wont REPENT?
So, can you understand that because the Blood of Christ and the Holy Spirit has created you as a "new BIRTH" into the FAMILY Of God, that you cant be put out of it because of murder, no matter if you say you are sorry or not or repent or not?
So that is why bad behavior, bad lifestyle, backsliding, whatever, cant separate you from God.
It cant be done.
Consider what i just showed you before you post more scriptures about vines and branches and men and fire.
I think it is more than "slight".
I don't think so.
I never made that point.
I disagree. Grieving the Holy Spirit means to sin.
That is not right. There are no verses that support the idea that one can "get free" or "remove themself" from being in union with Christ. The Holy Spirit seals us and we do not have the power to break that seal. Or Scripture would teach that. And it doesn't
Since none of these verses speak of the seal of the Holy Spirit being broken, I cannot accept such an idea.
In fact, the very purpose of the sealing with the Holy Spirit is FOR the day of redemption. And it's said to be a promise or pledge of God FOR the day of redemption. That clearly is about eternal security, which is exactly opposite of the idea that any person can break this seal of the Holy Spirit.
There is no part that I don't understand.
Jesus' whole point in Jn 15 is about production, not getting or staying saved. He had already told them that they were "clean" back in ch 13 with the exception of one of them (Judas). So this cannot refer to salvation.
To bear much fruit is about production. And Jesus used a farming or agricultural metaphor to make His point about fruit production.
Drew
Member
I don't see you argument at all. Consider this statement, made by a hypothetical school teacher before the beginning of the year:
If anyone does not abide in his studies, at the end of the year he will be forced to repeat the school year.
Would anyone ever deign to suggest that this teacher cannot be talking about future activities of students? Of course not.
The fact that the school has not started yet and there no students at the time the statement is made surely does not mean that is not a statement that characterizes students - some who will abide and some who will not.
Drew
Member
Jesus is clearly using a metaphorical analogy: Just as men cast branches into a fire, so will those who fall away be cast by God into a fire.
It is in the very nature of metaphor that some parts of the metaphor differ from that to which the metaphor refers.
Here is a well-known teaching from Jesus:
Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. [Luke 12:43-46, NKJV]
Using your reasoning, the master of the servant cannot represent God because, in the story here, he is clearly a human being.
And yet we all know that even though this master is a plain human being, the intention is that this person be understood as being God.
So it is with the teaching about being cast into the fire: It's an analogy (do I really need to say this?!) in which the men throwing branches into the fire stand for God who will, likewise, cast those who fall away into a different fire.
Kidron
Member
-
God will, at the Great White Throne Judgement, (Rev. 20:11) see to it that Christ rejectors are cast into.....the fire.
Absolutely.
However, there wont be a Son of God at that horrific spectacle, as all of those (Christians) will be at the Judgement Seat Of Christ, and that isn't a place of punishment/judgement.
So, your issue, is a misunderstanding of "judgements"., and hopefully you dont belong to a church that tries to jam Revelation 20:11 into 2nd Corinthians 5:10 where it will never ever fit, tho i suspect that this is exactly what is happening to JLB as well as you based on the theology you both post.
Drew
Member
Again, the branches are part of a metaphor, an analogy. Your objection here seems to deny the obvious: Jesus us using a metaphor.
Drew
Member
You are doing what FreeGrace does: you take a concept (for you it is the concept of sonship, for him it the concept of "irrevocable gift"), interpret in one particular sense, and think this means you can reject the rather plain teachings of other texts. Yes, we are referred to as "sons of God". But it is only in one restricted sense of the term son that the status of sonship cannot be revoked. And besides, as you have done with other metaphors, you argue as if all the precise details of the metaphor have to match the thing the metaphor refers to. And this is clearly not the case.
Yes, we are called Sons of God, but does that give you licence to extend the concept of sonship to all the details of human sonship?
Of course not. Using your reasoning, I could say that because I am son of God, I have:
1. God's DNA (like a real human son would have)
2. The responsibility to put God in a retirement home when He gets old (like a real human son would do).
3. etc.
This is what you and FreeGrace routinely do: you take concepts and stretch them like one would stretch the neckhole of a sweater and then you force the doctrine of OSAS through that stretched and distorted neckhole.
Kidron
Member
You are doing what FreeGrace does: you take a concept (for you it is the concept of sonship, for him it the concept of "irrevocable gift"),
First of all "Sonship" is not a concept, is a born again condition whereby a human has been "adopted" into the family of God with the same rights and privileges as Jesus Christ himself.
So, i dont make the mistake of not understanding this.
You do.
interpret in one particular sense, and think this means you can reject the rather plain teachings of other texts.
Actually, i think that you are the one who does this.
What i do is use more then Romans or Matthew to create my POV.
The fact is, the reason you never post anything from Colossians, Ephesians, Galatians, is because these letters contradict and end your argument.
Yes, we are called Sons of God, but does that give you licence to extend the concept of sonship to all the details of a human sonship?
The reason you dont understand the concept of "sonship" is because you dont believe it when Jesus said..."my Father and Your Father", and told you God is to be called "Abba".
So, based on how you think about "sonship" its easy to prove, as i just did, that you dont understand the idea of "Father" as it relates exactly to His position in a Believer's life.
You obviously dont even grasp the God the Father <> to Son relationship He has with every born again person, >is exactly like an earthly Father<.....with the exception that our earthly fathers are not God.
Last edited:
Jethro Bodine
Member
Don't forget about me! (Even though I'm putting less hours into the great debates in the church and will be retiring from that work soon
). Matthew 25 gives a more detailed account of what will be happening at the Judgment spoken about in Revelation 20 .
" 31“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me somethingto eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give Yousomething to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
" (Matthew 25:31-46 NASB)
When ALL THE NATIONS ARE GATHERED BEFORE HIM (vs. 32), Christ will measure who has the faith that justifies all by itself by the righteous love that justifying faith produces. No righteous acts of love means no faith in, and love for Christ to be justified by, so off to the lake of fire they will go. While those who do have the expected and obligatory mark of justifying faith--that is, works of righteousness--will enter into the kingdom.
Just as no bone dry person can claim they are swimming in the pool, so no works-less person can claim they are swimming in the pool of the Holy Spirit. Their lack of works showing their lack of the Holy Spirit--the Holy Spirit given to all those who have faith in the forgiveness of God in Christ.
Kidron
Member
Notice the context of all that you wrote, as given in vs 46.
Its found in the word "Righteous".
Notice...
"THESE", vs, "the righteous".
This would be the lost vs the saved.
The Christ rejectors vs the Born Again.
So, anytime you see the word "righteous" you always have to realized that with regards to "judgment" in eternity, this can only apply to a Christ Rejector, and this is because all eternal judgment for a Believer has been dealt with on the Cross.
See, God has already "judged" a Christian by laying the sins of a Christian on his Son on the cross who has died for them.
God is not going to "double judge"....... He is not going to judge Christ for our sins on a Cross, then judge us for them in eternity.
Thats not going to happen, so, keep this in mind when you are in the Book of Matthew or Hebrews and this way you wont become confused about the Blood Atonement.