If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[MarkT]

I never said anything like that. I said that Paul defined eternal life as a gift of God. Do you debate that??

We all know what "gift" means. And Paul defined eternal life as a gift of God.

Somehow you are putting yourself into a box when you say defined.

25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in,26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,

he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;

27 “and this will be my covenant with them

when I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:25-29

So Paul is making the case for Israel, that according to the things which God promised beforehand by the prophetic word, 'the Deliverer would come from Zion and banish ungodliness from Jacob', meaning his people. So he makes the case for his people. 'And this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.

So the covenant came into effect when Christ died on the cross; as we know, he took away our sins. So Paul is making the case for his people also, saying all Israel will be saved, saying the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable, which means God will not revoke or go back on his promise to banish all ungodliness from Jacob. God did not forget his people.

So what does Romans 11:29 have to do with always saved? I don't know.

 

[Kidron]

The RSV says 'be imitators of me'. It doesn't say be followers of me.

1 Corinthians 4:16
I urge you, then, be imitators of me.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, "refrain from taking a thread too far off topic." Which translation of scripture is better or worse is not even close to the subject of this thread. Obadiah)
And yes, you imitate Paul as He follows Christ, as i said.
No other Apostle told you to follow, imitate, chase, copy, ........them.
Only Paul tells you to do it.

 

[MarkT]

(Edited, ToS 2.4, "refrain from taking a thread too far off topic." Which translation of scripture is better or worse is not even close to the subject of this thread. Obadiah)
And yes, you imitate Paul as He follows Christ, as i said.
No other Apostle told you to follow, imitate, chase, copy, ........them.
Only Paul tells you to do it.

(Edited. Response to a deleted portion of a post. Obadiah.)

"But I, brethren, could not address you as spiritual men, but as men of the flesh, as babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk, not solid food; for you were not ready for it; and even yet you are not ready, 3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh, and behaving like ordinary men? 4 For when one says, “I belong to Paul,” and another, “I belong to Apol′los,” are you not merely men?

5 What then is Apol′los? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apol′los watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are equal, and each shall receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." 1Cor. 3:1-11

So when you say you belong to Paul are you not merely a man? The foundation is Jesus Christ. Even Paul would say so. Therefore keep his commandments.

 

[FreeGrace]

Somehow you are putting yourself into a box when you say defined.

I say "defined" because that is exactly what Paul did. He defined eternal life as a gift of God. Do you disagree?

25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in,26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,

he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;

27 “and this will be my covenant with them

when I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:25-29

I see NOTHING here referred to as a gift of God. v.27 may qualify as salvation, which Paul DEFINED as a gift in Eph 2:8. But even so, salvation and eternal life are equivalents. And both are irrevocable.

So Paul is making the case for Israel, that according to the things which God promised beforehand by the prophetic word, 'the Deliverer would come from Zion and banish ungodliness from Jacob', meaning his people. So he makes the case for his people. 'And this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.

Where's the "gift"?

So the covenant came into effect when Christ died on the cross; as we know, he took away our sins. So Paul is making the case for his people also, saying all Israel will be saved, saying the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable

OK, WHAT gifts, specifically? The ONLY place Paul described (is that a better word?) God's gifts is in regard to justification and eternal life.

which means God will not revoke or go back on his promise to banish all ungodliness from Jacob. God did not forget his people.

How do you know that is what Paul meant by 'gift' in 11:29? It seems you're just making up stuff.

So what does Romans 11:29 have to do with always saved? I don't know.

Salvation or eternal life is an irrevocable gift. That means that when God gives that gift, He NEVER revokes it.

How could that NOT be always saved?

 

[MarkT]

Everything. Every gift that comes from above

I say "defined" because that is exactly what Paul did. He defined eternal life as a gift of God. Do you disagree?

I see NOTHING here referred to as a gift of God. v.27 may qualify as salvation, which Paul DEFINED as a gift in Eph 2:8. But even so, salvation and eternal life are equivalents. And both are irrevocable.

Where's the "gift"?

OK, WHAT gifts, specifically? The ONLY place Paul described (is that a better word?) God's gifts is in regard to justification and eternal life.

How do you know that is what Paul meant by 'gift' in 11:29? It seems you're just making up stuff.

Salvation or eternal life is an irrevocable gift. That means that when God gives that gift, He NEVER revokes it.

How could that NOT be always saved?

Where is the word saved? Where is the word unbeliever? Is Paul really trying to make your point about former believers being saved. Is that why he said what he said? No. He's not saying it to make your point. Why does he bring up the prophecy and the covenant if he is not talking about the covenant? The call and the gifts were promised to his people. He is talking about his people and the promise that was made to his people and then he slips in former believers are always saved?

You want to know what the gifts are? Paul isn't specific because it doesn't matter. He is not making your point. If he was then he would not say branches were broken off because of their unbelief. Romans 11:20

 

[FreeGrace]

Where is the word saved?

In the Bible.

Where is the word unbeliever?

In the Bible.

It would be immensely helplful to clarify your questions a bit more.

Is Paul really trying to make your point about former believers being saved. Is that why he said what he said?

What does being a "former believer" have to do with anything? If one's on-going faith is required for on-going salvation, why hasn't the Bible EVER said so? While there are several verses encouraging believers to remain true, NONE (count them) add on a warning of loss of salvation is one doesn't remain true to the faith.

No. He's not saying it to make your point. Why does he bring up the prophecy and the covenant if he is not talking about the covenant? The call and the gifts were promised to his people.

I keep asking: what gifts were promised to Israel? Please answer.

He is talking about his people and the promise that was made to his people and then he slips in former believers are always saved?

He slips in nothing. The POINT is that eternal life, which is a gift from God, is irrevocable. Period. One may take from that whatever they desire.

But Paul's POINT is that eternal life is irrevocable.

You want to know what the gifts are? Paul isn't specific because it doesn't matter.

Debate over. They matter immensely. And Paul was VERY SPECIFIC in Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17 and 6:23 about what he defined or described as gifts of God.

This is unbelievable. Paul clearly defined/described what he called God's gifts, and your (Edited, ToS 2.4, trolling. Obadiah) response is that "it doesn't matter" what the gifts are.

So, that view just allows anyone to put in whatever gift they they want it to be.

He is not making your point.

Uh, debate over. Your point was not made.

If he was then he would not say branches were broken off because of their unbelief. Romans 11:20

He wasn't addressing salvation in that agricultural metaphor, obviously.

However, thanks for finally playing your hand and admitting that you cannot define what Paul meant by gifts and that it doesn't matter.

Even though Paul DID define what he meant by gifts before he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable.

 

[Kidron]

So when you say you belong to Paul are you not merely a man?

MT.......> You said i belong to Paul.
>you said that....
Ive never said this., (Edited, ToS 2.4, rudeness. Obadiah)
(Edited, ToS 2.4, unwelcome spiritual advice. Obadiah)


K

 

[Kidron]

(Post removed, ToS 2.4, "refrain from taking a thread too far off topic."Obadiah)

 

[reba]

closed for moderator review...

 

[Obadiah]

I don't know if I dare open this thread again for fear the problems will continue. Rest assured, further blatant ToS violations as we have seen even after an administrator's warning (Post 462) will be dealt with.

Thread is re-opened.

 

[MarkT]

In the Bible.


In the Bible.

It would be immensely helplful to clarify your questions a bit more.


What does being a "former believer" have to do with anything? If one's on-going faith is required for on-going salvation, why hasn't the Bible EVER said so? While there are several verses encouraging believers to remain true, NONE (count them) add on a warning of loss of salvation is one doesn't remain true to the faith.


I keep asking: what gifts were promised to Israel? Please answer.


He slips in nothing. The POINT is that eternal life, which is a gift from God, is irrevocable. Period. One may take from that whatever they desire.

But Paul's POINT is that eternal life is irrevocable.


Debate over. They matter immensely. And Paul was VERY SPECIFIC in Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17 and 6:23 about what he defined or described as gifts of God.

This is unbelievable. Paul clearly defined/described what he called God's gifts, and your (Edited, ToS 2.4, trolling. Obadiah) response is that "it doesn't matter" what the gifts are.

So, that view just allows anyone to put in whatever gift they they want it to be.


Uh, debate over. Your point was not made.


He wasn't addressing salvation in that agricultural metaphor, obviously.

However, thanks for finally playing your hand and admitting that you cannot define what Paul meant by gifts and that it doesn't matter.

Even though Paul DID define what he meant by gifts before he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable.

When Paul says the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable, 'the gifts' and 'the call of God' are working in conjunction with one another. It's not just the gifts; it's the gifts and the call of God. In other words, those who God calls will get the gifts. For example, God declared he would keep seven thousand men for himself. Romans 11:4 Will he do it? Of course. His call and his gifts are irrevocable. When he says, "I have kept for myself", he means they will be saved, and of course saved means eternal life. That's one gift, but there are others. There's also the gift of the Holy Spirit, faith, love, joy, the gift of prophecy, tongues, etc.

 

[FreeGrace]

When Paul says the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable, 'the gifts' and 'the call of God' are working in conjunction with one another.

Yes, I fully agree!! Both justification and eternal life go together, and those who have these gifts also have the gifts of the Spirit.

It's not just the gifts; it's the gifts and the call of God. In other words, those who God calls will get the gifts.

Not necessarily. The Greek word for "call" is klesis and means "to invite". iow, God's invitation is not revoked. And we know from Matt 22:14 that many are invited (called), but few are chosen.

For example, God declared he would keep seven thousand men for himself. Romans 11:4 Will he do it? Of course. His call and his gifts are irrevocable. When he says, "I have kept for myself", he means they will be saved, and of course saved means eternal life. That's one gift, but there are others. There's also the gift of the Holy Spirit, faith, love, joy, the gift of prophecy, tongues, etc.

This is not the discussion. Rom 11:29 is about the gifts that Paul had already described as gifts within the context of his letter. So, justification (3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (6:23) are irrevocable gifts. Along with the gifts of the Spirit (1:11). These are the only gifts mentioned by Paul before he wrote 11:29.

 

[JLB]

Yes, I fully agree!! Both justification and eternal life go together, and those who have these gifts also have the gifts of the Spirit.


Not necessarily. The Greek word for "call" is klesis and means "to invite". iow, God's invitation is not revoked. And we know from Matt 22:14 that many are invited (called), but few are chosen.


This is not the discussion. Rom 11:29 is about the gifts that Paul had already described as gifts within the context of his letter. So, justification (3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (6:23) are irrevocable gifts. Along with the gifts of the Spirit (1:11). These are the only gifts mentioned by Paul before he wrote 11:29.

Paul teaches clearly that the believer has a choice, which he teaches before Romans 11:29

Romans 6 -

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

...having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

If you choose to become a slave to sin, then your wages are death eternal.


Here is what Paul taught also, before Romans 11:29

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Romans 11:21-22


Do you believe that if someone is "cut off from God, they still have the eternal life that flows from Him, as a Vine provided life to the branch?

Jesus also uses the illustration of branches to teach this truth.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


A person must completely ignore these scriptures, and rearrange their meanings to come up with a doctrine such as OSAS.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Paul teaches clearly that the believer has a choice, which he teaches before Romans 11:29

Romans 6 -16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

...having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

If you choose to become a slave to sin, then your wages are death eternal.

Here is what Paul taught also, before Romans 11:29

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Romans 11:21-22
Do you believe that if someone is "cut off from God, they still have the eternal life that flows from Him, as a Vine provided life to the branch?

Jesus also uses the illustration of branches to teach this truth.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

A person must completely ignore these scriptures, and rearrange their meanings to come up with a doctrine such as OSAS.JLB

What would lead anyone to think that Paul was talking about the choice of losing one's salvation in Rom 6:16??????

 

[JLB]

What would lead anyone to think that Paul was talking about the choice of losing one's salvation in Rom 6:16??????

The plain and clear words Paul uses, of the context, are what lead us to believe he was talking about a Christian believer who chooses to obey sin rather than righteousness, and reaping the consequences of either eternal or eternal death.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:16-23


The Choice -

to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey:

• sin leading to death... For the end of those things is death.
  
• obedience leading to righteousness... so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

James says it this way -

But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
James 1:14-15


Mature full grown sin, brings forth death. Eternal Death.

The wages of sin is death.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace said: ↑
What would lead anyone to think that Paul was talking about the choice of losing one's salvation inRom 6:16??????

The plain and clear words Paul uses, of the context, are what lead us to believe he was talking about a Christian believer who chooses to obey sin rather than righteousness, and reaping the consequences of either eternal or eternal death.

Why would one add words to Scripture that AREN'T there??

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:16-23

OK, here's the verses. Except in 6:23, which speaks of eternal life, where is the word "eternal" in any preceeding verse?

The Choice -

to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey:

• sin leading to death... For the end of those things is death.
  
• obedience leading to righteousness... so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness

Yes, there is a choice that Paul presents. But it is a daily choice of who one will obey, with the consequences of either choice. Those who choose sin will suffer the SAME DEATH as the prodigal son; severance of fellowship with the Father. When the father in that parable said "my son was dead", he obviously wasn't speaking literally, but figuratively. He was speaking about fellowship, which had ceased. When the son returned, fellowship was restored, which is seen from the father's comment: "for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate."

James says it this way - But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
James 1:14-15
Mature full grown sin, brings forth death. Eternal Death.

There is no reason to assume that James was speaking of eternal death. He didn't say eternal, so it's presumption to think that's what he meant.

Consider this summary of King Saul:
1 Chron 10:13,14 - 13 So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it, 14 and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

Where do you suppose King Saul is today?

Well, the Bible tells us where he is. He's with Samuel, a true prophet of the Lord. We know this because Samuel showed up at a seance and told Saul where he'd be the next day.

1 Sam 28:19 - “Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the LORD will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!”

We know that Samuel went to Paradise and is now in heaven. That's where King Saul is too. The Bible says so.

The death of Saul is referred to in the NT as the "sin unto death", whereby God takes the disobedient child home "early". 1 John 5:16. The principle is seen in 1 Cor 11:30.

Your obsession to think that every reference to "death" in the NT refers to eternal death is off base.

Because King Saul joined Samuel disproves and refutes the theory of loss of salvation.

 

[JLB]

Your obsession to think that every reference to "death" in the NT refers to eternal death is off base.

Too bad I have never said such a thing.

The context dictates the meaning.

In Romans 6, it's clear.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:16-23

...whether of sin leading to death.


James says the same thing -

Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:15

Both James and Paul shown the end result of those who live a lifestyle of being a slave to sin. Death!

again

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Paul had warned them before, as he says, just as I also told you in time past... warning these Christians against living a lifestyle of sin, whereby the continually fulfill the desires of the flesh, and end up not inheriting the Kingdom of God.

Christians who do not inherit God's Kingdom, will here these words on the Day of Judgement -

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


Those who by patient endurance continue to practice righteousness, because they present their members as instruments of righteousness will hear these words from our Lord, on that Day -

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34


JLB

 

[JLB]

There is no reason to assume that James was speaking of eternal death. He didn't say eternal, so it's presumption to think that's what he meant.

Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:15

When sin is fully matured, full grown it brings forth death.

Death - Strong's Number: 2288 - Thanatos

Definition

1. the death of the body
   1. that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended
   2. with the implied idea of future misery in hell
      1. the power of death
   3. since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin
2. metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name,
   1. the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell
3. the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell
4. in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell

Context -

12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
James 1:12-15


James teaches of the man who has lived a life pleasing to God and shown his love for God by doing those things which prove a man's commitment to God,[ Which is obedience] and is therefore approved by God and receives the crown of life; Eternal Life.

By contrast James teaches the process by which a man is enticed into sin, and sin when it has completely matured brings forth death.
Eternal Death.

Crown of life = Eternal Life
Sin that continues unto full term = Eternal Death

JLB


JLB

 

[JLB]

Those who choose sin will suffer the SAME DEATH as the prodigal son; severance of fellowship with the Father. When the father in that parable said "my son was dead", he obviously wasn't speaking literally, but figuratively.

Did the son in the parable ever die physically?

Again, as I said, the context dictates.

The parable is a teaching about repentance.

The son in the parable represents a child of God, who strays from his Father's House to live a life of sinful pleasures.

Then the scripture says "he comes to himself" and returns in humility.

This is a picture of repentance, whereby the son turns away from his sinful life back to his Father to serve his Father.

His Father restores him back to son-ship.

However if the son does not repent and return, he will remain in the place of "death", and be lost forever.


Likewise, as James teaches, 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

If the prodigal son allows his sin to mature, and become full grown without the act of turning away and being restored to his Father, from Whom he has "turned away", this full grown fully matured sin, will bring forth death, which is an eternity separated from God.

In other words the son will continue to be separated, by his act of disobedience to turn away from his Father, for eternity.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Too bad I have never said such a thing.

That's pretty much how you view the verses that mention "death".

The context dictates the meaning.

In Romans 6, it's clear.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:16-23

...whether of sin leading to death.

Again, there is nothing in this context that suggests eternal death or life, for that matter.

It's all been explained. One is free to accept or reject it.

But, the proof of eternal security is clear in Scripture. Not only is the free gift of eternal life irrevocable, Paul taught eternal security in Ephesians and 2 Cor through the sealing with the Holy Spirit.

To top things off, even King Saul went to heaven, because Samuel told him so by telling him that on the next day, he would be joining him.

It could not be more clear that once saved and a child of God, always a child of God and saved.