If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Why would anyone think this verse supports the theory that loss of faith results in loss of salvation?? I do not see anything in these 3 verses that indicates that idea?"

I know you don't see.... It's called blindness.

lol. You never answered my question. What is in those 3 verses that indicates that loss of faith results in loss of salvation? The fact that my question was ignores clearly indicates that there isn't an answer coming. Just some snarkiness.

Peter warns us of this very thing.

But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
2 Peter 1:5-9JLB

How does this relate to the 3 verses you provided that don't say what you've claimed they say? The blindness Peter spoke of refers to the fact that believers who have lacked diligence in adding to their faith have forgotten that they were cleansed from their old sins.

But again, you've provided verses that have no relevance to the topic being discussed.

But, speaking of blindness (which you brought up), why have you continued to be blind to the very clear statements of Scripture regarding the fact that when one believes they ARE NOW the sons or children of God?

Jn 1:12, Gal 3:26 - "For you ARE all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus" and 1 Jn 3:2 - "Dear friends, NOW we ARE children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is."

When Scripture is this clear, there is no excuse for one's spiritual blindness.

 

[JLB]

lol. You never answered my question. What is in those 3 verses that indicates that loss of faith results in loss of salvation? The fact that my question was ignores clearly indicates that there isn't an answer coming. Just some snarkiness.

Every scripture I have posted over and over, with the corresponding scriptures that validate and teach us that salvation comes at the end of our faith, that we need to continue in the faith to the end and continue to believe, and not be moved away from the hope of the Gospel...

All you seem to say is, that doesn't mean this of that... That is your response to the many places we are warned about walking in the flesh, and the consequences of not inheriting the kingdom, about walking in the flesh and being condemned, about departing from the living God, about not continuing to remain connected to Him as a branch, resulting in being disconnected from Him and cast into the fire...

Over and over you have been presented the truth by many here on this Forum, with many scriptures that speak plainly about our salvation, and your answer to all these things is... I don't see...

There comes a point where I just have to say, the reason you don't see, is because you can't see.

You prefer to explain away what the scriptures plainly say, in exchange for what you say.

5“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:5-6

Abide = Remain

We are the branches that are connected to the Vine.

Any branches that are connected to the Vine, that do not remain connected to the vine, are throw into the fire and burned.

Jesus simply warned us that it is indeed possible for a person who is in Him, to later become disconnected from Him, by using this illustration of a branch and it's relationship to remain connected to the Vine.

Cast into the fire and burned is unmistakable.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jn 1:12, Gal 3:26 - "For you ARE all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus" and 1 Jn 3:2 - "Dear friends, NOW we ARE children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is."

When Scripture is this clear, there is no excuse for one's spiritual blindness.

A.] You are sons of God through faith. Faith means you are hoping for what you do not have...

and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is."

That's when we will obtain our salvation, when He appears... He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Heb 9:28

B.] Being a son of God does not exempt you from becoming disconnected from Him and cast into hell. [Not inheriting the Kingdom]


Peter warns us concerning angels, who are sons of God -

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell...

Context -
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”


For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

Peter plain states. it will be better for unbelievers who have never known or experienced the way of righteousness, by which they have escaped the corrupting influences of the world, than those who have indeed known the way, and turned back and served the world because they were overcome again, and brought back into bondage as a slave to it.

4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4-5

Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.


JLB

 

[younglite]

I was born and raised on "once saved, always saved." Later in life, I began reading Scripture in earnest. I began to notice that the "proof Scriptures" of this doctrine were inconsistent with other Scriptures I was reading. I did an extensive, years-long study of this subject, and came to the conclusion that I had been reading Scripture through the lens of my belief, rather than allowing Scripture to mean what it says. The gift of eternal life itself is much different than having eternal security.

My "thesis" on this would take forever to read on this thread, but the bottom line? A believer will never "lose" his salvation. But one can wander away from being a believer. The apostles called these once-believers "apostates" who "fall away."

Jesus simply warned us that it is indeed possible for a person who is in Him, to later become disconnected from Him, by using this illustration of a branch and it's relationship to remain connected to the Vine.

The cutting off of branches is consistent with Romans 11:17-22. After being grafted in as unnatural branches (after unbelieving Jews were cut off), we are warned that we could be cut off, too.

"...for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."

Hebrews 6:8 also mirrors the branches in John 15:6...

"but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and to being cursed, and it ends up being burned."

If you're willing to believe God responded to faith in the OT just as he did in the NT, then consider Ezekiel 18:24

“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die." (also found in ch. 33:12-13)

In Jeremiah 3:8, God actually gave a certificate of divorce to Israel for her continued unfaithfulness. Yes, she had been chosen and set apart, but she continued in her treachery, thus God sent her away.

There are many passages about blotting peoples name from the Lamb's Book of Life.
Exodus 32:32-33, Deut 9:14, 29:20, 2 Kings 14:27 (Israel not blotted out, but later God does blot them through divorcing them), Psalm 69:28 – same book of life found in Rev 20:15, Psalm 109:13, Rev 3:5.

No, no one else can pluck you from the hand of the Father, but there's a reason you must endure to the end. There's a reason "longsuffering," "endurance," and "patience" are written as part of our calling.

It was hard for me to change this belief. I resisted it even as I read these passages. But I also read the early church father's writings, and it is clear they had no such belief as "eternal security." 2 Peter 3:17 calls our place secure in God, but also says we can fall away from it.
Always believe what you read, and do not read your beliefs into what you're reading...

 

[JLB]

and came to the conclusion that I had been reading Scripture through the lens of my belief, rather than allowing Scripture to mean what it says.

:amen

Welcome to CF Net, Brother.

Your words are refreshing!


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Every scripture I have posted over and over, with the corresponding scriptures that validate and teach us that salvation comes at the end of our faith, that we need to continue in the faith to the end and continue to believe, and not be moved away from the hope of the Gospel…

Your misunderstanding of all those verses has been totally refuted by the verses that tell us that we ARE NOW the sons of God. Not later.

All you seem to say is, that doesn't mean this of that…

Because they don't mean what you think. Proven and refuted by 3 simple and clear verses:
Jn 1:12, Gal 3:26 and 1 Jn 5:19.

5“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:5-6

Abide = Remain

We are the branches that are connected to the Vine.

Any branches that are connected to the Vine, that do not remain connected to the vine, are throw into the fire and burned.

More misunderstanding what "abiding" is about. Just as NO believer causes themself to be "in union with Christ", or sealed with the Holy Spirit, NO believer can severe that union. And God has promised that His sealing is a guarantee for the day of redemption. So, talk about "not seeing". That's on you.

Jesus simply warned us that it is indeed possible for a person who is in Him, to later become disconnected from Him, by using this illustration of a branch and it's relationship to remain connected to the Vine.

No, He was talking about fellowship, not relationship, which is permanent.

Just as parent-child is a PERMANENT relationship, yet the fellowship may wax or wane, so is the spiritual relationship with God. It is PERMANENT, and guaranteed by God Himself, yet the fellowship may wax or wane.

 

[FreeGrace]

A.] You are sons of God through faith. Faith means you are hoping for what you do not have…

I gave the lexical meaning of the Greek word for 'hope'. It ain't "wishing for…" as it appears you are insinuating. It means CONFIDENT EXPECTATION.

That's when we will obtain our salvation, when He appears... He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Heb 9:28

So then, you've rejected the clear words of your Lord?? Jn 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Please explain how the word "has" means something future.

Being a son of God does not exempt you from becoming disconnected from Him and cast into hell. [Not inheriting the Kingdom]

Your opinion is NOT taught in Scripture. Nowhere is that found in Scripture. Our RELATIONSHIP to God is PERMANENT and GUARANTEED by Him. Our fellowship is the issue in spiritual growth.

Peter warns us concerning angels, who are sons of God -

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell…

Worst case of apples to oranges yet.

Were any angels "born again"? Please answer.

 

[FreeGrace]

I was born and raised on "once saved, always saved." Later in life, I began reading Scripture in earnest. I began to notice that the "proof Scriptures" of this doctrine were inconsistent with other Scriptures I was reading. I did an extensive, years-long study of this subject, and came to the conclusion that I had been reading Scripture through the lens of my belief, rather than allowing Scripture to mean what it says. The gift of eternal life itself is much different than having eternal security.

My "thesis" on this would take forever to read on this thread, but the bottom line? A believer will never "lose" his salvation. But one can wander away from being a believer. The apostles called these once-believers "apostates" who "fall away."

The reason the verses on OSAS were "inconsistent" with other verses is because of a misunderstanding of those other verses.

The verses on OSAS are crystal clear:
Eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23). God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).
God seals every believer with the Holy Spirit as a GUARANTEE FOR the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5.

No, no one else can pluck you from the hand of the Father

Uh, the verse says "no one", not "no one else". And to say "no one" really means "not any person". If a believer qualifies as a person, then even the believer himself CANNOT remove himself from God's hand. Plain and simple.

but there's a reason you must endure to the end.

Context is always king. And in those passages, the "end" refers directly to the Tribulation only. Not generally for everyone in the human race. Those verses have nothing to do with enduring for eternal salvation. They have to do with being delivered thourgh the Tribulation.

There's a reason "longsuffering," "endurance," and "patience" are written as part of our calling.

Because we'll be rewarded for it. Peter calls it an "abundant entrance into the kingdom" in 2 Pet 1:11, as opposed to just entering the kingdom.

It was hard for me to change this belief.

Sure. Because the Scripture is so clear about OSAS.

I resisted it even as I read these passages. But I also read the early church father's writings, and it is clear they had no such belief as "eternal security."

btw, the 'early church fathers' rather quickly got into all kinds of false doctrine. I wouldn't put any value on very much of what they wrote. By the 2nd century, they had abandoned the idea of grace altogether.

 

[JLB]

I gave the lexical meaning of the Greek word for 'hope'. It ain't "wishing for…" as it appears you are insinuating. It means CONFIDENT EXPECTATION.

Lexical "meaning" is commentary.

Regardless, our hope is for salvation.

Faith is the substance (not the reality) of the thing (salvation) we are hoping for... HEB 11:1

For who is still hoping for what they have already obtained. Romans 8:24

We, along with Paul are waiting to obtain the reality of what we are hoping for, by faith in Jesus Christ.

Waiting with perseverance.


JLB

 

[MarkT]

Please provide Scriptural support to support this claim. If it's true, the Bible will support the claim. If not true, the Bible won't. Please provide support from the Bible.


Where is that found in Scripture? Seems a lot of stuff is being made up.

If the covenant isn't a gift, then what SPECIFICALLY is Paul referring to in 11:29? My view is what he already defined as gifts in Romans (context, you know). Justification and eternal life were specifically defined as gifts.

So, if these aren't what Paul was referring to in 11:29, please, please, please show where in Romans Paul was referring to something else. You've admitted 'gift' doesn't refer to covenants. So what then?

Common sense and context; It's in the use of the word revoke. To revoke is to put an end to the validity or operation of (a decree, decision, or promise): the men appealed and the sentence was revoked.

In context, Paul is asking about his people. Did God forget his promise to his people? Paul says no. The covenant has not been revoked. In other words, God has not gone back on his promise to Israel. Those he calls from the Jews will receive the gifts as promised because his call and his gifts are irrevocable.

Common sense. No one revokes a gift. And how do you revoke a call? You don't return a gift and say, "I revoked it." You don't lose a gift and say, "I revoked it." No one would understand you. So just by the use of the word irrevocable we know Paul is talking about the covenant God made with Israel and his descendants.

Again, to revoke is to put an end to or cancel a promise.

God is faithful

God does not revoke his covenants.

Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the Lord your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

 

[younglite]

The reason the verses on OSAS were "inconsistent" with other verses is because of a misunderstanding of those other verses.

I guess you didn't read those verses. They don't require tricky interpretation. They're pretty straightforward. It's fine to say I misinterpreted them, but please tell me which verses I misinterpreted and how I did so.

Ezekiel 18:24 - please explain clearly how God really didn't mean he would forget the deeds of the righteous man after the man becomes wicked again (and read the context of the whole chapter since you already understand context is king).

Jeremiah 3:8 - please explain how God really didn't divorce Israel.

Romans 11:17-22 - please explain how God doesn't really break off branches.

Please explain how God doesn't blot people's names from the Book of Life.
Exodus 32:32-33, Deut 9:14, 29:20, 2 Kings 14:27, Psalm 69:28 , Rev 20:15, Psalm 109:13, Rev 3:5.

Another passage i haven't shared yet - you can use your "lose-your-rewards" argument in 2 John, verse 8. But since you understand how important context is, verse 9 clearly says this context is not about losing rewards. It's about abiding in Christ, having God in your life or not. It says Please explain to me how I am misinterpreting this context.

That's all for now. If people are genuinely curious, I am happy to discuss. I simply shared my story for those willing to consider it. Whether you say they were never really saved to begin with (the only argument OSAS folks have), or whether you believe that Scripture says people fall away from faith - the end result is the same. Those who have the evidence of their faith spend eternity with Christ.

What's scary for me is my friends and family who were true followers of Christ for decades, but have since strayed. Having spoken with them, they believe OSAS, so "they're good." Because I have a nephew who died recently, my family is mad at me for believing otherwise. He showed himself to be a follower of Christ for years, but in his latter years, he rejected the faith. He was killed while driving himself drunk. My family needs to believe in OSAS so they can believe they'll see him again. This is not just some intellectual exercise for me. It's very personal. I wish I could believe it. But my commitment to the integrity of Scripture won't allow it.

 

[FreeGrace]

Lexical "meaning" is commentary.

No, it's dictionary meaning.

Regardless, our hope is for salvation.

One may hope for salvation. Scripture teaches KNOW SO salvation. Guaranteed by the sealing with the Holy Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace]

Common sense and context; It's in the use of the word revoke. To revoke is to put an end to the validity or operation of (a decree, decision, or promise): the men appealed and the sentence was revoked.

In context, Paul is asking about his people. Did God forget his promise to his people? Paul says no. The covenant has not been revoked. In other words, God has not gone back on his promise to Israel. Those he calls from the Jews will receive the gifts as promised because his call and his gifts are irrevocable.

What gifts to the Jews? Where does Paul define any gifts to the Jews?

Common sense. No one revokes a gift. And how do you revoke a call? You don't return a gift and say, "I revoked it." You don't lose a gift and say, "I revoked it."

All this is meaningless. When the Bible says that God's gifts are irrevocable, it means He won't take them back.

So just by the use of the word irrevocable we know Paul is talking about the covenant God made with Israel and his descendants.

No, he was referring to what he defined as gifts of God: justification and eternal life.

Again, to revoke is to put an end to or cancel a promise.

Correct. And God's Word promises that God WON'T revoke His gifts of justification and eternal life.

Since Paul never defined God's covenant as gifts, your analysis is flawed. He defined both justification and eternal life as gifts of God. And those are irrevocable.

 

[JLB]

No, it's dictionary meaning.

Yes, man's commentary.

 

[FreeGrace]

Ezekiel 18:24 - please explain clearly how God really didn't mean he would forget the deeds of the righteous man after the man becomes wicked again (and read the context of the whole chapter since you already understand context is king).

In this context, death here is physical, not eternal.

Jeremiah 3:8 - please explain how God really didn't divorce Israel.

He did. It says so. Please explain how this relates to loss of salvation.

Romans 11:17-22 - please explain how God doesn't really break off branches.

The context here is an agricultural metaphor. When branches no longer produce fruit, they are unuseful to the farmer, so he discards them. The analogy is that just as useless branches are not useful to the farmer and he discards them, so also those believers who aren't useful to God for service are discarded for service. We see that principle time and time again in the OT regarding Israel. This has nothing to do with loss of salvation.

Please explain how God doesn't blot people's names from the Book of Life.
Exodus 32:32-33, Deut 9:14, 29:20, 2 Kings 14:27, Psalm 69:28 , Rev 20:15, Psalm 109:13, Rev 3:5.

He doesn't. Please prove from Scripture that God didn't put every person's name in the book of life, and when those who never believed died, He blotted their names from that book.

Or, prove from Scripture that God puts names into the book of life WHEN one believes.

Either way.

Another passage i haven't shared yet - you can use your "lose-your-rewards" argument in 2 John, verse 8. But since you understand how important context is, verse 9 clearly says this context is not about losing rewards. It's about abiding in Christ, having God in your life or not. It says Please explain to me how I am misinterpreting this context.

You are misunderstanding this passage because to "abide in Christ" is something we are commanded to do. It is about fellowship with Christ. It has NOTHING to do with relationship. That (our relationship with God) is sealed by the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption.

That's all for now. If people are genuinely curious, I am happy to discuss. I simply shared my story for those willing to consider it. Whether you say they were never really saved to begin with (the only argument OSAS folks have), or whether you believe that Scripture says people fall away from faith - the end result is the same. Those who have the evidence of their faith spend eternity with Christ.

What's scary for me is my friends and family who were true followers of Christ for decades, but have since strayed. Having spoken with them, they believe OSAS, so "they're good." Because I have a nephew who died recently, my family is mad at me for believing otherwise. He showed himself to be a follower of Christ for years, but in his latter years, he rejected the faith. He was killed while driving himself drunk. My family needs to believe in OSAS so they can believe they'll see him again. This is not just some intellectual exercise for me. It's very personal. I wish I could believe it. But my commitment to the integrity of Scripture won't allow it.

Please show me how these verses don't really guarantee the believer's security for the day of redemption:

Paul clearly taught eternal security in these verses:

Eph 1:13,14 - 13InHim, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:22 - who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

So, what has Paul taught here?

First, having believed, we are SEALED IN HIM (union with Christ) with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, given as a PLEDGE FOR the day of redemption of God's own possession. This seal is a PLEDGE from God.

And consider this verse:
Heb 6:18 - so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.

So, for one to accept your view of loss of salvation, 2 things are required:

1. Either prove by exegesis that Eph 1:13,14 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 do NOT teach eternal security, or
2. Accept that God DOES break His promises and pledges, which makes Him a liar. Even though Scripture SAYS that it is impossible for God to lie. Titus 1:2 and Heb 6:18

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, man's commentary.

Have you set yourself up as more scholarly than those who have studied the Greek intensely over their lifetimes and KNOW the Greek language?

 

[JLB]

One may hope for salvation. Scripture teaches KNOW SO salvation. Guaranteed by the sealing with the Holy Spirit.

I have never seen a scripture that teaches us that it's impossible to become unsealed.

Yes, as long as we have the Holy Spirit, we have the guarantee that insures our salvation.

Unfortunately, there will be some who disregard the precious blood of Jesus and insult the Spirit of Grace, and draw back to perdition, ending up reaping God;s vengeance.

29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God...But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:29-31,39

and again -

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come...

So it is possible for a person to have partaken of the Holy Spirit and tasted of His power, to later on fall away.


JLB

 

[JLB]

He did. It says so. Please explain how this relates to loss of salvation.

If you are longer one with The Lord in Covenant relationship, as a man and woman are one through the marriage relationship, then you have become disconnected from Him and His life, like a branch that becomes disconnected from the Vine and receives life from the Vine.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17


JLB

 

[JLB]

Have you set yourself up as more scholarly than those who have studied the Greek intensely over their lifetimes and KNOW the Greek language?

Your the one using man's commentary, not me.

 

[JLB]

You are misunderstanding this passage because to "abide in Christ" is something we are commanded to do. It is about fellowship with Christ. It has NOTHING to do with relationship. That (our relationship with God) is sealed by the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption.

That's funny!

A branch is connected permanently to the Vine in relationship, or it withers and dies, because it no longer receives the life that is provided by the Vine.




JLB