If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[FreeGrace]

God killed King Saul?

Please show the scripture that states this?

A more accurate argument would be: King Saul committed suicide, and still went to paradise with Samuel.
JLB

1 Chron 10:13 and 14 - 13 So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it, 14 and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

Please notice the bolded phrase. The word "He" is capitalized, indicating God Himself.

Also note that I always provide verses to back up my beliefs.

While Saul did "fall on his sword", we know that the arrow from a Philistine was guided by God Himself.

I am interested in how the insecurity crowd handles the issue of Saul joining Samuel after death, since they believe that salvation can be lost.

If anyone is at risk of losing their salvation, it would seem that Saul certainly was. Yet, in spite of being killed by God, he still joined Samuel after death.

That one example refutes the notion that one can lose salvation.

 

[JLB]

While Saul did "fall on his sword", we know that the arrow from a Philistine was guided by God Himself.

Unfortunately for you, it was not the Philistines arrow that killed Saul, but that he fell on his sword.

13 So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance. 14 But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.1 Chronicles 10:13-14


16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy?
17 And the Lord has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day.19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines." 1 Samuel 15:16-19


3 The battle became fierce against Saul. The archers hit him, and he was severely wounded by the archers.
4 Then Saul said to his armorbearer, "Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it, lest these uncircumcised men come and thrust me through and abuse me." But his armorbearer would not, for he was greatly afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it. 1 Samuel 31:3-4

Saul acted upon God's will, according to the word of the Lord that said...the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me.


Like any work of faith, it is God working together with man to bring about His result

We are saved by grace through faith.

It is God who gives us the faith to be saved, but it is man who must act on this faith, in obedience to bring about the divine result.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Unfortunately for you, it was not the Philistines arrow that killed Saul, but that he fell on his sword.

Those who actually read my post already know that. Are you suggesting that God had no influence on that arrow?

3 The battle became fierce against Saul. The archers hit him, and he was severely wounded by the archers.
4 Then Saul said to his armorbearer, "Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it, lest these uncircumcised men come and thrust me through and abuse me." But his armorbearer would not, for he was greatly afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it. 1 Samuel 31:3-4

The REASON Saul committed suicide was because of the arrow fired by an archer.

It is God who gives us the faith to be saved, but it is man who must act on this faith, in obedience to bring about the divine result.

Yes, the faith (noun) that God gives is what we are supposed to believe.

edited the snark

 

[MarkT]

I have no idea why there is so much persistence about the branches. It was an agricultural metaphor about service. The Jews, as God's chosen people, failed in their service, and He set them, as a people, aside and has turned to the Gentiles. Why? To make them jealous, per Rom 11:11. Hm. SAME chapter, no less.

Unless one understands context properly, one cannot understand what God's Word is saying. The branches comment has NO relevance to loss of salvation.

To make them jealous and so save some of them, and they were broken off because of their unbelief, and if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Romans 11:13-22

What do you mean failed in their service? What service? They were broken off because of unbelief. Where do you get he set them aside?

The fruit of the Spirit of truth is truth. And this is the truth. Dead branches are broken off and burned. Those who do not obey the Son shall not see life.
John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

Paul's teaching comes from Jesus who said he was the true vine, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John 5:5-6

Branches are consumed in a fire.

Paul had previously described what he means by the gifts of God. Justification and eternal life are the ONLY things described as gifts of God.

In this particular letter he refers to the gift of eternal life, the gift of righteousness, the gift of reconciliation through our Lord Jesus Christ Ro. 5:10-11 and then he talks about the gifts of the Spirit. Romans 12:6

So what's your point?

Jesus said those who believe in him will never die, and those who do not believe in him are condemned.
John 3:18
He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

In order to believe this, please provide clear Scripture where God's promises to Abraham and his descendants are described as gifts. Otherwise, there is no reason to believe this.

I didn't say the promise is the gift. The promise is who ever believes in Jesus Christ shall have eternal life
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
and the gifts of the Spirit.

Glad you're finally getting on board here.
"This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life." 1 Jn 2:25

Why would one continue to resist the idea that God's promise of eternal life could be revoked?

Now you're saying God's promise of eternal life can not be revoked. That's better.

 

[JLB]

Those who actually read my post already know that. Are you suggesting that God had no influence on that arrow?

A more accurate statement/question would be... Are you suggesting that God had no influence on all those different arrows?

The archers hit him, and he was severely wounded by the archers.

This indicates several arrows struck Saul.

The REASON Saul committed suicide was because of the arrow fired by an archer.

Ahhhh, so now it's Saul committed suicide, whereas before you stated God killed him.

Saul committed suicide because his armorbearor wouldn't honor Saul's request to put him to death.

Then Saul said to his armorbearer, "Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it, lest these uncircumcised men come and thrust me through and abuse me." But his armorbearer would not, for he was greatly afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it.

Yes, the faith (noun) that God gives is what we are supposed to believe.

Faith is what God gives us. Obey is what we do to show we believe.


That's why the bible calls it the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


The commandment of the everlasting God to all mankind is to Repent.

Return to God, be reconciled back to God, turn away from Satan to God who loves you and sent His only Son to redeem you.

Repent is God's call to Mankind to come out of hiding, to come out of darkness into His marvelous light.

That's why is called the obedience of faith.


JLB

 

[reba]

How ever God had Saul killed doesn't matter .. IF God had not wanted Saul dead he would be alive.

 

[JLB]

How ever God had Saul killed doesn't matter .. IF God had not wanted Saul dead he would be alive.

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Saul is alive with Samuel.


JLB

 

[reba]

then he did not commit suicide?

 

[JLB]

then he did not commit suicide?

Is Samuel dead?

 

[reba]

dodge again? try a ford...

 

[MarkT]

What does your crowd do with King Saul, who was killed by God for consulting a medium (1 Chron 10:13,14) yet was told by Samuel that he would join Samuel the next day (1 Sam 28:19)?

King Saul was a failure as king. And God killed him because of his repeated disobedience. Yet, at his death, he joined Samuel. And there is no explanation from your side.

What to you want to know? You are right when you say the LORD slew him. The LORD did it to Saul as he spoke by Samuel. The woman said she saw a god coming out of the earth. 1 Samuel 28:13 Samuel had already died and he was buried. So this is what Samuel meant when he said Saul would be with him; he meant Saul would be with him in the earth. Dead.

 

[JLB]

dodge again? try a ford...

No dodge, just a question, similar to yours.

Is Samuel dead?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Now you're saying God's promise of eternal life can not be revoked. That's better.

Let me be clear: Paul SAID that God's gifts (that's eternal life itself, not just a promise) is irrevocable.

There is no way any promise of anything can rightly be called a gift. That's just absurd.

When God promises something, He always carries through. Otherwise, He'd be a liar.

But, promises are NOT gifts.

Promises are words. Gifts are the result of promises.

 

[FreeGrace]

Ahhhh, so now it's Saul committed suicide, whereas before you stated God killed him.

Why is there so much disingenuousness in your posts. I gave the verse that ACTUALLY says that God killed him. Didn't you read it?

Saul committed suicide because his armorbearor wouldn't honor Saul's request to put him to death.

1 Chron 10:14 says that God killed him. iow, God was the ultimate cause of his death.

 

[FreeGrace]

How ever God had Saul killed doesn't matter .. IF God had not wanted Saul dead he would be alive.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"What does your crowd do with King Saul, who was killed by God for consulting a medium (1 Chron 10:13,14) yet was told by Samuel that he would join Samuel the next day (1 Sam 28:19)?

King Saul was a failure as king. And God killed him because of his repeated disobedience. Yet, at his death, he joined Samuel. And there is no explanation from your side."

What to you want to know?

My request was quite clear. Saul is with Samuel today, even though he was an awful king who regularly disobeyed God's commands.

You are right when you say the LORD slew him. The LORD did it to Saul as he spoke by Samuel. The woman said she saw a god coming out of the earth. 1 Samuel 28:13 Samuel had already died and he was buried. So this is what Samuel meant when he said Saul would be with him; he meant Saul would be with him in the earth. Dead.

I figured that kind of a silly response. Why would a SAVED prophet of God, who WAS in Paradise, and sent back to earth to tell Saul what was coming, to only mean that he would die and be in the earth??

Unless there is solid evidence that Saul's body was buried right next to Samuel's body, your answer fails at every level.

Samuel was telling Saul that he would be with him in Paradise the next day.

 

[JLB]

My request was quite clear. Saul is with Samuel today, even though he was an awful king who regularly disobeyed God's commands.

The scripture actually list's two reasons, two sins, that Saul committed.

13 So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance. 14 But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse. 1 Chronicles 10:13-14

Unlike those who Paul described as being warned over and over not to walk in the lust's of the flesh...

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

Saul was given much, and therefore God expected much more from him.


Likewise those of us who have been given God's Spirit, and relationship with Him, have been given much as well.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The scripture actually list's two reasons, two sins, that Saul committed.

13 So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance. 14 But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse. 1 Chronicles 10:13-14

Unlike those who Paul described as being warned over and over not to walk in the lust's of the flesh...

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

Saul was given much, and therefore God expected much more from him.

Likewise those of us who have been given God's Spirit, and relationship with Him, have been given much as well.
JLB

The point remains: in spite of his awful performance, he did not lose his salvation.

 

[JLB]

Let me be clear: Paul SAID that God's gifts (that's eternal life itself, not just a promise) is irrevocable.

No, He didn't.

You have never posted a scripture to prove your claim.

Romans 11:29 does not even have the word eternal or life in it.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

No, He didn't.

Yes, He did.

You have never posted a scripture to prove your claim.

This is just a very disingenuous statement, as everyone knows.

Romans 11:29 does not even have the word eternal or life in it.JLB

Doesn't need to. Paul had already described what he meant by "gifts" in Rom 3:24 (justification) and Rom 6:23 (eternal life).

Those who actually understand what "context" means have no problem understanding that Rom 11:29 refers to the gifts of justification and eternal life. Those who don't understand what context means horribly misunderstand lots of Scripture.

Since there is disagreement about what Paul was referring to in Rom 11:29, please show the forum where Paul defined what he meant by "gifts" in 11:29.

To do that would require finding a verse somewhere between 1:1 and 11:29 where Paul described something as God's gifts.

Oh, and while you're at it, please find a verse where Paul was clear that he didn't mean justifiation and eternal life in 11:29.

If those things can be done, you'll convince me of my error. But if not, then, well, we'll all know that your view is the one in error.

I've shown where Paul defined God's gifts very plainly. You've not done that, nor has anyone else.

Why should your view be accepted when you've failed to do that?