If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[JLB]

These Christians in the Church at Galatia, were warned by Paul that practicing the works of the flesh, would eventually lead them to not inherit the kingdom of God.


19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

Here we go again. There are 2 other parallel passages; 1 Cor 6:9,10 - 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. and Eph 5:5 - For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

So, whether it's phrased "will not inherit" or "has no inheritance" means the SAME THING. The phrase has nothing to do with not entering the kingdom, as some think.[/QUOTE]


Unfortunately for you and OSAS, The Lord Jesus Christ, defined the meaning for us, and the Apostles.


31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34

Those servants of His, on His right hand, were blessed of God the Father and they inherited His Kingdom.

While those of His servants on His left hand were cursed, and did not inherit the kingdom of God.


41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

If a person does not inherit God's kingdom, then they will inherit the kingdom of darkness, and will reap the same reward as the devil and his angels.


And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46


Please do not try and redefine the words of Jesus Christ.


Inherit the kingdom = Blessed; Eternal Life

Do not inherit the Kingdom = Cursed; banished to the everlasting fires of hell with the devil and his angels



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

It doesn't matter what you think of the caliber of Samuel or where Samuel is or where he should be based on your theology, the Scripture says otherwise. The medium saw him coming out of the earth.
1 Samuel 28:13
The king said to her, “Have no fear; what do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.”

Yes, that is obviously where sheol is. He wasn't coming out of a grave as you insinuate.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The covenant promises a call? And gifts? Where, please?"

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.” Romans 11:26-27

OK, please advise to where I may find the words "call" and "gifts". I seem to have missed them.

Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. Heb. 8:6

Acts 2:39
For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”

OK, I agree. Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. But how does that relate to the discussion of calling and gifting?

So far, nothing of what you've posted supports your view of what the calling and gifts are in Rom 11:29.

 

[MarkT]

I said this:
"The covenant promises a call? And gifts? Where, please?"

OK, please advise to where I may find the words "call" and "gifts". I seem to have missed them.


OK, I agree. Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. But how does that relate to the discussion of calling and gifting?

So far, nothing of what you've posted supports your view of what the calling and gifts are in Rom 11:29.

Doesn't the new covenant promise all those things we are talking about?

 

[FreeGrace]

Doesn't the new covenant promise all those things we are talking about?

How does that equate to Paul's use of "gifts" in Rom 11:29 to refer to a covenant? It does NOT. Paul specifically defined what he meant by gifts, and it wasn't "covenant".

The gifts that he specifically defined are justification and eternal life.

Do you believe that both justification and eternal life are irrevovcable, or not?

 

[MarkT]

I already told you the gifts and the covenant are not the same thing. So why do you keep repeating this straw man?

I believe what Jesus said

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

 

[JLB]

How does that equate to Paul's use of "gifts" in Rom 11:29 to refer to a covenant? It does NOT. Paul specifically defined what he meant by gifts, and it wasn't "covenant".

That's exactly what Paul is referring to is covenant.

It's extremely deceitful to rearrange and redefine the meanings of words to suit your own man made doctrine.

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:16-22

again -

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1,6


Branches that do not produce fruit, are removed and thrown into the fire.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I already told you the gifts and the covenant are not the same thing. So why do you keep repeating this straw man?

Well, this is what you asked in #564: "Doesn't the new covenant promise all those things we are talking about?"

It seems you keep equating these things.

I believe what Jesus said

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

So do I.

 

[FreeGrace]

That's exactly what Paul is referring to is covenant.

Neither you nor MT have proven that claim.

But I've shown from Paul's OWN WORDS that "gifts of God" in 11:29 is defined as justification in 3:24, 5:15,16,17 and eternal life in 6:23.

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

I don't see any "gifts" being noted nor defined here.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:16-22

Once again, I do not see any "gifts" being noted nor defined here.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1,6

And I don't see any "gifts" noted nor defined here, either.

Branches that do not produce fruit, are removed and thrown into the fire.JLB

So, prove that Jesus meant loss of salvation here. Or anywhere else, for that matter.

Here's the rub for you. There are many clearly and plainly stated verses about eternal security, and NONE that clearly and plainly state that one's salvation can be lost.

 

[JLB]

Neither you nor MT have proven that claim.

But I've shown from Paul's OWN WORDS that "gifts of God" in 11:29 is defined as justification in 3:24, 5:15,16,17 and eternal life in 6:23.

Neither you nor MT have proven that claim.

But I've shown from Paul's OWN WORDS that "gifts of God" in 11:29 is defined as justification in 3:24, 5:15,16,17 and eternal life in 6:23.


I don't see any "gifts" being noted nor defined here.


Once again, I do not see any "gifts" being noted nor defined here.

And I don't see any "gifts" noted nor defined here, either.


So, prove that Jesus meant loss of salvation here. Or anywhere else, for that matter.

Here's the rub for you. There are many clearly and plainly stated verses about eternal security, and NONE that clearly and plainly state that one's salvation can be lost.

There are no verse's of scripture that teach or prove OSAS.


There are countless warnings by all the Apostles and Jesus that warn of not inheriting the kingdom of God.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:20-21

For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.


Peter warns that it will be better for the unsaved, those who have not known the way of righteousness, than it will be for those who have known it, and escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, and returned to the world and become overcome by it.


JLB

 

[JLB]

But I've shown from Paul's OWN WORDS that "gifts of God" in 11:29 is defined as justification in 3:24, 5:15,16,17 and eternal life in 6:23.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?,22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:16:22-23

The gift of God is relationship in Christ Jesus, as illustrated by a branch in a Vine.

This relationship becomes everlasting life, for those who have fruit unto holiness... and the end everlasting life.

The wages of sin, that is those who choose to present themselves as slaves of sin, is death.

Read what Paul so plainly says... Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness.


To whom YOU present yourself a slave to obey... obedience leading to righteousness, or sin leading to death.

Those who have become a slave of God, and have their fruit unto holiness... everlasting life.

Those who have become a slave to sin... death.


The free gift is eternal life, which means relationship, covenant relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Eternal life is relationship with God; ie; knowing God.

If you take the free gift of God and squander it, like the prodigal son, then you become dead to God.


For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

There are no verse's of scripture that teach or prove OSAS.

lol

Paul told you that eternal life is a gift of God. And justification is a gift as well. Then he told you that God's gifts are irrevocable.

There are countless warnings by all the Apostles and Jesus that warn of not inheriting the kingdom of God.

And I've thoroughly explained what that means. It does NOT mean to not enter the kingdom, as you think. It means to not have an inheritance in the kingdom.

None of the verses you've quoted say anything about loss of salvation. Such an important point would have been clearly stated in Scripture. And there aren't any.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

I'd like to know what your understanding is of this verse. If loss of faith grieves the Holy Spirit, and we know that is true, why did Paul add the last part, that we have been sealed with Him FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION?

Please answer.

If your view were correct, this verse could not have been written as is. Instead, Paul would have had to write this:

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, or you will lose your salvation.

Or,

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, or He will break your seal and you will not see the day of redemption.

Or,

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, or you'll go to hell.

Or something like this.

 

[smaller]

It would seem rather pointless to relegate the role of our Savior to ourselves, instead.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

 

[JLB]

Paul told you that eternal life is a gift of God. And justification is a gift as well. Then he told you that God's gifts are irrevocable.

• A. Irrevocable in the original language does not have the meaning you are trying to ascribe to it, as the modern definition of irrevocable.

The Greek word means ; without regret.

• B. Eternal life does not have the meaning you are trying to ascribe to it. as it means ; relationship.

The bible itself defines what eternal life means;
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Eternal life is relationship with God, through faith in Jesus Christ, which is likened to a Marriage Covenant.

Jesus teaches about this relationship in the prior Chapter, John 15, to illustrate it's true meaning, by showing the relationship between a branch and the Vine from which it receives it's sustaining life.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:1-2

So that deceivers, false teachers who would later try to redefine the message here,
Jesus restates the all important meaning again in verse 6 -

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15;6

Notice here Jesus so plainly and clearly states that a person who is in Him, who then later becomes disconnected from Him, will wither and be cast into the fire and burned.

• C. The context of Romans 11 describe those who were broken off through unbelief, and warns those Christians to whom Paul writes that they themselves might be broken off as well.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:19-22


The fact of the matter is we are in the New Covenant, which is by the blood of Jesus.

For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matthew 26:28


Why in the world would anyone try to deny that we are in Covenant Relationship with Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of sins, through His blood that He shed for us?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

It would seem rather pointless to relegate the role of our Savior to ourselves, instead.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost don't understand the extent of their belief. They neither save themselves, nor can they keep themselves saved. It is by grace all the way. Which is why one's lifestyle has no effect on one's saved state. It does, however, have an enormously negative effect on one's life on earth as well as in eternity.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

Amen!

 

[FreeGrace]

• A. Irrevocable in the original language does not have the meaning you are trying to ascribe to it, as the modern definition of irrevocable.

The Greek word means ; without regret.

So, what qualifies you to claim that the translators chose a very wrong word for the Greek word?

My lexicon, Analytical Greek Lexicon, says this about the word: "not to be repented of; by implication, irrevocable, enduring.

Those who write Greek lexicons are experts in Greek. What are your qualifications to challenge what the lexicons or their writers say?

However, given your claim here, that the word doesn't mean what I claim it means, which is IRREVOCABLE, just what does that word mean in Rom 11:29?

So, what source, other than your own opinion, can you cite to show that the word does not mean

• B. Eternal life does not have the meaning you are trying to ascribe to it. as it means ; relationship.

I just cited a source that refutes your claim about what it means. Please cite your source that says that the word means "relationship".

The bible itself defines what eternal life means;
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Eternal life is relationship with God, through faith in Jesus Christ, which is likened to a Marriage Covenant.

Yes, correct. And this relationship with God, EXACTLY LIKE THE PHYSICAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN BIRTH PARENT AND CHILD, is IRREVOCABLE.

You can no more lose your relationship to God than you can severe the DNA physical relationship with your birth parents.

Maybe we're now getting somewhere.

Jesus teaches about this relationship in the prior Chapter, John 15, to illustrate it's true meaning, by showing the relationship between a branch and the Vine from which it receives it's sustaining life.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:1-2

So that deceivers, false teachers who would later try to redefine the message here,
Jesus restates the all important meaning again in verse 6 -

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15;6

This is not about relationship, but rather FELLOWSHIP, which it seems you just keep rejecting.

How many times did the apostle John use the word fellowship in 1 John 1?

When you were growing up, did you always have perfect fellowship with your parents?

 

[smaller]

Those who believe that salvation can be lost don't understand the extent of their belief. They neither save themselves, nor can they keep themselves saved. It is by grace all the way. Which is why one's lifestyle has no effect on one's saved state. It does, however, have an enormously negative effect on one's life on earth as well as in eternity.

Amen!

As believers we behave ourselves because we don't want to be "slaves" of the contrariness in our own flesh. And that's about the extent of it. That certainly ISN'T salvation. It's just being aware of our built in problems and our needs for Grace and Mercy in Christ, because of same. Some have taken this to the sight of "moral salvation" when no such posture exists. When someone is in blatant external sin, it means it happened to leak out where it becomes obvious. The moral external person keeps their lusts/temptations in check, and nothing more than that.

Paul does not describe we are any better than any other sinner/ubelievers when it comes to the reality of "having sin."

Romans 3:9
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

We keep a 'lid' on it for our own temporal good, knowing that we can be enslaved even more, by not keeping a lid on it. And, then, we are faced with the challenge of not falling in hypocrisy, thinking we're better than some other sinner.

So, yeah, there are challenges aplenty. But none of this equates to "losing salvation."

 

[smaller]

Most of the "works for salvation" camp think they can determine that Jesus left the premises on the basis of sin. That never happened. IF this were so, nobody would be saved because all are sinners, regardless of the paint job.

Then we get the extremely convoluted response that "Jesus never left, but the person left Him" as if that proves Jesus left them? That's about as circular of a form of reasoning there is.

A very very large number of people "left" the catholic form of faith posture, not on the basis of losing our faith, but on the basis that it's just not "right" on many fronts. To some, this means "losing faith." In most postures of the "you can lose it camp" even by not believing you can "lose it" is a loss of faith. Again, very convoluted reasoning.

It may be important to just LISTEN and believe what Jesus said, and leave it at that:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

And see that is is only HIM that can make this happen.

 

[smaller]

And I don't know how many believers are quite needlessly frightened to death by Jesus' Words, here:

Matthew 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The "reason" believers can NOT see or hear what is being said in the above is because they don't know how "we" are put together, and I'll use Paul's own example of himself, from here:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

IF Paul stood before Jesus, as a man still on earth, attached to his "dead" body, it is remotely conceivable to ANYONE that the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh would be addressed BY JESUS, and PAUL, NOT DAMNED AND SENT AWAY?

It would be no different of an exercise of Jesus in that matter than Jesus looking at Peter, and addressing WHO in Peter? Yeah, Satan!

Matthew 16:23
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

This is NOT a difficult sight, as opposed to the LORD LORD fear that most posture upon only believers. NOT when there are other obvious parties involved.

IF we are hearing correctly, we'd DELIGHT to hear Jesus' Words! Even EXPECTING to Hear them!

 

[JLB]

Yes, correct. And this relationship with God, EXACTLY LIKE THE PHYSICAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN BIRTH PARENT AND CHILD, is IRREVOCABLE.

You can no more lose your relationship to God than you can severe the DNA physical relationship with your birth parents.

Maybe we're now getting somewhere

Unfortunately for you and your "doctrine" one only needs to refer to the story of the prodigal son, to see the huge crack in the foundation of your man-made doctrine that is built upon the shifting sand of worldly perception.

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; 24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.
Luke 15:22-24

Likewise Lucifer and the one third of the angels who were cast out of heaven, and the sons of God who were disobedient in the days of Noah are all God's sons and will be cast into the everlasting fires of hell.

They are still God's sons, though they are dead to Him, they do not cease to exist.


JLB