If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[FreeGrace]

As believers we behave ourselves because we don't want to be "slaves" of the contrariness in our own flesh. And that's about the extent of it.

Not hardly. At least not according to Scripture. Faithful believers will be richly rewarded for their faithfulness and obedience. KJV mentions "reward" 79 times, "rewarded" 13 times, and "rewards" 5 times.

Also, 2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

We keep a 'lid' on it for our own temporal good, knowing that we can be enslaved even more, by not keeping a lid on it. And, then, we are faced with the challenge of not falling in hypocrisy, thinking we're better than some other sinner.

So, yeah, there are challenges aplenty. But none of this equates to "losing salvation."

Correct!

Or Scripture would have plainly said so.

 

[FreeGrace]

Unfortunately for you and your "doctrine" one only needs to refer to the story of the prodigal son, to see the huge crack in the foundation of your man-made doctrine that is built upon the shifting sand of worldly perception.

lol. What does the prodigal son have to do with loss of salvation. Did he ever lose his relationship as SON to the FATHER? No. What was lost was fellowship. And then regained.

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; 24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.
Luke 15:22-24

It is apparent that some will just not accept metaphors or figurative language when it clarifies a passage and refutes the ideas of some.

btw, I asked several specific questions, which were not answered.

Here they are again:

"This is not about relationship, but rather FELLOWSHIP, which it seems you just keep rejecting.

How many times did the apostle John use the word fellowship in 1 John 1?

When you were growing up, did you always have perfect fellowship with your parents?"

If you don't answer them, it will be clear that you either:
have no clue about either question, or
there is an unwillingness to answer either question.

Either way will demonstrate the huge cracks in the foundation of your own theory. Or an answer to each question will at least help clarify and defend your own theory.

 

[JLB]

This is not about relationship, but rather FELLOWSHIP, which it seems you just keep rejecting.

More carnal man made reasoning in the face of the plain straightforward words of truth.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

You can play games with God's word all you want, but at the end of the Day these words will not change, though you desperately try to redefine the words of scripture to suit your man made doctrine.

they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Thrown into the fire and burned is what happens to those who are disconnected from Christ.


JLB

 

[JLB]

It is apparent that some will just not accept metaphors or figurative language when it clarifies a passage and refutes the ideas of some.

The context of Luke 15 -

7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

 

[FreeGrace]

More carnal man made reasoning in the face of the plain straightforward words of truth.

This statement directly applies to those who claim that salvation can be lost.

And I would like your answers to my questions, please. From #582.

 

[JLB]

This statement directly applies to those who claim that salvation can be lost.

And I would like your answers to my questions, please. From #582.

Here it is again.

Jesus teaches about this relationship in the prior Chapter, John 15, to illustrate it's true meaning, by showing the relationship between a branch and the Vine from which it receives it's sustaining life.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:1-2

So that deceivers, false teachers who would later try to redefine the message here,
Jesus restates the all important meaning again in verse 6 -

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15;6

Notice here Jesus so plainly and clearly states that a person who is in Him, who then later becomes disconnected from Him, will wither and be cast into the fire and burned.


You would have people believe that thrown into the fire and burned means "removed from ministry service"... LOL!!!

The relationship of the branch that was at one time, connected to the Vine, and then is broken off, removed and disconnected and thrown into the fire and burned, shows us there is no more life sustaining relationship anymore.


That's my answer, again.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Here it is again.

Jesus teaches about this relationship in the prior Chapter, John 15, to illustrate it's true meaning, by showing the relationship between a branch and the Vine from which it receives it's sustaining life.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:1-2

So that deceivers, false teachers who would later try to redefine the message here,
Jesus restates the all important meaning again in verse 6 -

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15;6

Notice here Jesus so plainly and clearly states that a person who is in Him, who then later becomes disconnected from Him, will wither and be cast into the fire and burned.

You would have people believe that thrown into the fire and burned means "removed from ministry service"... LOL!!!

The relationship of the branch that was at one time, connected to the Vine, and then is broken off, removed and disconnected and thrown into the fire and burned, shows us there is no more life sustaining relationship anymore.

That's my answer, again.JLB

btw, I asked several specific questions, which were not answered.

Here they are again:

"This is not about relationship, but rather FELLOWSHIP, which it seems you just keep rejecting.

#1 How many times did the apostle John use the word fellowship in 1 John 1?

#2 When you were growing up, did you always have perfect fellowship with your parents?"

If you don't answer them, it will be clear that you either:
have no clue about either question, or
there is an unwillingness to answer either question.

Either way will demonstrate the huge cracks in the foundation of your own theory. Or an answer to each question will at least help clarify and defend your own theory.

Your response did not answer either question, so it appears either cluelessness or unwillingness, either of which reveals the huge cracks in your theory.

 

[JLB]

btw, I asked several specific questions, which were not answered.

Here they are again:

"This is not about relationship, but rather FELLOWSHIP, which it seems you just keep rejecting.

#1 How many times did the apostle John use the word fellowship in 1 John 1?

#2 When you were growing up, did you always have perfect fellowship with your parents?"

If you don't answer them, it will be clear that you either:
have no clue about either question, or
there is an unwillingness to answer either question.

Either way will demonstrate the huge cracks in the foundation of your own theory. Or an answer to each question will at least help clarify and defend your own theory.

Your response did not answer either question, so it appears either cluelessness or unwillingness, either of which reveals the huge cracks in your theory.

Your question has been answered twice now.

John 15 is about relationship.

A branch is connected to the Vine in relationship.

Your redefining what the words of scripture, to prop up your man made doctrine.

As long as the branch is connected to the Vine, the Vine sustains the branch.

If the branch is disconnected from the Vine, it withers and dies, is gathered up and thrown into the fire and is burned.

These are the facts and can not be refuted, so you are left with two choices.

Choice number 1. - Repent for teaching false doctrine.

Choice number 2. - Redefine what the words say and mean, so that the phrase "thrown into the fire and burned", means something other than "thrown into the fire and burned".

What does "thrown into the fire and burned", mean in John 15:6 ?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Your question has been answered twice now.

The response was not even near an answer.

John 15 is about relationship.

This demonstrates your complete misunderstanding of the difference between relationship and fellowship.

Just as you CANNOT change your birth parents, neither can you change your spiritual Parent. That relationship is PERMANENT, and there are NO verses that teach otherwise.

A branch is connected to the Vine in relationship.

John 15 is a farming metaphor and is about production of fruit, not maintain salvation through production of fruit.

Your redefining what the words of scripture, to prop up your man made doctrine.

Your statement relates directly to your own view.

As long as the branch is connected to the Vine, the Vine sustains the branch.

I have no problem with this.

If the branch is disconnected from the Vine, it withers and dies, is gathered up and thrown into the fire and is burned.

But not eternally, as is being assumed.

These are the facts and can not be refuted, so you are left with two choices.

Choice number 1. - Repent for teaching false doctrine.

Choice number 2. - Redefine what the words say and mean, so that the phrase "thrown into the fire and burned", means something other than "thrown into the fire and burned".

What does "thrown into the fire and burned", mean in John 15:6 ?JLB

I've already answered that question many times. But your ears and eyes are closed to truth, and desperately hold on to the false teaching that one can lose salvation.

One cannot lose their salvation any more than one can change their birth parents.

 

[reba]

a simple reminder from staff to all members...
Just because we do not like , agree , or accept the answers given it does necessarily follow that the question was not answered..
We loose much in forums... Not seeing the others facial expressions their eyes etc... Often the questions we think we have asked are not what the other persons read... We each have a mind set ... We do not see into the others persons thoughts their ideals..
Lets not go to the back and forth battle of yes, no, yes, no,...
A direct question say of Have you read John 3:16 can receive a direct simple response of yes or no.
asking one to say what they think it says can bring many different answers..

 

[smaller]

Not hardly. At least not according to Scripture. Faithful believers will be richly rewarded for their faithfulness and obedience. KJV mentions "reward" 79 times, "rewarded" 13 times, and "rewards" 5 times.

Also, 2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

And just exactly WHO in "faith" doesn't have things to be pruned and burned?

NONE of us. We ALL go through very certain prunings.

This again, does not equate to eternal damnation.

I have personally hung out with sects who lean to believers being either outright or potentially eternally damned. It's a pathetic group of hypocrites who themselves are being hardened into damnation of other believers in prep for personal PRUNING by The Divine Clippers.

1 Thessalonians 4:9
But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

I will maintain that loving another believer is impossible when dangling them over eternal damnation. There is a very certain "internal power monger" that takes hold of such sights and can ruin a person within. They often get harder and harder as they grow older, and become impossible to even fellowship with. They couldn't love another believer if their life depended on it.

 

[smaller]

Scripturally speaking, when we are saved, we have already been seated in "heavenly places" with Christ.

Ephesians 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

In faith, we are already "joined" to this Body, this City, and God in Christ

Hebrews 12:22
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

What does Jesus say about this?:

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Eph. 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We do not sit in Heavenly Places, boasting. There is no such thing as "personal pride" in Heavenly Places. It has no place, and is not required.

 

[mutzrein]

.
I believe it is as just as fallacious to believe that one can choose to be born of the Spirit of God, as it is to believe that one can choose to be born of the flesh.

 

[Sinthesis]

One doesn't choose to be born of the Spirit of God, instead one chooses to die to their old life in the faith that God will resurrect them in His Spirit. A subtle but important difference.

 

[mutzrein]

One doesn't choose to be born of the Spirit of God, instead one chooses to die to their old life in the faith that God will resurrect them in His Spirit. A subtle but important difference.

Too subtle for me I'm afraid. I'm just wondering how a dead person can die to the state of death which binds them.

 

[Sinthesis]

Too subtle for me I'm afraid. I'm just wondering how a dead person can die to the state of death which binds them.

Binds them how?

 

[WIP]

Friendly reminder. This is the A&T forum so please present the Scripture that defines your differing viewpoints. Thanks.

 

[mutzrein]

Binds them how?

Romans 5:12 speaks of sin entering the world through one man, Adam, and death through sin came to all. In effect therefore all of mankind is bound in this state of ‘death’ and if it were not for Christ who came that man might have life, no amount of good works, human effort or attempts to live a ‘sinless’ life, without first being transformed from death to life, could achieve anything.

 

[Jim Parker]

More carnal man made reasoning in the face of the plain straightforward words of truth.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Well said.

You can play games with God's word all you want, but at the end of the Day these words will not change, though you desperately try to redefine the words of scripture to suit your man made doctrine.

Unnecessarily said.

There is no reason to assume anyone is "playing games with scripture" or desperately trying to redefine the words of scripture. Just because people don't agree with you it doesn't mean their intentions are evil. Anyone can be in error without evil intent and there are many winds of doctrine being taught to innocent believers in churches, on the radio, and on TV. Don't blame the student for having been taught error.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Thrown into the fire and burned is what happens to those who are disconnected from Christ.

That's exactly what it says.

John 15:6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."

iakov the fool

 

[Eugene]

.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Who are the “Men” doing the casting? It isn’t Jesus!
Heb 13:5 . . . for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Rom 8:39 (What) shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(This is God’s love for us.)