If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[FreeGrace]

.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Who are the “Men” doing the casting? It isn’t Jesus!

Excellent observation! Jesus was giving an agricultural metaphor about discarding unfruitful branches, just as a farmer would. The metaphor is about God not using unproductive believers. To be discarded means to be ignored. There is no sense of eternal fire here. It's just a farming metaphor. Some would like it to mean much more than it really is.

Heb 13:5 . . . for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Rom 8:39 (What) shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(This is God’s love for us.)

And the most powerful of all, imho, is that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

And, the verses about all believers being sealed with the Holy Spirit.
Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5

 

[Jim Parker]

.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Who are the “Men” doing the casting? It isn’t Jesus!

Jhn 15:1-2 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

God does the cutting off of branches that do not bear fruit.
I suspect that angels will do the casting.

iakov the fool

 

[Eugene]

Jhn 15:1-2 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

God does the cutting off of branches that do not bear fruit.
I suspect that angels will do the casting.

iakov the fool

Dear Brother Jim Parker, I have pasted the following excerpt from a study of John I have from http://www.gracegod.com that states:

“Jesus says that He is the True Vine, which statement implies that there is another vine that is not of this character, which is a fact. Israel was called the Lord's Vineyard Isa. 5. God brought them out of Egypt and planted them in the fruitful hill of Zion.”

 

[Jim Parker]

Dear Brother Jim Parker, I have pasted the following excerpt from a study of John I have from http://www.gracegod.com that states:

“Jesus says that He is the True Vine, which statement implies that there is another vine that is not of this character, which is a fact. Israel was called the Lord's Vineyard Isa. 5. God brought them out of Egypt and planted them in the fruitful hill of Zion.”

O kaaay..... and what am I to understand from that?

How about:........

The vine (looks like a stump to the average Joe) is the source of life for the branches on which the fruit grows. To have eternal life we must abide (remain intimately attached to) the True Vine in whom alone is Life.

Any other vine ( politics, country, family) may provide for physical life, but only Christ can give eternal life.

iakov the fool

 

[Eugene]

In your opinion is the life Jesus gives eternal or conditional?

 

[Jim Parker]

In your opinion is the life Jesus gives eternal or conditional?

HAH! That's a Calvinist's loaded question.

It's not an "either/or" scenario. It's both. Eternal life is both eternal and conditional. The life which Jesus gives is eternal. Our having that life is conditional upon our continuing in the faith. (which includes faithfulness)

Rom 11:20-22 Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,fn if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

The life Jesus gives is eternal.

But that doesn't mean we can't decide to toss it and go our own way. That's why there are so many "IFs" in the scripture.

Calvinists regularly confuse the word "eternal" with "non-returnable." They are not the same but that confusion is why you can ask such a question as "is the life Jesus gives eternal or conditional?".

And. no, I don't care to play "battling proof texts" with you. It's like the "tick-tack-toe" game that Matthew Broderick played against the computer in the movie "War Games." Nobody can win. In a forum it goes on until someone gets irritated enough to say something naughty and get excommunicated for unsportsmanlike conduct.

Mazel tov!

iakov the fool

 

[turnorburn]

HAH! That's a Calvinist's loaded question.

It's not an "either/or" scenario. It's both. Eternal life is both eternal and conditional. The life which Jesus gives is eternal. Our having that life is conditional upon our continuing in the faith. (which includes faithfulness)

Rom 11:20-22 Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,fn if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

The life Jesus gives is eternal.

But that doesn't mean we can't decide to toss it and go our own way. That's why there are so many "IFs" in the scripture.

Calvinists regularly confuse the word "eternal" with "non-returnable." They are not the same but that confusion is why you can ask such a question as "is the life Jesus gives eternal or conditional?".

And. no, I don't care to play "battling proof texts" with you. It's like the "tick-tack-toe" game that Matthew Broderick played against the computer in the movie "War Games." Nobody can win. In a forum it goes on until someone gets irritated enough to say something naughty and get excommunicated for unsportsmanlike conduct.

Mazel tov!

iakov the fool

And what is it you do to maintain your eternal life?

 

[Jim Parker]

And what is it you do to maintain your eternal life?

Rom 2:6-10 (God) “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

 

[turnorburn]

Rom 2:6-10 (God) “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

No i know that we all do, but what do you do to maintain eternal life?

 

[Jim Parker]

No i know that we all do, but what do you do to maintain eternal life?

by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

 

[turnorburn]

by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

everyone i know that knows Jesus does that, i thought you had a formula of some kind is all.

 

[Eugene]

Peace to everyone who works what is good

How do you do that? I've sure tried at times, but have found God keeping me instead.
Just what is the work of God? (Joh 6:29)? But regardless brother, we'll know who didn't qualify when we get there huh? I've seen Christians curse, not obey the entire law (That ministration of death), and not always love their brethren as Jesus does. I've actually seen Christians break the laws of the land God gave us to obey and break the speed limits; oh the humanity huh? (Rom 13:5).

 

[Jim Parker]

everyone i know that knows Jesus does that, i thought you had a formula of some kind is all.

Nope. No formula. Just what scripture says.

iakov the fool

 

[FreeGrace]

HAH! That's a Calvinist's loaded question.

It's not an "either/or" scenario. It's both. Eternal life is both eternal and conditional. The life which Jesus gives is eternal. Our having that life is conditional upon our continuing in the faith. (which includes faithfulness)

So, what is it conditioned upon? Scripture please.

But that doesn't mean we can't decide to toss it and go our own way.

I've never read any verses that even suggest that one is able to "throw away" their eternal life. Scripture please.

That's why there are so many "IFs" in the scripture.

Could you provide at least one of the "if" verses about being able to throw away eternal life?

Calvinists regularly confuse the word "eternal" with "non-returnable." They are not the same but that confusion is why you can ask such a question as "is the life Jesus gives eternal or conditional?".

Please don't confuse me with Calvinists, but Paul wrote that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23), along with justification being a gift (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17), and then he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable. Same as "non-returnable".

btw, eternal life comes from God. It's His life (Jn 17:3). Only He can give it, and only He can take it away.

We don't have the power or ability to get it on our own, nor throw it away.

Or the Bible would have made that quite clear. Why would such an important subject be left to vagueness?

 

[FreeGrace]

by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

Paul actually noted that no one can do this. See Rom 3:9 and 23.

In Rom 2:13 he wrote this: For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Then he wrote this: 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Was he being contradictory here? No. He was making the point that no one can live a life that will result in obtaining eternal life. We can't earn it, iow. That's his point. That's why the rest of ch 3 and all of ch 4 is about belief in Christ for being justified. Not by being good. We can't be good enough.

 

[Jim Parker]

so, what is it conditioned upon?

I just said: Our having that life is conditional upon our continuing in the faith. (which includes faithfulness)

Scripture please.

COL1:21-23; HEB 3:14, 2PE 1:5-10, EZE 18:24

I've never read any verses that even suggest that one is able to "throw away" their eternal life. Scripture please.

See above.

Could you provide at least one of the "if" verses about being able to throw away eternal life?

See above.

Please don't confuse me with Calvinists

Thanks for the clarification.

God's gifts are irrevocable

Paul was referring specifically to the calling of Israel but it is appropriate to apply it to the gift of eternal life.

However, the fact that God will not "take back" His gift does not mean that we cannot toss it aside and choose not to "walk in it."

Upon being given a gift, it is within the power of the receiver to cherish or discard it.

The reason I though you might be Calvinist is the "I" in TULIP; "Irresistible Grace." That refers to the idea that man is not capable of rejecting God's gift.

btw, eternal life comes from God. It's His life (Jn 17:3). Only He can give it, and only He can take it away.

I believe that is correct.

Then he wrote this: 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Was he being contradictory here? No. He was making the point that no one can live a life that will result in obtaining eternal life. We can't earn it, iow. That's his point. That's why the rest of ch 3 and all of ch 4 is about belief in Christ for being justified. Not by being good. We can't be good enough.

I believe you have it. There is no contradiction.

We cannot be good enough to be justified by our good works. But, as I understand it, God will not give eternal life to someone who believes but neglects to do the works "...which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10 - The "ghost verse." Everyone wants to stop at 2:9 and then skip 10.) From what James says I gather that faith without Works will not save anyone.

iakov the fool

 

[turnorburn]

Jim said: "From what James says I gather that faith without Works will not save anyone."

Then your saying its not a gift, its conditional, but the Word of God says..

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim said: "From what James says I gather that faith without Works will not save anyone."

Then your saying its not a gift, its conditional, but the Word of God says..

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

No.

Being a gift and being conditional are not mutually exclusive.

I saying that God can give someone the gift and they have the ability to discard it. Discarding the gift does not cause the gift to cease being a gift.

 

[turnorburn]

When God seals something can man unseal it?

 

[mutzrein]

When God's Spirit gives birth to man's spirit, man becomes a son of God. Is there anything that can change that relationship?