Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?
- Thread starter llama
- Start date
Cygnus
Member
Smaller, What do you mean by "That is WHY the wicked one CAN NOT TOUCH US."?
The wicked one can't inhabit the christian?
The wicked one can't oppress the christian?
The wicked one can't prosecute the christian before God?
The wicked one can't harm the christian if they are wearing the full armor?
....I can go several ways on the thought "can not touch us"
smaller
Member
The mystery of iniquity is a snaky subject to handle.
Even though we have sinful flesh, we are to understand that the flesh IS and always will be CONTRARY to the Spirit.
There is not a person among us who does NOT have sinful flesh, or evil present with us, just as Paul had, openly exposed.
The same Apostle, Paul, said, SIN NOT. 1 Cor. 15:34
Yet he claimed simultaneously "sinners, of whom I am CHIEF" after salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15
We walk in the ways of DIVISION from our own flesh.
This will always be an unsolvable paradox for those in the FLESH. God IS both FOR and AGAINST us.
He is FOR us, in the Spirit. And against us, in the FLESH.
smaller
Member
Baloney. In Paul's own flesh there was a messenger of Satan. 2 Cor. 12:7
Any believer who is HONEST will know that the tempter tempts us INTERNALLY. This places the tempter IN the flesh to DO SO.
When we stand before God in Christ, we stand as a believer. YET, we do bear temptations within us of the tempter.
We are to understand the difference between ourselves and our ADVERSARY.
Jim Parker
Member
I blame Gutenberg.
It is NOT absurd. Jesus was clear. Those who believe HAVE (present tense) eternal life. Do you disagree? And they have PASSED (aorist - past tense) FROM DEATH TO LIFE, and WILL NOT COME (future tense) into condemnation.
You asked for parsing of 2 Greek words.
For "pisteuwn", it is a nom. sing. masc. present participle.
Oh, I see. You think the present part means they have to keep on believing in order to keep on having eternal life.
We KNOW that isn't a fact, since Jesus Himself used the present participle in Luke 8:13 and immediately after the word added "for a while". So it does NOT demand ongoing action til the end of time.
And Jesus used the aorist tense in the previous verse in the phrase "lest they believe and be saved".
And Paul used the aorist tense in Acts 16:31 in his answer to the jailer. As well, in Rom 10:10, he used the aorist tense.
So you're making much more of the present tense than is warranted, given all the verses that have the aorist tense for believe and be saved.
If one HAD to continue to believe in order to continue to be saved, then neither Jesus nor Paul would have EVER used the aorist tense in the verses they did.
For "exei" (my interlinear didn't spell it the way you did), it is a 3rd person, sing. pres. indicative.
Sure, because they believe, they HAVE eternal life.
However, all this about present and aorist tenses is not all that important. It's all that Jesus said that is so important.
And in John 10:28, we know that to those He has given eternal life, they WILL NEVER PERISH.
That is a promise. When one believes, they HAVE eternal life. So they will NEVER PERISH.
How can the possession of "eternal life" experience the "secon death"? They are mutually exclusive.
So, one must prove that the person who possesses eternal life CAN get rid of it, give it away, lose it, etc.
So, where are any verses that indicate that this can be done?
I submit that there aren't any.
What is absurd is to think that once a son doesn't mean always a son. Now, that is absurd. The prodigal son parable should have put that rumor to rest.He doesn't care how absurd his position is.
I care that those who come here seeking the truth, will see how absurd his position is, like you have.
JLB
So, once a son, always a son. prodigal son - Luke 15
Once born again, always born again. Jn 1:12
Once saved, always saved. John 5:24, 10:28
Once possessing eternal life, always possessing eternal life. Rom 6:23, Rom 11:29
Once forgiven, always forgiven. Acts 10:43
Your side has failed to refute any of these statements. Lots of disagreement, but no substance.
Too bad for your "doctrine" that you have admitted that believer's can in fact stop believeing.
And, that once a believer no longer believes, then by default, and your admission, he is no longer a believer.
So we are all waiting for you to show us the scriptures that say... "un-believers" are afforded the same eternal life life as believers.
as to your comment about once a son, always a son...
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-5
Peter hard-links these angels to the days of Noah, in which it is these sons of God, sinned in the days of Noah, and were cast down to hell.
Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.3 And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:1-4
Jesus calls angels sons of God, as well.
34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36
A believer who no longer believes, has become an un-believer.
JLB
smaller,
You've missed what causes a person to be able to experience eternal life where they will never perish and nobody shall pluck them out of God's hand.
Try a correct exegesis of John 5:24 (ESV). Please tell us what this verse means.
Oz
smaller,
I'm talking about somebody with a fixation on OSAS, based on John 5:24 (ESV) and John 10:28 (ESV) and that person has not correctly exegeted John 5:24 (SBL Greek text). Reading it from the English text does not correctly communicate the meaning of John 5:24 (ESV) from the Greek.
Here is John 5:24 in the Mounce transliterated Interlinear translation. When we understand the meaning of the root verbs, pisteuō and echō, we will be able to understand how these 2 verbs relate to perseverance of the saints (in my view, a better phrase than OSAS).
Oz
Your first sentence does not make sense to me. Please explain what you are trying to communicate. I don't understand what you mean by, 'if it is possible to lose your salvation...you already have'. In the English language, if it is possible for me to lose my USB stick, it does not mean I already have lost it. It only means that it's a possibility, not an actuality.
Making an assertion that 'I know OSAS to be the truth' is your assertion. Until you provide the biblical exegesis to support your claim, I have to accept it as your personal point of view and not taught by the biblical text.
Please give a brief biblical exegesis that leads to your conclusion of the 'truth' of OSAS.
Oz
Last edited:
Cygnus
Member
if it is possible to lose your salvation...you already have'.
What it means is that you can't be good enough, do enough, follow enough, whatever enough to maintain your salvation. You've blown it already.
Gods grace and mercy are a free gift. You deny that and say it is conditional on how well you perform in your christian life.
In biblical reality (your required exegesis) God gives grace and mercy to some...places them into the Father and Jesus' hands....where no one will snatch them out of His hand. Eternal life is given to them, and they will never perish. That is what the bible says. You can click on the link provided to read the verse for yourself if you so desire.
If no one can snatch you out of Jesus' hand...then how can you lose your salvation?
smaller
Member
Describing reading the scriptures and accepting what they say as a fixation is a slur. So move on with that angle. Believers are led internally to read or to reach out to Christ by The Word of God, by Christ. In belief they are vivified by the Spirit of God in Christ entering INTO them, and they thusly believe and are given, as a gift, permanent eternal life that can NOT be taken from them, nor can they be lost, nor can they ever die, because the ETERNAL LIFE they have IS CHRIST in them. This LIFE Is Christ Himself. It is ridiculous to claim that Christ can be lost or, as most who can not see or believe this see, Christ rotates constantly in and out of a believer/unbeliever like a fickle little girl. That ain't how faith works. The faith we contain is HIS Faith.
Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
When any believer seeks to eternally torture believers, they are essentially bringing WRATH into themselves by doing so, which is also GOD working adversely with the sin that dwells in them, and the evil present with them, which is in fact demonic. 1 John 3:8. God IS provoking the ADVERSARY in their own hearts. Arousing that working.
Last edited:
smaller
Member
Oh, you mean it can't be read as stated and must be instead run through a "sect filter?" Is that what you mean? Matt. 15:9
You no longer believe... your cut off because of unbelief.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:5-6
People who are "in Him", end up thrown into the fire and are burned...
These like the example in Romans 11, did not remain connected to Him in relationship, as a branch is connected to the vine, and draws life from the vine.
Because of unbelief they were became "disconnected" from Him.
Eternal life is relationship with God... And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3
The way we become connected to God in relationship, which the bible refers to as reconciled, is by believing.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23
...if indeed you continue in the faith...and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel.
Do you know what the hope of the Gospel is?
In these examples, no one was snatched away from God, but rather these folks did not continue to believe... they did not continue in the faith.
These fell away, or even walked away from God.
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Hebrews 3:12-14
JLB
Your link to 'places them into the Father and Jesus' hands' (John 10:28)
is dependent on the correct exegesis of John 5:24 (ESV). Please provide the exegesis of that verse so that we get an accurate understanding of the meaning of John 10:28 (ESV).
Oz
Other passages indicate they can fall away from the faith or have faith shipwrecked. I'm thinking of passages such as Hebrews 6:4-6 (ESV) and 1 Tim 1:19 (ESV). In the case of Heb 6:4-6 (ESV), for those who fall away, 'It is impossible ... to restore them again to repentance'.
John 5:24 (ESV) and John 10:28 (ESV) cannot be taken in isolation from these verses in Heb 6 and 1 Tim 1.
Oz
Do you know what a red herring logical fallacy is? It is when you do not answer what I wrote but insert the agenda you want to speak about. That's what you did here. What was my comment to which you replied?
Your reply did not address any point I raised. We cannot have a reasonable discussion when you use a logical fallacy.
Please quit doing this and address the issues I raise.
Oz
That is a flaming comment. This is what I asked: 'Try a correct exegesis of John 5:24 (ESV). Please tell us what this verse means'.
I'm waiting for you to exegete John 5:24 and tell me the meaning.
Oz