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If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

Who thinks asking for a gift, when is received worked for it, and earned it?

  • Worked for it, and earned it!

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • Didn't work for it, and didn't earn it!

    Votes: 11 91.7%

  • Total voters
    12
How does this help your view? Punishment by physical death doesn't severe the PERMANENT RELATIONSHIP between birth parent and child. And God still uses physical death for rebellious believers today.

1 Cor 11:30 - For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep (euphemism for physical death).

The point of the parallelism between physical birth parent to child and spiritual Father to child is that both relationships are permanent.

Consider these verses:

All references are from the NASB:

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost have quite clearly rejected these 15 verses which teach that salvation cannot be lost.

I have explained all these verses. And they definitely refer to eternal security.

Your challenge is to prove that they don't teach eternal security. So, if you can, please address verse or passage and explain what exactly they do teach, since you reject that they teach eternal security.

They DO teach something. So, what do they teach, if not eternal security?

There are zero verses that teach eternal security to un-believers.

Those who believe "for a while" have returned to being unbelievers, since they no longer believe.

OSAS is simply put Heresy, and is a man made doctrine that had no biblical support.

It has become obvious to me [don't know that it is obvious to all] that you yourself don't even believe what you claim since you can't answer a simple question.

If a believer no longer believes, is he still a believer.


By definition, a believer is someone who "believes".

If that person no longer believes, the have returned to being an unbeliever.
 
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"...those only recover health to whom the Lord is pleased to put forth his healing hand. The others whom, in just judgment, he passes over, pine and rot away till they are consumed." Works of James Arminius, vol 1 (online)
I'm perplexed at the way some persevere and some don't, but I just have to trust that God's judgment is just and that he knows more than I can ever know about any one particular person and situation. And so in holy fear I am grateful that I am among those whom the Lord has 'put forth his healing hand', sustaining me in my faith.

"...they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear..." (Romans 11:20 NASB)


.
 
I wonder who the one person is who voted 'Worked for it, and earned it!'.

It certainly wasn't me.

I'm with you on the fear and trembling....

I thank God everyday and all throughout the day for His mercy and grace toward such a person as me.

Once a person sees that OSAS is totally unbiblical, there eyes are opened to the truth of just how amazing grace truly is, and how utterly lost we are without it.

He gives grace to the humble.


JLB
 
There are zero verses that teach eternal security to un-believers.

Those who believe "for a while" have returned to being unbelievers, since they no longer believe.

OSAS is simply put Heresy, and is a man made doctrine that had no biblical support.

It has become obvious to me [don't know that it is obvious to all] that you yourself don't even believe what you claim since you can't answer a simple question.

If a believer no longer believes, is he still a believer.


By definition, a believer is someone who "believes".

If that person no longer believes, the have returned to being an unbeliever.
What is a believer?

Someone who has made a non-meritorious decision to believe upon the person and the work of the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation. The moment they believe and trust Christ for their salvation(Acts 16:31), they are in union with Christ and imputed with the very righteousness of God(2 Cor 5:21) and receive eternal life and never perish.(John 10:28)
Many believers have become unbelievers in the simple Gospel message that saved them. Are they still saved? Even if they get caught up in religion and have become unbelievers in the Gospel message?

Yes.

But if they never had THE faith,their faith won't save them. We can search the scriptures and follow rituals and ways of life till we are blue in the face and never find the PERSON of the scriptures.

John 5:39~~New American Standard Bible
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
 
There are zero verses that teach eternal security to un-believers.

Those who believe "for a while" have returned to being unbelievers, since they no longer believe.

OSAS is simply put Heresy, and is a man made doctrine that had no biblical support.

It has become obvious to me [don't know that it is obvious to all] that you yourself don't even believe what you claim since you can't answer a simple question.

If a believer no longer believes, is he still a believer.

By definition, a believer is someone who "believes".

If that person no longer believes, the have returned to being an unbeliever.

JLB,

Most people I know who believe in OSAS consider that those who fall away from the faith were not saved in the first place.

I find the better term is that used by both Arminius and Calvin, perseverance of the saints. Simply put, the saints are those who persevere in their faith/salvation until the end of life.

Oz
 
That's what both John Calvin and Jacob Arminius taught in their doctrine of perseverance of the saints.
This is what Arminius taught. This is straight from the Works of James Arminius, vol 1 (online):
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, 2.5.3, wrote:
Sincerely,
Oz

Right there in black and white. How about that? :wink

To him who has eyes to see, of course.

jim
 
Right there in black and white. How about that? :wink

To him who has eyes to see, of course.

jim

It is beneficial to obtain our information straight from the sources and identify them carefully. Especially with the older sources that are now online, this is easier if we have the energy and interest to locate them. Dr Google helps with identifying where Arminius and Calvin taught on perseverance of the saints.

Let's see if I can did up a quote from John Wesley (Arminian) and C H Spurgeon (Calvinist) on perseverance of the saints.

Oz
 
It is beneficial to obtain our information straight from the sources and identify them carefully. Especially with the older sources that are now online, this is easier if we have the energy and interest to locate them. Dr Google helps with identifying where Arminius and Calvin taught on perseverance of the saints.

Let's see if I can did up a quote from John Wesley (Arminian) and C H Spurgeon (Calvinist) on perseverance of the saints.

Oz
That should be interesting.

jim
 
There are zero verses that teach eternal security to un-believers.

That may have been what you were taught. That's not what Paul taught. Romans 11:25-32 clearly shows enemies of the Gospel, aka UNbelieving Israel, ALL saved on the account of others, for the sake of their fathers. For the uninitiated that would be Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

So your statement is provably false.
 
That should be interesting.

jim

Jim,

It didn't take long for me to locate Wesley's and Spurgeon's views with Google as my guide.

With regard to final perseverance, John Wesley believed:
'That there is a state attainable in this life, from which a man cannot finally fall.

That he has attained this who is, “a new creature;” according to Apostle Paul’s account, that is, who can say; “Old things are passed away; all things” in me “are become new.”

And I do not deny, that those which are eminently styled “the elect,” will infallibly persevere to the end' (The "Works of John Wesley", vol 7, p. 481, available online as 'Of Heaven and Hell').

Using Philippians 1:6 (KJV) as his text, C H Spurgeon's first paragraph of his sermon explained where he was going with this sermon: 'If we are helped to set forth the doctrine of the final perseverance of the saints, so as to commend this truth of God to your understandings,and confirm it upon your souls, we shall be glad at hear t, because the truth will make you glad, and strong, and thankful' (Spurgeon, 'Perseverance of the Saints').

Those interested in further details of Wesley's and Spurgeon's views, can read further in their sermons or writings, with the links provided.

Oz
 
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Which changes exactly nothing of what Jethro Bodine correctly said.
If you don't hold fast yuo don't stay saved.
Yes, he said it but the Bible does teach it. Jesus said in Jn 5:24 that when one believes, they HAVE eternal life. Then.

And He also said in Jn 10:28 that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. I don't see how anyone can get around that.

Eternal life is given WHEN one believes, and Jesus said that those who believe will never perish.

And He gave no conditions, exceptions, or caveats. Such as ceasing to believe.
 
What part, you ask? The part you add that says unbelievers have eternal life and will never perish.
Please don't put words in my mouth that I've NEVER said.

[Edited. WIP] In Jn 5:24 He said that those who believe HAVE eternal life, which means when they believe. There are no verses that teach that eternal life is given any length of time after one believes. So unless someone can prove from Scripture that eternal life isn't given at the moment one believes, Jn 5:24 proves that it is given WHEN one believes. Agree or disagree?

Then, Jesus said in Jn 10:28 that those to whom He gives eternal life (which is WHEN they believe) will never perish.

I take that straight forward. He is clearly promising that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish. That is eternal security.

If salvation can be lost, then what Jesus said cannot be true. Simple as that.

Paul and John both say you have to hold fast and continue in that which you heard from the beginning in order to have eternal life and be saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB, 1 John 2:24 NASB). But you say we do not need to hold fast and continue in what we heard from the beginning in order to be saved.
Once again, I NEVER said that. I explained from a Greek lexicon what "hold fasts" means. It means to possess.

So, per Jesus in Jn 5:24, one HAS eternal life WHEN one believes. iow, when one believes have possess it. And then Jesus said in Jn 10:28 that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

I don't see how anyone can get around this.

Even Peter tells us that it is through our faith that we have the power of God that keeps us for the day of salvation:
Absolutely! It is God who keeps us for the day of salvation. Or as Paul said it in Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5, we are sealed for the day of redemption.

No faith means no power of God for being kept unto the salvation that will be revealed.
No, it means the power comes from God. Why would anything think that we have the power to keep us saved? That surely doesn't come from Scripture.

But you say we do not need faith to have the power of God to be kept for the coming day of salvation.
Because of what Jesus said in Jn 10:28. Those to whom He has given eternal life (which is given WHEN one believes, and therefore possesses eternal life) WILL NEVER PERISH.

How do you get around that promise?

You say we can stop believing and we'll still be kept by the power of God for the day of salvation.
Because Jesus promises that those to whom He gives eternal life (when they believe) WILL NEVER PERISH.

Notice he is talking to born again people ('begotten' vs.3), not people who never believed. He's telling believers, not unbelievers, that it is through their continuing faith that they are kept by God to receive the coming eternal inheritance.
No, he is not saying that. If that was what he was saying, then he is in conflict with what Jesus said.
 
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There are zero verses that teach eternal security to un-believers.
I will believe what Jesus said about eternal security. He said that one HAS eternal life when one believes in Jn 5:24. There is no wriggle room here for any other view.

Then, in Jn 10:28, He said that those to whom He gives eternal life (when they believe) WILL NEVER PERISH.

Your view has those who have been given eternal life ending up in the second death, or lake of fire. How is that possible given what Jesus said? I would love to see an answer from you on this.

Since eternal life and the second death are obviously mutually exclusive, the ONLY way one who has eternal life can end up in the second death is if that one loses eternal life.

If that were possible, it cannot be from God, since Paul taught that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

So that leaves ONLY one way to lose it. One must by themselves lose it since God will not revoke it.

So, where would one read in Scripture that we can lose eternal life all by our lonesomes? Nowhere.

Those who believe "for a while" have returned to being unbelievers, since they no longer believe.
You are free to call them whatever you wish. But it changes nothing. If one has been given eternal life, then Jesus said that they WILL NEVER PERISH. Twice. In Jn 3:16 and 10:28.

OSAS is simply put Heresy, and is a man made doctrine that had no biblical support.
It's been proven over and over.

It has become obvious to me [don't know that it is obvious to all] that you yourself don't even believe what you claim since you can't answer a simple question.
This is just a very deceptive comment. I've answered your question but you aren't satisfied with the answer.

If a believer no longer believes, is he still a believer.
No, he still possesses eternal life. Therefore, he's still saved.
 
Yes, he said it but the Bible does teach it. Jesus said in Jn 5:24 that when one believes, they HAVE eternal life. Then.

FreeGrace,

To obtain the meaning of John 5:24, you need to parse correctly the verbs, pisteuwn and echei. Please give us the parsing of these 2 verbs and then we'll understand what this verse means.

Oz
 
Please don't put words in my mouth that I've NEVER said.

My view is exactly what Jesus taught. In Jn 5:24 He said that those who believe HAVE eternal life, which means when they believe.

That is NOT what this verse teaches when you know how to parse the 2 verbs, pisteuwn and echei. You are using an English translation, which does not convey the exact meaning of John 5:24 (ESV).

Oz
 
I will believe what Jesus said about eternal security. He said that one HAS eternal life when one believes in Jn 5:24. There is no wriggle room here for any other view.

Then, in Jn 10:28, He said that those to whom He gives eternal life (when they believe) WILL NEVER PERISH.

The condition for John 10:28 to happen is based on the correct exegesis of the meaning of John 5:24. So far, you have not given this meaning to us.

Oz
 
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FreeGrace,

Jethro asked of you: 'If a believer no longer believes, is he still a believer'?

Your response here is: 'He still possesses eternal life. Therefore, he's still saved'. Do you understand the absurdity of this position. Your claim is that somebody who is no longer a believer in Jesus still posseses eternal life and is still saved.

This is based on your false exegesis of verses like John 5:24.

Oz
 
That may have been what you were taught. That's not what Paul taught. Romans 11:25-32 clearly shows enemies of the Gospel, aka UNbelieving Israel, ALL saved on the account of others, for the sake of their fathers. For the uninitiated that would be Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

So your statement is provably false.

22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:22-23


The only way a person who has been "broken off", because of unbelief, is return to believing, and God will graft them back in.

That's means:
  1. They have to be alive.
  2. They must not continue in unbelief. ie - they must believe.

Those who have died in unbelief, will be judged as unbelievers.

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, Hebrews 9:27


He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges himthe word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. John 12:48



JLB
 
Do you understand the absurdity of this position.

He doesn't care how absurd his position is.

I care that those who come here seeking the truth, will see how absurd his position is, like you have.

:salute

JLB
 
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