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If man has an immortal soul

Hi Bubba,
I believed that Jesus is the son of God, is God (John 1:1, he died, rose again and promised to all those who believed in him, even though they die physically (to keep this in line with the thread!), will have eternal life. I believe in the resurrection and through Jesus' death on the Cross has paid for all my sins, even though I don't deserve it (That's grace!). I believe that when Jesus will come back, the dead will be raised. At judgement, those who are saved will inherit 'eternal shalom' and those who are lost whose names are not written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. There will be gnashing of teeth when people realise it is too late, and the effects of the judgement will be eternal. I don't believe that its God's style to torture people for ever, but rather after a time are anihilated. (different to the other anihilationist view).. Thats the basis for another thread!
 
Mike,
We would be in agreement in respect to a limited duration of torment then annihilation. Do you believe in imputed righteousness (Christ alone)? I notice you wrote a lot about obedience, to the point, that it might be works righteousness you adhere to.
Do you honestly believe that there is no possibility that the invisible part of man can be separated from the body, in spite of all the passages that at least on the surface show individuals with God even now. Or am I misunderstanding your position?
Bubba
 
Bubba said:
Mike,
We would be in agreement in respect to a limited duration of torment then annihilation. Do you believe in imputed righteousness (Christ alone)? I notice you wrote a lot about obedience, to the point, that it might be works righteousness you adhere to.
Do you honestly believe that there is no possibility that the invisible part of man can be separated from the body, in spite of all the passages that at least on the surface show individuals with God even now. Or am I misunderstanding your position?
Bubba
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Hi Bubba,
I wrote nothing about obedience, I believe in the simple faith in Jesus as my Lord and Saviour and his death on the cross alone. I don't believe salvation can be "earned", its a free gift from God. What we do with our lives (parable of the talents) comes out of our relationship with God, nothing else! I think with this obedience thing, you are confusing me with someone else.
Coming back to your 2nd paragraph, it is the spirit of man that does not die; if you like the 'invisible part". Read Ecclesiates 12:7 and that is what happens at death. If you look at what happened with the witch of Endor, it was Samual's spirit that was brought back (No 'nephesh'), but all this 'what part' talk dilutes the wholistic concept of personhood. We will have to ask God how he did (does) it!
In a nutshell, the spirit returns to God who gave it. The soul is simply the 'life force' that dies with the death of the body. We do not have a dual nature! There is no essential part of man; we are a totality. You do not have a soul, you are a soul. You do not have a body, you are a body...etc. Personhood is not what you have, its what you are.
 
CP_Mike said:
Read Ecclesiates 12:7 and that is what happens at death. If you look at what happened with the witch of Endor, it was Samual's spirit that was brought back (No 'nephesh'), but all this 'what part' talk dilutes the wholistic concept of personhood. We will have to ask God how he did (does) it
Click to expand...

It is also interesting to note that Eccesiastes 12 doesn't say that it is the 'believing' or 'God saved' spirit that goes back to God, but in all likeliness it is the spirit of ALL men.

What people don't understand is that this 'spirit that goes back to God who gave it' doesn't mean our 'soul or thinking, emotional part of man'. It merely is an acknowledgment of our 'ruach/neshamah', 'life spark' given to man at creation that God gave and God retains. Death is creation in reverse. It is at the resurrection when creation begins anew.
 
Mike,
It may be possible I am being hypersensitive to the “obedience†aspect of a couple of your posts, but here are two references:

“The nature of human dominion over the created order is profound [Gen 1:27; Ps 8:5-8]. We are commissioned to take all the potential and possibilities of nature and develop, shepherd and build them to their highest level. This is only possible because of our unique covenant relationship with God. The rule and position of human beings within nature depends entirely upon their obedience to God, fulfilling his covenant requirements. We serve creation by serving God. We rule aright only as we ourselves are ruled by God. Our interface with nature will only be harmonious and fruitful as we fulfil God's call upon us.
In rebellion towards God, people have the ability to exploit and destroy the world, reducing paradise to a dust bowl. Rabbi Roshi has said of the expression, 've-yirdu' [lhave dominion*], that it may well imply 'descending* as well as the Ascending* of dominion. If we are worthy we will rule over the beasts, if we are not, we will sink lower than the beasts and they will rule over us. The spectrum of possibility is as low as it is high.


It is only as individual people respond in relationship to God, with love, trust and obedience, that they can become what he truly is, and the 'image of God' be fully seen reflecting God's glory. Obedience to God is our fundamental human duty…â€Â

Who are Rabbi Roshi and what is he to you? Yes, I agree that the Hebrew understanding is predominantly speaking to the whole person with the word “soulâ€Â, so, I agree with what you wrote;
“ There is no essential part of man; we are a totality. You do not have a soul, you are a soul. You do not have a body, you are a body...etc. Personhood is not what you have, its what you are.â€Â

Yet, many other places in the O.T., the spirit of man is spoken of as a entity that seems to exist above beyond this general concept of man’s nature, so, can man exist apart from this totality (separate from the flesh)? Being Reform, I do not believe that the flesh is evil as the Greeks believed, I believe what ever sets us apart from the animals is deraved from the “Fallâ€Â.
Bubba
 
Bubba said:
Mike,
It may be possible I am being hypersensitive to the “obedience†aspect of a couple of your posts, but here are two references:

“The nature of human dominion over the created order is profound [Gen 1:27; Ps 8:5-8]. We are commissioned to take all the potential and possibilities of nature and develop, shepherd and build them to their highest level. This is only possible because of our unique covenant relationship with God. The rule and position of human beings within nature depends entirely upon their obedience to God, fulfilling his covenant requirements. We serve creation by serving God. We rule aright only as we ourselves are ruled by God. Our interface with nature will only be harmonious and fruitful as we fulfil God's call upon us.
In rebellion towards God, people have the ability to exploit and destroy the world, reducing paradise to a dust bowl. Rabbi Roshi has said of the expression, 've-yirdu' [lhave dominion*], that it may well imply 'descending* as well as the Ascending* of dominion. If we are worthy we will rule over the beasts, if we are not, we will sink lower than the beasts and they will rule over us. The spectrum of possibility is as low as it is high.


It is only as individual people respond in relationship to God, with love, trust and obedience, that they can become what he truly is, and the 'image of God' be fully seen reflecting God's glory. Obedience to God is our fundamental human duty…â€Â

Who are Rabbi Roshi and what is he to you? Yes, I agree that the Hebrew understanding is predominantly speaking to the whole person with the word “soulâ€Â, so, I agree with what you wrote;
“ There is no essential part of man; we are a totality. You do not have a soul, you are a soul. You do not have a body, you are a body...etc. Personhood is not what you have, its what you are.â€Â
Click to expand...
Hi Bubba,
These were notes that I was given during this module as part of the theology class. I think what the author is stating when we are fully obedient to God's will, then of course his image will be reflected in us (think about the fruits of the spirit, that is my understanding of letting God have his way in us and transforming our minds)
The other part of obedience is having 'dominion' of nature as in Genesis 1. 'Dominion' in Hebrew has a 'caretaker' sense about it rather than 'exploitation'. As far as I know, Rabbi Roshi is a Hebrew commentator.
Yet, many other places in the O.T., the spirit of man is spoken of as a entity that seems to exist above beyond this general concept of man’s nature, so, can man exist apart from this totality (separate from the flesh)? Being Reform, I do not believe that the flesh is evil as the Greeks believed, I believe what ever sets us apart from the animals is depraved from the “Fallâ€Â.
Bubba
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Hi Bubba,
That is the the sum of it, when people who were in Sheol were 'Rephaim', not 'Nephesh' where death is not extinction. It is a complicated picture and one has to take away the Greek influences to see the unfolding image of personhood.
 
Mike,
I believe we are more in agreement then disagreement, I was thrown off track thinking that you believe like the “Soul Sleep†people. Thanks for being cordial.
Bubba
 
Hi Bubba. You asked a question that I wish to answer myself.
You mentioned certain "ifs", such as, couldn't the resurrection Jesus is referring to, be the uniting of our physical body with our spirit which is in heaven? Ref: John 5:28.

Well, first of all, in the Bible, when it speaks of someone dying, it is the person who is said to die--not just part of him. I know Eccl. 12:7, AV, says, "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return under God who gave it." But what is our spirit, but, our life force being formed in us with every breath.

As with any subject, especially in the Bible, all verses relative to it must be read and studied in their context, in order to arrive at the best conclusion.

Here are a few:
In Gen. 6:17 we read, NIV, "I am going to bring flood waters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it."

And in Gen. 7:22, "All in whose nostrils was the breath (neshamah, Heb) of the spirit (reach, Heb.) of life, of all that was on the dry land died." Parentheses mine.

Zech. 12:1, "...The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him.."

When it says in Ecc. that our spirit returns to God who gave it, I understand it to mean that inner vitality which is related to breath, and is not some part of God's eternal spirit.

Getting late, so all for now. Bick
 
Bick said:
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Here are some verses that I have trouble understanding, if man has an immortal soul:
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The term "immortal soul" is nowhere to found in the bible. It is found in the works of Socrates and other Greek and pagan influences. The idea as well is not biblically founded.
 
Well bubba you wrote that “we have a dual nature, physical (the body) and immaterial (spirit/soul). Your theology sounds strangely Gnostic.
Gnosticism in the early church claimed to have special or secret knowledge that would enable them to escape the world of matter which they considered to be evil.
Much of what Gnostic teachings about the soul was based on Greek and Egyptian philosophy which taught that man had a dual nature. Both physical and spiritual. That at death the soul would leave the body and exist in a spiritual realm. Unfortunately it has crept into the Christian Church where some church denominations believe in the immortality of the soul.

So you want me to work through these texts that you put up. OK, no problems.
I will be summarizing these texts, otherwise the post will be too long. I have come from a forum that allowed a maximum of one hundred words a post. So I don’t like long posts.

In regards to the OT texts that you used, there are three Hebrew words that I have found.
“Ruwach, Nephesh, Neshamahâ€Â
Job 32:8 But it is the spirit (Ruach) in a man, the breath (Neshamah)of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.

Ruach: wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. life, , but only of a rational being air, anger, blast, breath, mind, , spirit.

Neshamah: vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or an animal:--blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.
If you go back to Gen. 2:7 God breathed into the formed man the breath of life and he became a Soul or living breathing human being which had a mind to think for himself and make choices.

Isaiah 26:9 This text has Nephesh and Ruach.
9 My soul (nephesh) yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit (ruach)longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.
Nephesh: a breathing creature such as an animal with mind and body. desire, heart.
So in the context of this verse it would be My heart yearns; my mind longs for you.
Zechariah 21:1. The context of this verse is God as creator of this world and all life formed the man which includes the breath (ruwach) and he became a rational being.
See Gen. 2:7
Job14:22 But his flesh will be in pain over it, And his soul (Nephesh) will mourn over it." (NKJV)
Job 14:22 He feels but the pain of his own body and mourns only for himself.(Nephesh)" (NIV)
Your are wrong Bubba. Ruwach is not found in this verse. It is Nephesh
A modern translation gives a more logical translation. Because soul here is not some spirit entity as you would have me believe, it is the whole person: (himself).
Job 34: 14 If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit (Ruwach) and breath, (Neshamah)
15 all mankind would perish together and man would return to the dust.
If God reversed what he did on creation week Gen 2:7 all of mankind would perish; and notice that we don’t go off floating to an ethereal existence, we return where we originally came from, the dust of the earth. In other words we cease to exist.
Haven’t you ever read Ecclesiastes 9: 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.
There are some Christians who have the idea that we receive our reward at death. That is, enjoying heavenly bliss after we die. But not according to scripture. In Revelation 22: 12 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.
So according to Revelation, we receive our reward at Jesus’ second coming, and not at death.
I will continue on in another post and try to work out the rest of these verses.
God Bless
gazzamor
 
Wow! This has gotten to be some discussion! Some of the posts are like long letters, where each one lists many interpretations.

I've been trying to read them all but it's quite a job. Some repeat part of what others say, yet with different views.

I've a confession to make. My questions were leading, to where I hoped one could see from the verses that a believer's soul couldn't be alive in heaven 'around the throne of God', if what Jesus said is true.

I.E., John 5:28,29: Jesus said, "..all that are in the graves shall hear his voice," notice, he identifies all (who have died) are in the graves; both believers and unbelievers. No one in some other "body" is in a place of bliss or place of torment. They are dead! Until resurrected!

John 6:39,40: Again, Jesus is referring to those believing in Him who will die in the future. We know that death separates, and if Jesus knew that believers 'souls' (having a body, eyes to see, ears to hear, a mouth to praise, etc) would be with him someday in heaven, why would He have to say that it is His Father's will that, "I should lose nothing, but raise it up again at the last day." ? To me. it just affirms that throughout the Bible, the whole person is said to die, or be dead, and it is the whole person who is resurrected, when the life giving spirit of God makes them alive.

And some other key verses (which have already been quoted) are: AV

"And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13
NO ONE IS IN HEAVEN BUT CHRIST. John wrote this some years after Jesus resurrection and ascension.

Does that include the OT saints? You bet it does! Peter preaching on the day of Pentecost says, concerning David:

"Men and brethren, let me freely speak to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."
Acts 2:29
Also: "For David is not ascended into the heavens..." Acts 2:34

I'd like to discuss those scriptures that seem contrary on another post.

Bick
 
Hi rezenwerks. You are right. "Immortal soul" is not in the Bible. I used the phrase because it is a traditional term, not that I endorse it.

Without getting too long, let us look at some of the NT scriptures generally quoted to affirm "absent from the body-present with the Lord." I am alluding to 2 Cor. 5:8.

In this, like in all biblical studies, the whole context must be considered. It has been said, "To take a text out of it's context, can make it a pretext.

Starting at verse 1 of chapt.5, in the RSV: "For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Here indeed we groan, and long to put on our heavenly dwelling, so that by putting it on we may not be found naked."

Let's look at this thus far. Paul is using a number of metaphors: "earthly tent" for "our body"; "a building from God..." for "our glorified, heavenly body"; and "naked" for "being dead, having no body."

Going on: "For while we are still in this tent, we sigh with anxiety; not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the spirit as a guarantee."

Again, "tent" for "body"; "unclothed" for "dead"; and "further clothed" for "our heavenly body".

Also, notice Paul uses the term "mortal being swallowed up by life", which takes us back to his first letter to the Corinthians, chapter 15, verse 51ff, where he points out that those asleep in Christ, those perished,will put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So that is what Paul is saying. And knowing this, his great yearning was to not die, but to be made immortal while still living.

Going back to 2 Cor. 5:6ff, "For we are always of good courage; we know that when we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walkby faith not by sight. We are of good courage, and we would rather be at home with the Lord."

Paul, when writing this longed to put on immortality and be with the Lord, and so, I'm sure would all of us.

Certainly, my hope daily would be just that, the catching away of the church/body of Christ to meet Him secretly in the air, then on to the heavenlies, as we read in Ephesians.

All for now, Bick
 
Yes Bick. I have posted extensively on 2 Corinthians 5:8 and the whole passage is talking about receiving the resurrection body, not having my disembodied soul go to heaven at death. It is unbelievable how so many can ignore clear teaching of the resurrection for an 'immortal soul' which isn't even implied linguistically in the chapter.

Also interesting to note Paul's words "that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life." is a clear connection to 1 Corinthians 15:51-55: 'So when this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying 'death is swallowed up in victory'.

To be 'further clothed' means to put on the spiritual body spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:35-45 at the resurrection.

It is so much safer to ignore biblical exegesis to continue believing apologism and assumptions reading in what the text doesn't say.
 
I'm listing Bubba's quote:

"1 Thess. 4:14-18 “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. Whether one believes this is the 2nd coming or the rapture, the point is made that there are those who come with Jesus to be united with their bodies. Since the dead rise first and those who are alive don’t receive a resurrection but a transformation. Vs.15 “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.†Where is Jesus coming from? Heaven. If Jesus is bringing some people with him and they don’t have resurrected bodies yet, doesn’t this mean they are immaterial spirits. What dead are rising? Certainly this are not those who are alive and remain. The dead are those who bodies are put to sleep. This is exactly what Paul explains in 1 Cor.15:52-54 “the dead will be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed (those who are still alive) previously Paul explains the body in vs.35-49 vs.42 so is the resurrection of the dead. The BODY is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.†So resurrection refers to the human body not the soul or spirit, it is the body that sleeps and will be resurrected. As we have seen our hope is to be immediately with the Lord, not wait for some undetermined future time."

In looking at this passage, let's look at vs. 15ff first: "...we will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep." It says "THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP", Emphasis mine; It is persons who 'fall asleep' in death. There is nothing said about the "soul sleeping." Throughout the Bible, death is said to be a 'sleep'. "Sleep" is a metaphor for "death".

Going on: "...the dead in Christ will rise first.." Notice, "the dead", not "the bodies of the dead", are to arise. It's true that 'the body' is associated with the person, even in death, and thus in resurrection.

So, if the above is true, as well as John 3:13 where we read "No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven...", then perhaps verse 14 above is a poor translation. And, I would insist that it is.

I would suggest that Bubba's quote start at vs.13, "But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep.." As others on this thread have said, Paul is enlightening the Thessalonian belivers as to "those who are asleep."

So, I wish to quote from a more correct, literal translation from Rotherham:
"For, if we believe that Jesus died and arose, thus also will God lead forth those who fell asleep, through Jesus, in conjunction with him."

Paul tells us in Rom.6:5ff, "For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his." RSV

And in Eph.1:19ff, "...and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe, according to the working of his great might, which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead ..." RSV;

So, God will raise up and lead forth through Jesus, those who have fallen asleep.

All for now, Bick
 
Yes, Bick. The Message Bible says the same thing.

'Will God bring with Him' doesn't mean 'Christ will bring the souls back from heaven to be reunited with their bodies'.

What a gross mistranslation and ignorance of the context!

It means that as Jesus DIED and ROSE, even so (or in the same manner of), those that are asleep (not in heaven as disembodied souls) will God bring with Him (will God raise up in the same manner).

Unfortunately, many will just gloss over the context and the validity of the first part of verse 14 to explain the last part.

It is much easier to belief untruths and say, "Nope. Doesn't matter what the other bibles say. Souls come down from heaven and that's it!"
 
Hi guibox. Guibox, my man, sometimes you too sarcastic. You must remember that all of us as Christians were taught certain trues, and, when we were new in the Faith, we never questioned them. The great majority of believers no nothing of a concordance, or lexicon, bible commentaries, or other tools to ascertain the truth of some subject.

The hardest thing is to "unlearn" what has been assumed the truth. At least it was for me.

Take for example "soul". The word in Hebrew is "nephesh", and it occurs some 754 times; and in the AV and the RSV, it is translated "soul" 472 times; and the remaining 282 occurrences are represented by 44 different words or phrases. From Companion Bible, Appendix 13.

So, it is extremely rare that someone is going to look up and read all those occurrences, to gain a better understanding.

Truthfully, I haven't investigated all 754 places, but I have read through the 472 places, their shortened verses that is, in a concordance.

And, after investigating those places in the Scriptures that seem to indicate that man, after death, is really alive in another form, it is my conclusion that when man is dead he is non-existent until resurrected.

Bick
 
Yes, I suppose I can be sarcastic. The only reason I am is because I am so tired of people calling my beliefs 'cultic' or 'twisting the words of Jesus' when they are too close minded to really look at it and see that the biblical evidence is against them. Instead, they mock and ridicule these biblical beliefs and believe that which isn't even in the bible all the while priding themselves that they are 'Sola Scriptura' even when they are infusing preconceived pagan beliefs into the Bible.

That is what bothers me.
 
I know, guibox. So many "Bible students" limit their understanding of a particular doctrine on what they have been taught by noted Theologians, rather than check out all the scriptures, using as many tools as necessary.

Phil.1:21 "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain", is another oft quoted verse to justify the belief that Paul was saying it was his gain if he should die, and, it was assumed, he meant he would be with Christ.

Again, the text is taken out of its context.

For the context, let's start at verse 20, using the AV: "According to mu earnest expectation and hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life or by death."

Here we see Paul's hope, that in nothing would he be ashamed, and that Christ would be magnified, would be elevated, would gain, whether by Paul's life or death. In all of Paul's ministry, he wanted no praise. His every thought and act was for Christ to gain, to be magnified.

So, in vs 21, the words "to Christ" should be added as an ellipsis, if not by the translator, certainly in our minds. Like this: "For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain (to Christ)."

And vs 23 reads in the AV, "For I am in a straight betwixt two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better..."

Can anyone make sense of "in a straight betwixt two"? Greek-English interlinear would read ..for I am being pressed out of the two..
Paul, writing from prison knew his time was short, and he is stating he was being pressed out of the two, life or death, desiring to be with the Lord.
And, that would be the catching away of the Church/body of Christ as Paul already made clear in 1 Cor. 15:35-50 and 1 Thes. 4:13-18.

All for now, Bick
 
Bick said:
Can anyone make sense of "in a straight betwixt two"? Greek-English interlinear would read ..for I am being pressed out of the two..
Paul, writing from prison knew his time was short, and he is stating he was being pressed out of the two, life or death, desiring to be with the Lord.
And, that would be the catching away of the Church/body of Christ as Paul already made clear in 1 Cor. 15:35-50 and 1 Thes. 4:13-18.

All for now, Bick
Click to expand...

Yes, it is good to see different translations. I always believed that this verse was giving a third option. Paul obviously wouldn't be having a conflict between life and death if to 'depart and be with Christ' was dying and was 'far better'.

That is like me standing in front of the fruti bowl scratching my head and saying. 'Man I just can't seem to decide between oranges and apples. But I have a desire to choose apples which are far better'.

Hello...choose the apples.
 
Hi Bick, A couple of good posts you put in there.
I’ve been trying to answer some of bubba’s texts that he put up for me to look at about breath/soul. So that’s what I have been doing these last couple of posts, plus some of my own comments as well.
You are quite right; the bible says nothing about immortal souls in heaven. In fact the bible clearly states in 1 Timothy 6:15, 16 that God alone is immortal. So where does that put us. We don’t have immortality yet; only at Jesus’ second coming when we will be changed in a twinkling of an eye (1 Cor. 15:52-54).

Continuing on. Hi Bubba, Your reasoning on Psalm 19:7 shows that you have a wrong concept of the word “soulâ€Â. The Hebrew word “Nephesh†in this context is converting the mind which converts the person (life). The mind is where we make our choices in life. The love of God has been converting millions of lives through the Holy Spirit over the millennia of time.

You wrote: “Can the breath do any of these things or does it communicate emotion, intelligence etc. . .

Your questioning of breath as just a bodily function that keeps us alive is quite limited. If you just limit it to just breath then it would be illogical to suggest that a breath of air could communicate, emotions or intelligence. But the Hebrew word “Nephesh†in the context of these verses would mean “mindâ€Â, and the mind does communicate emotions and intelligence. . . .

The popular concept that the souls of men depart at death and exist in a state of conscious awareness in heavenly bliss is denied by Scripture.
Psalm 115: 16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's; But the earth He has given to the children of men.
17 The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor any who go down into silence.

If would be logical to conclude that if our “conscious entities†arrive up in the heavenly realms, we would naturally expect that the redeemed souls would be praising God for their deliverance.
This is denied here by the Psalmist. According to this verse, when we are dead we cannot praise the LORD. We are in a state of unconscious sleep. We go down into silence.

Psalm 88:11 Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in Destruction ?
12 Are your wonders known in the place of darkness, or your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion?

Even the Psalmist calls death a sleep.

Psalm 13: 3 Look on me and answer, O LORD my God. Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death;

Jesus called death a sleep
John 11:11-14.

So what is the hope of the Christian?
Souls up in heaven at death?
The bible knows of no such thing. What is the point of Jesus coming back to raise the dead if we are already up there enjoying the privileges of heaven?
The hope of the Christian is the resurrection.
Martha had the right concept when Jesus said to her that her brother would rise again.
John 11: 23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
24 Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
Jesus didn’t say to Martha not to worry, Lazarus is up in heaven looking down.

Job had the right concept

Job 19: 26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;
Job’s hope was in the resurrection not in some heavenly bliss after death.

God Bless

gazzamor
 
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