If not God

[jasoncran]

Well in fairness he asked us the question here!

And I'm really interested in religion because it has such a large impact on the culture that surrounds me. I'm hoping to get better aquainted with scripture next semester as I'm taking some theology courses in University. I believe in a well rounded education, and new ideas rarely come from talking with people of like mind.

All in all, having your beliefs challenged allows you to refine them and understand if they are really your beliefs.

@ Oats

In terms of randomness, I assume you are in part referring to the inherent perfection on earth, and how it couldn't possibly be anything but a result of design.

To me, it is any argument on how improbable the perfection that exists in the natural world cannot be random is moot. It is here and if it wasn't, we wouldn't be around to have this conversation.

Furthermore, I would say everything is far from "perfect" or "balanced". In fact, life as we know it is constantly on the edge of chaos, teetering back and forth towards total implosion or explosion. There is no status quo that nature is constantly at. This is why conservation is so hard.

Finally, I would be ignorant to think that we have all the answers at our fingertips now. Clearly there is a self-organizing behaviour evident in all systems that we do not understand fully. To me, that does not imply a creator, it implies more knowledge that will eventually unravel, leading to even more mysteries. To me, furthering the borders of humanity involves unravelling these mysteries.

@ Jason

I have very little formal education in psychology. Basically, as Pebbles said, reality is what it is. There is no "meaning" or "purpose" to it. Some people are unlucky and others are lucky. My advice would be to seek professional help and to try to find happiness and love (not necessarily romantic) again in your life.

no level of human "love" can ever heal that. I dont try understand that . i have accepted that suffering allowed by God and while you may not understand this. I have the peace that passeth all understanding. I know that God is here with me know and was with me in War. Oh, the stories of near death for me and also men that i asked to God to spare.

 

[Oats]

@ Oats

I'm sorry I don't really understand what you're asking. "The idea idea isn't [perfect]"?

I don't believe I ever said god is perfect or imperfect. Rather, I said I don't see him as a logical explanation for mysteries we do not understand. As for life being imperfect: I am comparing to the perfection evident in a crystal lattice or the development of a eutelic organism that take the same shape every time. The so called "balance of nature" is not immutable.

I hope I have successfully answered your question as to why God is not a necessary component of reality in my previous posts. If you need any more clarification, feel free to let me know.

@ Ashua

I have avoided ad hominim attacks against your belief system. I would appreciate if you didn't use them against mine.

something more perfect than it's creator?

no.

i'll read up on that.


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What is perfection?


i can pin this a couple of ways and i double typed idea

i said humankind is imperfect

but the concept/idea of reality/life isn't

it creates the idea and comparison to perfection/God

 

[abrown9]

I guess I would say that perfection is impossible to define. As a species, we strive for what we see as perfection, but in reality is only a man-made concept of what is perfect. We created God in our image and stripped him of all human "folly", whatever that is.

In my opinion, there is no perfection, there is only what exists. Humans have an excedingly arrogant view as the pinnacle of evolution (or creation). In reality, we are no more adapted (or perfect) in our own environment than a dung beetle is in its own. Nature does not think, feel, or acknowledge the concept of perfection.

 

[Alabaster]

I guess I would say that perfection is impossible to define. As a species, we strive for what we see as perfection, but in reality is only a man-made concept of what is perfect. We created God in our image and stripped him of all human "folly", whatever that is.

In my opinion, there is no perfection, there is only what exists. Humans have an excedingly arrogant view as the pinnacle of evolution (or creation). In reality, we are no more adapted (or perfect) in our own environment than a dung beetle is in its own. Nature does not think, feel, or acknowledge the concept of perfection.

How sad....

When one has met the Almighty God in his life, that is when he becomes acutely aware of how low he is in the natural, and how magnificent and perfect God is! By the supernatural power of God who communicates His great love for us, we can transcend from a sense of worthlessness to the heights of knowing (not mere imagining) that because of what He has done for us to reconcile us to Himself, we have great worth to Him.

 

[abrown9]

But thats just the thing! I don't view the fact that my world is insignificant as depressing or defeating. To quote Richard Feynman:

"But I don`t have to know an answer. I don`t feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in the mysterious universe without having any purpose — which is the way it really is, as far as I can tell, possibly. It doesn`t frighten me."

The topic asks how an atheist can accept reality without god. I have seen nothing in my life to convince me that a creator is necessary for the world to exist as we know it. Certainly the natural world is magical, but only magical in the sense of the wonder it inspires in us. Just because it is created by a series of "random" occurences does not make it any less wondrous.

 

[Alabaster]

But thats just the thing! I don't view the fact that my world is insignificant as depressing or defeating. To quote Richard Feynman:

"But I don`t have to know an answer. I don`t feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in the mysterious universe without having any purpose — which is the way it really is, as far as I can tell, possibly. It doesn`t frighten me."

The topic asks how an atheist can accept reality without god. I have seen nothing in my life to convince me that a creator is necessary for the world to exist as we know it. Certainly the natural world is magical, but only magical in the sense of the wonder it inspires in us. Just because it is created by a series of "random" occurences does not make it any less wondrous.

Certainly the natural man can exist fairly well in the natural world without God. Man can enjoy all the benefits of life given by the One who gives life, without giving Him recognition or thanks. He is that kind of God.

But what natural man will discover, hopefully before he fades to death is that there is a SUPERnatural life that is offered by that SUPERnatural God.

The natural man lives and dies and without God, there is no glory in that life, no reward, no eternal life. For the man who lives in Christ, he receives supernatural favour, power and ability, and when he passes on, he moves seamlessly into eternal life with God.

Big diff.

 

[Oats]

I guess I would say that perfection is impossible to define. As a species, we strive for what we see as perfection, but in reality is only a man-made concept of what is perfect. We created God in our image and stripped him of all human "folly", whatever that is.

In my opinion, there is no perfection, there is only what exists. Humans have an excedingly arrogant view as the pinnacle of evolution (or creation). In reality, we are no more adapted (or perfect) in our own environment than a dung beetle is in its own. Nature does not think, feel, or acknowledge the concept of perfection.

in your opinion that is...

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on topic


for you to say humans are imperfect , then to turn around and say perfection doesn't exist is a contradiction

lets talk about that...

You're saying if man was perfect then God does exist.

Based on that God would have to make beings wholly as himself

but the fact that he takes his own dirt and forms it as he likes he is imperfect

if God does exist he is the only blueprint for perfection

if this is how he intended the world to be, it is as it is.

the same is true for the opposite

If the big bang did happen and God does not exist then there is no point in saying we should have been otherwise.
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Furthermore,

To say the Big Bang caused it self is a long shot

it's the say as a law that breaks itself or a law that enforces itself

even then there would have to be a math or a set of parameters for expansion, therefore the Big Bang would be sentient.

Dr.Craig explains it better

read through this please...

Creation and Big Bang Cosmology, by William Lane Craig: C.S. Lewis Society of California