if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?

[rosswell]

There is a new topic for discussing this issue so I'm going to post my reply there.

 

[Elijah674]

NO OTHER NAME!! Back on Topic!
See Acts 4:12!

God said to God/Christ.. '[I WILL] (future/tense) declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto *ME,
[THOU] art my SON: [[[THIS DAY HAVE I **BEGOTTEN THEE]]].' Psalms 2:7

SO WHO WAS CHRIST BEFORE HE WAS THE SON??? And DO NOT FORGET THAT THIS IS

ETERNAL GOSPEL! Rev. 14:6 And God was surely NOT TALKING TO HIMSELF!

And Paul Tel's us of when the DAY CAME for CHRIST to [BECOME THE SON] in Acts 13:32-33..

'And we declare unto you glad tidings, how [THAT PROMISE] which was made [UNTO THE FATHERS] [GOD HATH FULFILLED] the same unto [us their children] **IN THAT HE HATH RAISED UP JESUS AGAIN; as it is ALSO written in the second Psalm, [**THOU ART MY SON THIS DAY **HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE].'

Again! Who was the GOD/MAN CHRIST before the Eternal PLAN was Consummated?? It is for

sure that God was Not talking too or ABOUT HIMSELF! Yet, the 'us' verse finds these two with

IMMORTALITY, for angels are created beings. (Eze. 28:15)

And the TIME had COME for Christ to BECOME THE SON! And here is another HOLY SPIRIT OR

HOLY GHOST INSPIRED verse to add to the ETERNAL WORD HIMSELF BEFORE HE BECAME

THE SON. (and that verse was John 1:3 'The WORD WAS GOD!

In Their UNIFIED CREATION before Adam sinned we see all three Active. After Adam sinned he lost the 'dominion of earth to satan. See Gen. 1:26 & Matt. 4:9.

And at this time the Eternal PLAN of the Rev. 14:6 'ETERNAL GOSPEL' was set into motion. That plan of the Godhead gave satan Adams jurisdiction over earth. And they put Christ in charge of Adams past domain. (Christ was to be the second Adam) And He lived as man in a sin decayed body.

That is enough for now. Yet, take NOTE of a sin/less Christ who has DOCUMENTED below, that the Holy Spirit Himself IS AN [[SEPARATE INDIVIDUAL!]]

John 14

[15] If ye love me, keep my commandments.

[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may

abide with you for ever;

[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not,

neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

( surely one has got to be Born Again FIRST! John 3:3)

Nevertheless ]I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

[8] And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, (see Gen. 6:3 for His STRIVINGS!) and

of righteousness, and of judgment:

[9] Of sin, because they believe not on me;

[10] Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;


[11] Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.


[12] I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

( one needs to remember that they are to be Born Again first! other/wise it is just Gen. 6:3

STRIVINGS! And not Rom. 8:14's LEADING)

[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

[14] He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
( How many singular [HE's} are INSPIRED there by Christ!
And it seems that, that this pennman.. John, who lived right on up to AD 96 would have had the Holy Spirit have him tidy up any mistakes that he 'might' had made, if need be, huh?)


What gets me, is the devil is a LIAR from the beginning, while CHRIST IS SO POSITIVELY CLEAR HERE, and yet, you'ins just keep on with corresponding with his 'agents'!
But remember again the verse 8 ones that are not being LED astray, as the Born Again ones of Rom. 8:14 are!

OK: ONLY [[[GOD]] HAS IMMORTALITY! Not any creation on THEIRS! GOD/FATHER GOD/CHRIST GOD/HOLY SPIRIT & OR HOLY GHOST, and these Three have been ETERNALLY 3 Separate individuals. Heb. 13:8

1 John 5:7-8
'For there [ARE THREE] that bear RECORD IN HEAVEN, [THE FATHER], THE [WORD], and the [HOLY GHOST:] and [THESE THREE ARE ONE.] And there are [THREE THAT BEAR RECORD IN EARTH], the [SPIRIT], (if one is Born Again! other/wise His Gen. 6:3's STRIVING is only 'felt' but rejected!) and the water, and the blood: and [THESE THREE AGREE IN ONE].' (UNITY! UNITED FAMILY OF GOD, like we are supposed to be.)

'.. Who is blessed and only Potentate, the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords; [WHO ONLY HAS IMMORTALITY], dwelling in the LIGHT WHICH NO MAN CAN APPROACH unto..'

'Now unto the King [[ETERNAL]] [[IMMORTAL]], [[INVISIBLE, the [[ONLY WISE GOD]]..' (again, two of the Godhead with an image & one seen above as Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost with NO Image 'DWELLING IN THE LIGHT'.)

Again: TWO with an IMAGE as previously stated by this GOD/HOLY/SPIRIT INSPIRATION + the WORD/CHRIST GOD, and all in UNITY as ONE with God the Father as now understood.

And still one must remember that CHRIST IS THE CENTERPIECE of this Eternal/plan after Adam fell, and He came to be the second Adam, & EARTH which was lost by the first Adam was to be reclaimed by Christ/man (Perfect/man! compare Isa. 42:21)

--Elijah

 

[francisdesales]

To a degree, that is true. Many Christians have a hard time explaining the Trinity. But that doesn't mean that there are inconsistencies in the ACTUAL doctrine, when correctly explained.

If your doctrine is biblical you should not have hard time explaining it. How many of your people understand the trinity? I hear so many leaders say trinity is a mystery. I believe it is a cop out. Nothing that the organization made up are logical. Take a look at Calvin's doctrines. The trinity is the same way.

Baloney, whether a doctrine is true or not has nothing to do with whether person "x" can explain it to YOUR standards (and my discussions with you make it plain that you won't listen, anyways). Shad, honestly, if a second grader doesn't know how to do Calculus, do that mean Calculus is a lie????

Come on...

Now, does your lack of BASIC KNOWLEDGE OF YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT and how it works means that the GOVERNMENT ITSELF is based upon inconsistencies?

Let me ask you this, do you believe US leaders are godly?

Non-sequitar. I proved my point and your comment does not even address your lack of knowledge of our form of Government.

I dont even vote because it does not matter who gets elected.

That's a cop out, Shad. You have no room to complain about our government's leaders if you don't exercise your right to vote because you are apathetic.

This world is corrupt because satan is in charge of this world. God gave governments for secular people. This world will stay corrupted and it will get even worse, according to the Bible.

That's because people like you are not "lights to the world". You hide your light under a bushel basket while wringing your hands and justifying your apathy with "it's in the Bible".

The governments make laws according to what the majority wants, not what God wants them to do.

If the majority was of a Christian mind who cared about defending their nation's way of life, Shad, where would we be???

Yea, people like you who don't vote.... No wonder the wacko liberal freaks are taking over...

 

[shad]

Baloney, whether a doctrine is true or not has nothing to do with whether person "x" can explain it to YOUR standards (and my discussions with you make it plain that you won't listen, anyways).

You cannot explain to your people, otherwise your people would understand the trinity. Most of your people dont. Even many trinitarian leaders say they cannot explain the trinity.

Now, does your lack of BASIC KNOWLEDGE OF YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT and how it works means that the GOVERNMENT ITSELF is based upon inconsistencies?

I understand basic knowledge of our government. I dont trust the people who are leading this country.

Non-sequitar. I proved my point and your comment does not even address your lack of knowledge of our form of Government.

You did not prove your point whatsoever. The government works based on the majority's opinions. Jesus' followers dont work for the majority, they work for God.

That's a cop out, Shad. You have no room to complain about our government's leaders if you don't exercise your right to vote because you are apathetic.

I am not complaining. I have to live in this world until I die. But I dont work for this world. I only pay the taxes because I live here.

That's because people like you are not "lights to the world". You hide your light under a bushel basket while wringing your hands and justifying your apathy with "it's in the Bible".

I dont hide, I only live for Jesus not for this world. That's what Jesus says to do.

If the majority was of a Christian mind who cared about defending their nation's way of life, Shad, where would we be???

What's your point? Such a place doesn't exist and won't until Jesus comes back.

Yea, people like you who don't vote.... No wonder the wacko liberal freaks are taking over...

As opposed to the wacko fundamentalists. Is your favorite leader trustworthy and godly?

 

[shad]

Our leaders are chosen by the majority under our current government. The majority are lost sinners. There is no way we could prevail even if all Christians were able to agree on the right man for the job. God, on the other hand, is able to direct the hearts of the people as He chooses. If you have any verses which show we should be involved in government policy please show them.

Well said rosswell. :yes

 

[shad]

Pacrat,

Jesus is sent by God(YHWH), His Father. Jesus says it over and over. It is illogical to say that Jesus is equal with His Father. If He was equal with Him He would not be sent. His position is submissive to His Father throughout the Bible. If He was equal with His Father, He would not have be so submissive to Him. On the other hand His Father is always in charge and never submissive to anyone.

You can see why trinity is illogical and why trinitarians have a hard time explaining it. It is illogical in every way.

Shad, God the Father is the head. This means he makes all the decisions for the body of God. Jesus also said that he would ask the Father (i.e. God) and the Father would send the Holy Spirit. So do you believe the Holy Spirit is not God (John 14:26)?

I see nothing illogical with a mother and unborn child being considered as one human being and yet being two human beings. If it is possible for us to be plural and yet singular in nature then it is certainly possible for God. It doesn't matter if the baby in the mother is later born and cut off from her just as long as the two are one at least at some point in time.

I will start a new thread about God and Jesus not being equal. I have to gather up the verses. Stay tuned.

 

[jasoncran]

i dont fully understand god therefore he cant exist.

 

[francisdesales]

You cannot explain to your people, otherwise your people would understand the trinity. Most of your people dont. Even many trinitarian leaders say they cannot explain the trinity.

Are you sure you know anything about logic? You can't explain how the Government works, so it must all be a lie...?

I understand basic knowledge of our government.

I don't think so, if you think this government is a run as a "democracy".

I dont trust the people who are leading this country.

And you show this by NOT voting...

You did not prove your point whatsoever. The government works based on the majority's opinions.

You are proving my point again. You honestly think that the "MAJORITY'S OPINION" has anything to do with how laws are made or enforced? :rolling :biglaugh

Do you know what a REPUBLIC is???

Dude, forget about it...

 

[shad]

Are you sure you know anything about logic? You can't explain how the Government works, so it must all
be a lie...?

You are confusing people with your doctrine, yet you say it is biblical without being able to explain it. You are resorting to sarcastic remarks because you cannot refute anymore. It is so unbecoming. It is better to stop instead of sinking to sarcastic remarks.

I don't think so, if you think this government is a run as a "democracy".

Are you a US citizen? Since when has the US stopped running as a democracy?

And you show this by NOT voting...

For me, voting for someone means you approve of them to make the right decisions. I DON'T.

You are proving my point again. You honestly think that the "MAJORITY'S OPINION" has anything to do with how laws are made or enforced? :rolling :biglaugh

The laws are made by our leaders who are elected by the people.

Do you know what a REPUBLIC is???

Yes. A society run by elected officials.

PS, I have many verses in my new thread to prove that God the Father and Jesus are not equal. I hope you dont just throw sarcastic remarks just because you cannot refute them.

 

[francisdesales]

You are confusing people with your doctrine, yet you say it is biblical without being able to explain it.

I have explained everything quite simply. You just don't want to hear the truth of the matter.

The Bible says we are to honor Jesus JUST AS the Father. Just as, Shad. Repeat that and take it in. Understand that Jesus is making Himself equal to the Father, making Himself God, since only God is to be loved with all of one's heart and mind. But you don't want to admit you have been shown wrong, do you, Shad. Thus, you bounce all over the place trying to turn the tables by desperately making odd remarks.

The one who is confused is you, Shad. Isn't that true?

You are resorting to sarcastic remarks because you cannot refute anymore. It is so unbecoming. It is better to stop instead of sinking to sarcastic remarks.

Shad, why are you stooping to such a level. Of course I can refute you. Over and over, I have done just that. My "sarcastic remarks" are my way of showing frustration in your inability to admit you are wrong. I had previously thought you were open to common sense arguments and desired to learn the Truth, but I see that was inaccurate. So now, the sarcastic remarks show more plainly how pitiful your stance is.

Are you a US citizen? Since when has the US stopped running as a democracy?

I am not sure if the United States EVER was a true democracy. We elect people to make decisions for us. That is not the definition of a democracy, that is why we are a Republic. A true democracy calls upon the people to decide for themselves and vote on an issue. Did you vote on the health care plan? How about whether to invade Iraq?

OH, sorry, you don't vote...

The laws are made by our leaders who are elected by the people.

Which is not a democracy. Your inability to explain how the US government works must prove that the American Government is built upon lies and deceit (in the world of "Shad logic")

PS, I have many verses in my new thread to prove that God the Father and Jesus are not equal. I hope you dont just throw sarcastic remarks just because you cannot refute them.

I can refute all of them. You think I have just read a couple verses of the Bible or something? I am quite aware of all of the supposed subordinate verses and I and others have already explained them.

If you cannot understand that we are to honor Jesus JUST AS the FAther, there is no point in discussing the Bible, you are not going to listen anyways.

 

[jasoncran]

talk about lack of basic civics. the u.s was never a democracy.

the founding fathers couldnt or nor didnt want to trust the common man to decide what he wanted. all democracies in history usually have turned into dictatorships.

shad, read the founding father's statements. i have read paine's book the common sense, and he goes into the republic,democracy and monarchy.

 

[Elijah674]

The Subject is Reverant & Crucial. It should be treated as such! Go back to page one and see how satan has got into some 'postings' little by litle until now. It is hardly possible to regard any subject even when it is correct, by the constant personal attacks of any one 'WORKING THEIR 'VAIN' WAY TO HEAVEN'??? Titus 3:9-11 Some try to use God's Word alone & stay on the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST (2 John 1:9-10) without the constant side/tracking of this Word alone by deversion tactics, (2 Cor. 4:2) yet, to NO AVAIL!

To be more clear Forum: The Saints serve the Lord because we LOVE HIM. And then we hear & see satans 'fold' having this truth taught on the false evil CONTENT that these loving ones are WORKING THEIR WAY TO HEAVEN! (like counting rosary beads) And satan has his counterfiet in every doctrine imaginable to twist & pervert! And you can be sure that the Godhead is HATED by him! (Isaiah 14:12-14)

Bottom/Line! James 4:17 'Therefor [TO HIM THAT KNOWETH TO DO GOOD, AND DOETH IT NOT, TO HIM IT IS SIN].'
And who knows what is in another's heart?? These constant attackers?? [NO WAY!] THAT IS CERTAIN, and satan just loves for then to have some TRUTH, HUH! Matt. 4:6 (see Psalms 91:11) And this DOCTRINE IS TRUTH, but at one time 'some' even taught a threeheaded god.

Even think of Cain in Gen. 4:3-7 who was a mature man at this time, who had not ever been mentioned as having been unfaithful until now. Notice that the LAMB OF GOD was his testing FAILURE in his false offering of OBEDIENT FAITH! Think! This offering was PROVING AN 'ETERNAL CHRIST GOD/SON IN THE [PLAN] OF SALVATION! Psalms 1:7 + Acts 13:32-33 (take note of again) +the Time! in Heb. 1:1;5 verse five finds Christ now at this time in the N.T. as Begotten.) Also it condems as fatal a [MATURE] sin of changing any truth for error such as a fruite sun offering for the Lord's 7th Day Sabbath REQUIREMENT!

Again, in bottomline it is the LEADING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (Rom. 8:14) which we [ALL] are ACCOUNTABLE to follow that will find us in the Unity of Matt. 6:24!
--Elijah