Bible Study If someone doesn't know about Christ, and has never heard of Christ, then where do they go when they die?

[JLB]

If someone doesn't know about Christ, and has never heard of Christ, then where do they go when they die?

This brings up an example: Indigenous people who according to history have had the deepest connection with the Earth and nature, who by their teachings had a deep respect for our Earth and life itself..as far as I know they do not follow Christ. They were taught about Jesus in the most brutal and evil ways, which I've been told was not the work of Jesus but how could they be expected to go from their lives which were of deep connection to nature and themselves to following someone who they were taught about in brutal ways. Their lives became a version of hell because of invasion of their way of life. It makes absolutely no sense for them to go from a way of life that seems to have worked in deep relationship with nature to a way of life that in their experience caused unimaginable pain.

I really deeply struggle with this. I would appreciate an understanding of the basic question I wrote above and also the situation that I outlined below the question. Thank you kindly.

Much speculation about things we have no control over, will ultimately lead us to anxiety and despair.

He is the Judge of all.

He knows the hearts of men, and will Judge each of us in righteousness, on that Day.


What is certainly frightening is those who know Christ, who know the way of righteousness and have escaped the dreadful corruption of the world through Christ, but choose to go back to a life of sin.


For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22

• For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

JLB

 

[stovebolts]

JLB ,

In regard to those who have never heard the Gospel, what do you make of these verses?

Romans 2:12 NIV All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Emphasis on verse 15.... How does this juxtapose with this verse.

Jer 31:33b NIV
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.

This indicates to me that these spoken of know the Way.

 

[JLB]

Emphasis on verse 15.... How does this juxtapose with this verse.

This is Paul, making a case for Gentiles, who are in the New Covenant, who are not keeping the law of Moses, in which the Jews are requiring.

Paul lays out the legal argument from the perspective of a Pharisee, in which his case will be understood by his fellow countrymen.


Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. Romans 2:1


Verse 15, uses language that identifies a person who is in the New Covenant.


who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them). Romans 2:15


Compare with Jeremiah 31:33


But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Jeremiah 31:33


The Point:

Paul is referring to people who have heard the Gospel, not people who have never heard the Gospel.





JLB

 

[john darling]

This indicates to me that these spoken of know the Way.

Several people have quoted the verse where Jesus proclaims that he is the way, the truth, and the life. Most people these days interpret this verse as being a pointer toward religious affiliation; that Jesus is a religious figure and if you want to be right with him you must jump through the proper hoops like water baptism, church attendance, recitation of special prayers, and performance of any number of other religious observances.

But Jesus was not promoting just another religious organization. His way is based on the principles of the Kingdom of Heaven, meaning that the way of the Kingdom of Heaven is to practice the values of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Will Jesus say to someone who loves his neighbor, "Sorry, but even though you've done what I asked you to do, you didn't say that you're doing it in my name so you go to hell"? That's the kind of thing we humans would say, because we love group affiliation and outward appearances.

Something like this happened with the disciples, when they complained to Jesus about some guy who was preaching the message of Jesus, but doing so outside the presumed authority the disciples believed they had. In other words, because he wasn't a part of their group they believed he must be wrong and tried to stop him. But Jesus rebuked them for it, suggesting that anyone who supports his message is right with him.

Anyone who shows love for his neighbor, judges himself before he judges others, helps the poor, keeps his fasting and charity-giving a secret, and teaches others to do the same is practicing the "way" of the Kingdom of Heaven even if he does not recognize it as such.

 

[JLB]

Anyone who shows love for his neighbor, judges himself before he judges others, helps the poor, keeps his fasting and charity-giving a secret, and teaches others to do the same is practicing the "way" of the Kingdom of Heaven even if he does not recognize it as such.

Amen.

 

[WIP]

This particular forum is for non-believers to ask questions and site members to answer. Discussion should be directed toward answering the OP's questions. If you wish to continue this discussion, please start a new thread in the appropriate forum.

 

[stovebolts]

This particular forum is for non-believers to ask questions and site members to answer. Discussion should be directed toward answering the OP's questions. If you wish to continue this discussion, please start a new thread in the appropriate forum.

Thanks for the reminder!
I think this topic could really bring some value since it's been brought back to life. So, I moved it to the Bible Study forum for continued discussion.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm suggesting that acceptance of the gospel is more than just claiming to have some association with Jesus. Jesus himself asked his own supposed followers, "Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"? He also says, "Many will say to me 'Lord, Lord' but only those who follow my teachings will be saved".

Jesus told us to love our neighbors. I doubt he will reject someone who loves his neighbor but does not say "Lord, Lord".

If you look at the parable of the wise and foolish builders at the end of the sermon on the mount from Mt 7 you'll see that both the wise and the foolish man heard the teachings of Jesus, but only the wise man acted on those teachings.

I believe Jesus is making it clear that in God's eyes he does not car what theological position we take. He cares about whether we respond to his spirit. Since God is the source of all love, it is impossible for anyone to practice love outside of response to God's spirit, whether they acknowledge it as God's spirit or not.

This means we need to be pretty careful about deciding who is saved and who isn't. Jesus said we'll be judged the same as we judge others, so if we judge that the love someone shows isn't enough just because he does not follow the correct theological formula we think he should follow, then perhaps God will judge that our love isn't good enough, either.

What we think doesn't matter if it doesn't line up with truth found in the scriptures. It has nothing to do with man's theological view of their own doctrines.

2 Timothy 2:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

If we are told to turn away from them don't you think God already has turned away from them.

Worldly love is having a form only, but leaves out the relationship with Christ to know the will of the Father and to obey all His commands and statures.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Their house fell as their foundation was not in Christ even though they heard the Gospel, but yet rejected it. Good works do not get us a place in the kingdom of God as Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[stovebolts]

Paul is referring to people who have heard the Gospel, not people who have never heard the Gospel.

JLB

In not so sure myself. I agree that Paul is talking to gentile Christians and comparing them to Jewish Christians who are moving back into Rome, but in chapter 1 he states that "since the beginning" and rattles of a trimmed version of cleft notes from Genesis 3 forward. Chapter 2 starts by saying, You... And associates those whome he is writing to with those in chapter 1. He then brings in the Jews with God's law, and associates them with those in chapter 1. He then sums everyone into a single group from the time of Adam forward and says, Romans 3:23 niv for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

if the above verse only applied to Jews, Jewish Christians and gentile Christians, then wouldn't we only apply Romans 2:11 to the same three groups which seem to say God favored every group in the world except the three groups mentioned?

 

[JLB]

but in chapter 1 he states that "since the beginning"

We can breakdown and summarize Chapter 1 if you like.


Basically he saying we are without excuse.


Those who live to serve evil and unnatural inclinations are doomed.



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

NIV Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

When I read these verses, I hear Paul recounting all the sin in the world from Adams disobedience, the death of Able, Pharoah as a God, and all the cultures with their Pantheon's and corrupt ways. Chapter 2 associates the Romans as belonging to this group with their Pantheon's etc. Paul will also associate Jews into this group since they did the same as the gentiles, even though they had instructions on rightfulness.

 

[john darling]

2 Timothy 2:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

If we are told to turn away from them don't you think God already has turned away from them.

Worldly love is having a form only, but leaves out the relationship with Christ to know the will of the Father and to obey all His commands and statures.

Hi FHG. I think we may be talking past one another here. I have no problem with the verse you posted, but in my post I was referring to people who do love their neighbor, but have not heard the name of Jesus (which was the issue the OP asked about).

I'm also not sure what you mean about worldly love. I guess you mean something like fake love. Again, that is different to what I've suggested.

God is the source of all love; he is the creator of love. That means no one can show love without interaction with his spirit. This means we have a choice to make; do we say a person who shows love to his neighbor is showing fake love because he does not hold the proper theological view we think he should, OR do we say that he is responding to God's spirit even though he himself does not realize he is doing so?

I would strongly recommend against saying a person's love for his neighbor is fake love just because he does not say something like, "Jesus is lord".

Remember the parable of the good Samaritan; he wasn't a Christian or a Jew. He didn't perform any profession of loyalty to God or Jesus. Actually, he's compared to people who did have the correct theology; a Levite and a priest. These two people clearly did not have a right relationship with God despite their correct theology. It is the Samaritan, the one who showed love to his neighbor, who is the hero of the story. This lesson would be just as valid if you substitute him with a guy in the deep jungle who never heard of Jesus; if he shows love to his neighbor he will be right with God.

 

[JLB]

NIV Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

When I read these verses, I hear Paul recounting all the sin in the world from Adams disobedience, the death of Able, Pharoah as a God, and all the cultures with their Pantheon's and corrupt ways. Chapter 2 associates the Romans as belonging to this group with their Pantheon's etc. Paul will also associate Jews into this group since they did the same as the gentiles, even though they had instructions on rightfulness.

I think we are seeing the same thing from different perspectives.


Paul’s diatribe against the hypocrisy of the Jewish mindset in Rome begins, as you pointed out, in verse 18 of chapter 1, and culminates at the end of chapter 2.


The entire book of Romans is Paul expounding on the principle of faith: the obedience of faith. Obedience to the faith.


He opens in chapter 1 and closes in chapter 16 with these phrases.


Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,
Romans 1:5


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:26 KJV



JLB

 

[OzSpen]

To be honest it is derived from:-
Matt5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. &
romans2: 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But this is imposible so it is pointless to try.

WM,

In #75, you stated: 'The requirement to earn ones salvation is 100% perfection from the cradle to the grave'.

Now you state that perfection to attain immortality and eternal life 'is impossible so it is pointless to try'.

Do you mean that because 100% perfection is impossible for any human being to attain, then it is pointless seeking eternal life? Is that what you mean? If not, I'd appreciate your clarification.

Oz

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi FHG. I think we may be talking past one another here. I have no problem with the verse you posted, but in my post I was referring to people who do love their neighbor, but have not heard the name of Jesus (which was the issue the OP asked about).

I'm also not sure what you mean about worldly love. I guess you mean something like fake love. Again, that is different to what I've suggested.

God is the source of all love; he is the creator of love. That means no one can show love without interaction with his spirit. This means we have a choice to make; do we say a person who shows love to his neighbor is showing fake love because he does not hold the proper theological view we think he should, OR do we say that he is responding to God's spirit even though he himself does not realize he is doing so?

I would strongly recommend against saying a person's love for his neighbor is fake love just because he does not say something like, "Jesus is lord".

Remember the parable of the good Samaritan; he wasn't a Christian or a Jew. He didn't perform any profession of loyalty to God or Jesus. Actually, he's compared to people who did have the correct theology; a Levite and a priest. These two people clearly did not have a right relationship with God despite their correct theology. It is the Samaritan, the one who showed love to his neighbor, who is the hero of the story. This lesson would be just as valid if you substitute him with a guy in the deep jungle who never heard of Jesus; if he shows love to his neighbor he will be right with God.

There is a wordily love that is self centered as in look what "I" have done for others that makes one boastful as they puff themselves as they are prideful. Then there is the love of God found in us that we never let our left hand know what the right hand has done for the love of others, Matthew 6:1-4. It's like the sheep and goats in Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[john darling]

Then there is the love of God found in us that we never let our left hand know what the right hand has done for the love of others, Matthew 6:1-4. It's like the sheep and goats in Matthew 25:31-46.

Hi FHG. Thanks for clarifying that. This is the context which my previous comments are based on; the ideal that someone can show love for his neighbor without knowing the name of Jesus, and still be right with God because of that neighbor-loving.

Notice in the parable of the sheep and goats you quoted, that the sheep did not even realize they were loving God by loving their neighbor. They asked, "When did we help you"?

I think this is an inspiring aspect of God's grace.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi FHG. Thanks for clarifying that. This is the context which my previous comments are based on; the ideal that someone can show love for his neighbor without knowing the name of Jesus, and still be right with God because of that neighbor-loving.

Notice in the parable of the sheep and goats you quoted, that the sheep did not even realize they were loving God by loving their neighbor. They asked, "When did we help you"?

I think this is an inspiring aspect of God's grace.

You are speaking of work based salvation. No one, even if they love their neighbor can work for their salvation as it's a free gift from God, Ephesians 2:8-10. One can not be right with God unless they repent of their sin as everyone has sinned and fallen short of His glory. It's through the Spiritual rebirth that Jesus was teaching Nicodemus in John 3:5-7 and what He taught in Romans 10:9, 10 of God's salvation as we confess Jesus as our Lord and Savior. If we do not confess that He is then we are none of His own.

 

[john darling]

Romans 10:9, 10 of God's salvation as we confess Jesus as our Lord and Savior. If we do not confess that He is then we are none of His own.

Hi FHG. The conetxt was not about people boasting, or about people who say the correct words. The topic is about people who practice the values of the kingdom of Heaven but who do not know about the name of Jesus, and how Jesus will view such

Here's a video which I think does a good job of dealing with the Romans 10 verse you quoted. Let me know what you think.

 

[Who Me]

Do you mean that because 100% perfection is impossible for any human being to attain, then it is pointless seeking eternal life? Is that what you mean? If not, I'd appreciate your clarification.

If one is trying to earn there salvation they have to obey the 10C from birth to death 100% of the time.
Both the OT and the NT tell us that we are to be perfect as the Lord our God is perfect.
It is not possible to have done this from birth, or while we are asleep etc.
So seeking to earn, to deserve salvation is pointless. It cannot be done and as Paul teaches us the law convicts us of sin and condems us.

We are save because of God's grace in sending Jesus.

 

[Who Me]

This, is the root problem with the idea of saved by grace alone.

If people can see how willful disobedience to Jesus on the basis that we can't do it is derived of the devil, then a lot of other Bible truths will become clear.

In peace

If Bill Gates was to offer you his mansion, together with a maintence packages, how do you think he would feel if you started to take out a mortgage to pay him for that mansion?

It is even more rediculous to think that our filthy rags can be pleasing to God and that they would pay any part of the value of Jesus.