If someone is absolutely perfect, could there be something they don't know?

[Jake]

Well, by the very definition an omniscient person would know everything. That's the definition of "omniscient".

By the very definition an omnipresent person is everywhere. That's the definition of "omnipresent".

I fail to see why you even asked this... though I have no doubt there was a reason. So why did you even ask that? No offense, but I just reckon there has to be some sort of reason or catch to your question.

I agree Pard, it's not like D didn't know the definitions of those words to begin with? So why state the obvious?

 

[rzr]

Set "perfect" aside. If someone is omniscient, can there be something they don't know?

On a side note, if someone is omnipresent, is there somewhere that they either can't be or choose not to be?

If you answer yes to the questions you ask, then it would be a contradiction to the definitions of what it means to say "omnipresent" or "omniscient"..

It would be like saying an object can be perfectly round and perfectly square at the same time.

All of this talk of omnipotence follows via perfect-being theology and there are limits of perfect-being theology.....

But when it comes to God, words such as perfect being, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient fall way short in trying to define Him........but it is fun to play with the philosophy.

To know God (I AM) is to know Him but trying to define Him based on our schooled reasoning is like trying to teach my dog to reason calculus.

So what exactly are you leading your questions up to...???????

 

[Elijah674]

Given the assumption that a being is absolutely perfect, could there be something that is unknown to them?

Lucifer was 'created' & perfect at that stage. He was not 'MATURELY' perfect or he would not have fallen. But God leaves NO Doubt that he was Perfect in the day that he was created. Eze. 28 (if one see it this way?)

And God creates NO Flawed material! (such as 'fermented' wine!;)) So when Adam was created, he to was pronounced 'very goood'! (PERFECT)
But as with Luciffer, [he was not MATURELY PERFECT]. That is because at the start with all being a 'babe' with free choice, maturity perfect is gained over time for developement.

Even in Rom. 8:1 we see this 'perfection's' starting point only, (with at present) NO CONDEMNATION when the required Born Again life begins. And then we see verse 14 of going forward in being Led of the Holy Ghost if one will be. And the end result is MATURE Perfection. (one way or the other) Note that being 'Led', is not being forced or being robot'tized! (new word?;))

And some verses to ponder for that free choice?? Phil. 4:13 + 2 Cor. 12:9, Dan. 12:4 + Hosea 4:6 for our maturing duty of progression.;)

--Elijah

PS: One thing that is important & is not understood very well, is that chirdren make mistakes on their way to maturity, and although they still are perfect 'while' growing, (Heb. 5 & Heb. 6) we are as they. But yes, Maturing is REQUIRED by God's Finished product.Nah. 1:9

 

[handy]

D, I think I understand what you were trying to get at with your OP and yes, someone can be absolutely perfect and yet not know everything.

Let's say I have a two lights, one with a 100 watt bulb and one with a 15 watt bulb. Both lights work "perfectly", meaning that when I turn on the switch they light up. Now, if I were to put the 15 watt light on my front or back porch, it would be horrible because I wouldn't have enough light to see what I need to see. However, if I were to put the 100 watt light on the piano and leave it on all night long, my kids would have trouble sleeping because it would be way too bright in their rooms from the glare of the lamp. I use the different strength bulbs for different jobs, even though both are essentially the same thing, both are light bulbs. Both are perfect bulbs, but the bulb on the porch has a different function than the bulb on the piano.

As with all earthly illustrations regarding God, this one won't be sufficient to truly explain why the Father knows something the Son doesn't know, but as an illustration it should be somewhat illuminating...(ok, bad pun :D ).

The Son is perfect in every way. He perfectly loves the Father, He perfectly loves us, He perfectly kept all the Father's commandments, He perfectly taught us, He gave His perfect life as a substitutionary sacrifice for our sins.

However, in His perfection, He "does not know the day nor the hour". Only the Father knows that.

Does this mean that the Son is not perfect, or more still not God?

No, not at all. This simply illustrates the triune nature of God. The Father, the Son and the Spirit are all One: One in purpose, One in nature, One in identity. But Father, Son and Spirit all have different ways in which God's purposes are accomplished. The Father wills, the Son obeys. The Father knows the "day and the hour", the Son is poised to come when the Father sends Him.

It is not an indication of Jesus' lack of perfection or lack of divinity that even He does not know the day nor the hour. And, rather than give Harold Camping a call, He is willing to wait until the Father sends Him, for that is one of the ways that the Son proves His perfection, His willingness and ability to perfectly obey the Father.

Which in of itself proves He is God, for who would be able to perfectly obey God, but God Himself?

I mean, do you know of anyone who is perfectly willing and able to obey everything God commands of us?

 

[Deavonreye]

I wanted to put "perfect" aside. True, Harold Camping's silly date [today, . . . of which I am HIGHLY curious as to how people would follow this guy, believe him, . . . all the while, completely disregard their own holy book, and at the same time, assuming they truly believe the bible was divinely inspired by their god with no error and in all truth, . . . choosing to believe Camping's date would prove their own god a liar] was the orgin of this thread, but it goes well beyond that.

That's why I wanted to focus on "omnipresence" and "omniscience" [which in this case, could the omniscent Jesus be unaware of an event as paramount as "his second coming"?]. It goes deeper than this, but I'm not interested in debating various scenarios, just the mechanics of how a being really COULD be omniscient.

As for "Omnipresent", if there is a place that an omniscient being either can't be, or chooses NOT to be, then that being [by definition] cannot be "omnipresent".

I will be gone for a good chunk of the day. I will look at the responses next time I am able to get on.

 

[rzr]

I wanted to put "perfect" aside. True, Harold Camping's silly date [today, . . . of which I am HIGHLY curious as to how people would follow this guy, believe him, . . . all the while, completely disregard their own holy book, and at the same time, assuming they truly believe the bible was divinely inspired by their god with no error and in all truth, . . . choosing to believe Camping's date would prove their own god a liar] was the orgin of this thread, but it goes well beyond that.

That's why I wanted to focus on "omnipresence" and "omniscience" [which in this case, could the omniscent Jesus be unaware of an event as paramount as "his second coming"?]. It goes deeper than this, but I'm not interested in debating various scenarios, just the mechanics of how a being really COULD be omniscient.

As for "Omnipresent", if there is a place that an omniscient being either can't be, or chooses NOT to be, then that being [by definition] cannot be "omnipresent".

I will be gone for a good chunk of the day. I will look at the responses next time I am able to get on.

Read up
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy ... - Google Books

 

[handy]

D, whereas I believe that God is omniscient, I do not believe that the Son is. The Father fulfills the role of omniscience. Also, while I believe that God is omnipresent, again, I don't believe the Son is. The Holy Spirit fulfills the role of omnipresence.

We can say that God is omniscient, because the Father is omniscient and the Father is God.

We can say that God is omnipresent because the Spirit is and the Spirit is God.

The Son is God, just as fully as the Father and the Spirit is God. The Son though fulfills a different role. This is a voluntary act upon His part. The Scriptures state that Jesus "emptied" Himself and "humbled" Himself, so that the purposes of God could be accomplished.

This is significant. He can only empty Himself or humble Himself if he has the abilities in the first place.

Again, an illustration:

Let's say that there is a charity that needs money raised. Let's say I have a brand new Cadillac convertible that I decide to give to them to auction off. It is mine, I can freely keep it, or give it away, and I choose to give it away because I want to see the charity accomplish it's purpose.

Now, if I don't actually own the Caddy in the first place, I cannot give it up, can I?

This is what the Scriptures are getting at with the Son. He cannot of emptied Himself of qualities and attributes that He did not have in the first place.

 

[Deavonreye]

I was able to get back on for a bit longer today.

I don't want to get into a theology [trinity] that I don't agree with, nor ever did when I was in the church.

Again, I don't want to get into specifics here, but there are places where even god wasn't omniscient. As for the issue with omnipresence, there IS a place where it is said to be devoid of god. The Christian version of "Hell". So, the Christain god cannot be truly omnipresent.

Here's my point. It is quite possible that, in order to make something MUCH greater [to the extent of infinite greatness], humans have placed upon their deity characteristics that may not even make sense in reality, and may even be paradoxical, just so that the level of "mystery" is one that "cannot be understood by mere humans". I'm not saying that there isn't any deities out there. I have no evidence for them, but cannot be absolute about that. I just personally think that humans have an ingrained need to look for perfection [because we all have flaws] before we feel the desire to "worship a being". However, having said this, who's to say any deity ["perfect" or not] would even WANT to be worshipped, especially if they are being aclaimed for a trait they don't even possess.

Just my thoughts on this. You all are free to choose your own beliefs, of course, just wanting to express this line of reasoning.

 

[Elijah674]

;)

D, whereas I believe that God is omniscient, I do not believe that the Son is. The Father fulfills the role of omniscience. Also, while I believe that God is omnipresent, again, I don't believe the Son is. The Holy Spirit fulfills the role of omnipresence.

We can say that God is omniscient, because the Father is omniscient and the Father is God.

We can say that God is omnipresent because the Spirit is and the Spirit is God.

The Son is God, just as fully as the Father and the Spirit is God. The Son though fulfills a different role. This is a voluntary act upon His part. The Scriptures state that Jesus "emptied" Himself and "humbled" Himself, so that the purposes of God could be accomplished.

This is significant. He can only empty Himself or humble Himself if he has the abilities in the first place.

Again, an illustration:

Let's say that there is a charity that needs money raised. Let's say I have a brand new Cadillac convertible that I decide to give to them to auction off. It is mine, I can freely keep it, or give it away, and I choose to give it away because I want to see the charity accomplish it's purpose.

Now, if I don't actually own the Caddy in the first place, I cannot give it up, can I?

This is what the Scriptures are getting at with the Son. He cannot of emptied Himself of qualities and attributes that He did not have in the first place.

;) A lost of talk without the Eternal Word! Who was the Eternal Word?
But perhaps you just did not explain it as you see it, or as I see it being said? You say:
'The Holy Spirit fulfills the role of omnipresence.' So that sounds like you think of just TWO making up the Godhead?

And 'i' have no problem with you believing whatever you want to, just trying to get it straight what it is that you believe?

And the verse on Christ not knowing the day or hour of His coming, do you think that that is a remark that is not just relating to that time recorded??? Surely the second Adam could not use His Christ/God/Son qualities and still be called the second Adam could He?

But your posting on 'more' maturity was pretty much as the Bible has it 'me' thinks.

--Elijah

 

[Jake]

I was able to get back on for a bit longer today.

I don't want to get into a theology [trinity] that I don't agree with, nor ever did when I was in the church.

Again, I don't want to get into specifics here, but there are places where even god wasn't omniscient. As for the issue with omnipresence, there IS a place where it is said to be devoid of god. The Christian version of "Hell". So, the Christain god cannot be truly omnipresent.

Here's my point. It is quite possible that, in order to make something MUCH greater [to the extent of infinite greatness], humans have placed upon their deity characteristics that may not even make sense in reality, and may even be paradoxical, just so that the level of "mystery" is one that "cannot be understood by mere humans". I'm not saying that there isn't any deities out there. I have no evidence for them, but cannot be absolute about that. I just personally think that humans have an ingrained need to look for perfection [because we all have flaws] before we feel the desire to "worship a being". However, having said this, who's to say any deity ["perfect" or not] would even WANT to be worshipped, especially if they are being aclaimed for a trait they don't even possess.

Just my thoughts on this. You all are free to choose your own beliefs, of course, just wanting to express this line of reasoning.

Your statements are not true and you speak of something which you know nothing about, you are drawing conclusions from your own carnal mind. Spiritual and carnal don't mix and your post reveals this truth.
I mean no offense, just speaking truth.

 

[Deavonreye]

Your statements are not true and you speak of something which you know nothing about, you are drawing conclusions from your own carnal mind. Spiritual and carnal don't mix and your post reveals this truth.
I mean no offense, just speaking truth.

How would you know if my statements are "not true"? If all you have to go on is "spiritual discernment", there is ample evidence that each denomination's "spiritual discernment" is different than anothers. NO one has any monopoly on any deities actual characteristics, no matter how "sure" you are of your doctrinal stance.

 

[jasoncran]

we alll operate by faith. i cant make you believe in the bible and you can neither convince me that God doesnt exist.

pointless to argue endlessly on that.

 

[rzr]

Deavonreye! Why do you waste your time? I pointed you in the right direction for your quest!.:yes

 

[Jake]

How would you know if my statements are "not true"? If all you have to go on is "spiritual discernment", there is ample evidence that each denomination's "spiritual discernment" is different than anothers. NO one has any monopoly on any deities actual characteristics, no matter how "sure" you are of your doctrinal stance.

Only God can open your eyes, D.

 

[Sinthesis]

Read up people.

Jewish Wedding Customs and their place in Jesus' teachings

"Before leaving the young man would announce, " I am going to prepare a place for you ", and "I will return for you when it is ready". The usual practice was for the young man to return to his father's house and build a honeymoon room there. This is what is symbolized by the chuppah or canopy which is characteristic of Jewish weddings. He was not allowed to skimp on the work and had to get his father's approval before he could consider it ready for his bride. If asked the date of his wedding he would have to reply, "Only my father knows."

Yes, Jesus is a funny guy.:D

 

[childeye]

D, I think I understand what you were trying to get at with your OP and yes, someone can be absolutely perfect and yet not know everything.

Let's say I have a two lights, one with a 100 watt bulb and one with a 15 watt bulb. Both lights work "perfectly", meaning that when I turn on the switch they light up. Now, if I were to put the 15 watt light on my front or back porch, it would be horrible because I wouldn't have enough light to see what I need to see. However, if I were to put the 100 watt light on the piano and leave it on all night long, my kids would have trouble sleeping because it would be way too bright in their rooms from the glare of the lamp. I use the different strength bulbs for different jobs, even though both are essentially the same thing, both are light bulbs. Both are perfect bulbs, but the bulb on the porch has a different function than the bulb on the piano.

As with all earthly illustrations regarding God, this one won't be sufficient to truly explain why the Father knows something the Son doesn't know, but as an illustration it should be somewhat illuminating...(ok, bad pun :D ).

The Son is perfect in every way. He perfectly loves the Father, He perfectly loves us, He perfectly kept all the Father's commandments, He perfectly taught us, He gave His perfect life as a substitutionary sacrifice for our sins.

However, in His perfection, He "does not know the day nor the hour". Only the Father knows that.

Does this mean that the Son is not perfect, or more still not God?

No, not at all. This simply illustrates the triune nature of God. The Father, the Son and the Spirit are all One: One in purpose, One in nature, One in identity. But Father, Son and Spirit all have different ways in which God's purposes are accomplished. The Father wills, the Son obeys. The Father knows the "day and the hour", the Son is poised to come when the Father sends Him.

It is not an indication of Jesus' lack of perfection or lack of divinity that even He does not know the day nor the hour. And, rather than give Harold Camping a call, He is willing to wait until the Father sends Him, for that is one of the ways that the Son proves His perfection, His willingness and ability to perfectly obey the Father.

Which in of itself proves He is God, for who would be able to perfectly obey God, but God Himself?

I mean, do you know of anyone who is perfectly willing and able to obey everything God commands of us?

I loved this commentary on perfection. Thank you very much. Your last question is tricky however. Perhaps we are all perfectly willing but not perfectly able to obey God. Then again, maybe we're not even able to will to without a perfect Image of God. Or perhaps I'm out thinking myself.

 

[childeye]

How would you know if my statements are "not true"? If all you have to go on is "spiritual discernment", there is ample evidence that each denomination's "spiritual discernment" is different than anothers. NO one has any monopoly on any deities actual characteristics, no matter how "sure" you are of your doctrinal stance.

The fact is we all must believe something as true. The terms knowledge and ignorance have no significance otherwise for they are realtive to Truth. Therefore Truth exists and therefore so does God. Since God is a Spiritual discernment and is equated with the Spirit of Love, we also know He exists since we all have experienced His presence in our beings. Faith is about do you trust Him.

 

[rzr]

You people bewilder me! Seems to me that those who have ears do not listen and those that have eyes do not see...... And all of this over a stupid premise! Mr. D should be fish food like Bin Ladin...like the new drink--two shots and a splash......

How is it that " Good Christian" people should be! A splash!

Turns my stomach....

Dont get me Wrong.... Usama was the scurge of the earth... But what makes you any different? We are all Gods children, right?

Mr. D is still searching... If D is an intelligent man, then he will find the path.....But for myself, I could care less. My truth as been spoken-- my kness are sore!

 

[Jake]

You people bewilder me! Seems to me that those who have ears do not listen and those that have eyes do not see...... And all of this over a stupid premise! Mr. D should be fish food like Bin Ladin...like the new drink--two shots and a splash......

How is it that " Good Christian" people should be! A splash!

Turns my stomach....

Dont get me Wrong.... Usama was the scurge of the earth... But what makes you any different? We are all Gods children, right?

No, actually we are not all God's children - only those who are believers are His children. Osama a child of God - nope - he is part of the body of the anti-christ.

As far as the rest of your post, not a clue of what you are even talking about. :

 

[handy]

I loved this commentary on perfection. Thank you very much. Your last question is tricky however. Perhaps we are all perfectly willing but not perfectly able to obey God. Then again, maybe we're not even able to will to without a perfect Image of God. Or perhaps I'm out thinking myself.

Thank you for your kind words, childeye...God is so gracious to give us His word and His Spirit to unpack His word for us. If there was ever a reason to believe that perfection is impossible for all but God, it would be in how we are so unable to fully understand even with the word and the Spirit.

Regarding the question, I have to admit that I am certainly not perfectly willing to obey all that God commands of me. Through His grace, I am much more willing than I would be otherwise, but perfection...not there. Yet! ;)