If someone said to you they want to become a Christian

[smaller]

Well, of course, what enslaved sinner wouldn't like a sugar coated gospel that strips out the obligation to resist the temptations of the flesh.

And what bloated self centered egomanic can resist the temptation to make themselves sinless and not like other men? Luke 18:11, Romans 3:9.

 

[smaller]

Changed you into what?

You may not have heard. I DIED. Col. 3:3.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

IF you're telling potential believers they are or can make themselves sinless, I'd suggest you'd be lying through your teeth.

I've made it abundantly clear that is NOT what I'm saying:

this doesn't mean sinless perfection (nobody thinks that)

Let's see if it sinks in this time or if you'll continue to hear the argument for 'sinless perfection'.

It's not my problem if some believers get suckered into delusions about the facts.

Please, name names. Who are these people that think they are perfectly sinless in Christ? I've never met one.

I think the problem is you perceive their belief about themselves to be that, not that they actually think that. I gots the feeling that the core of this matter for you is you got disciplined by a church in accordance with 1 Corinthians 5:3-13 NASB, and you didn't take it well and you lashed back by calling them lying, self righteous hypocrites formulating this hyper-grace doctrine of your's to rationalize your own behavior and condemn theirs.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, preach on if you think believers are made sinless. I however am pretty well NOT interested in playing that lie like the phony in Luke 18:11. Lying hypocrisy is REAL and a lot of "believers" fall therein.

I think they'll be saved anyway, but they will probably get an eye opener when they find out on the other end of judgment that they were REALLY no better than any other sinner. Romans 3:9.

What about these believers:

"15“But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance." (Luke 8:15 NASB)

"he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2 NASB)

"we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope" (Romans 3:3-4 NASB)

Is their fate going to be what you say it is going to be? Are they going to find out that fourth type of soil really isn't different than 2nd or 3rd kind of soil (according to you there is no such thing as fourth kind of soil), Jesus was lying. And those who have suffered and no longer live their lives for sin really aren't doing that--Peter was lying? And Paul was delusional when he spoke of how our tribulations teach us patience and godly character (James, too--James 1:3 NASB)?

According to you, Jesus, Paul, James, and Peter are all delusional. Obviously, I disagree.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't personally think the evil present with any of us is any better than the evil present with anyone else myself. Romans 7:21. You may think that is so. I don't.

Generally speaking, no, it's not.
What's different is the maturity of the person engaging the temptations of the flesh common to man. Some have suffered and grown to the places Jesus, James, Peter, and Paul speak about in my previous post. But you are sure that is a delusion and that they are lying.

So I don't waste my time trying to "justify" myself or those I witness to because there is no justification for the evil present with any of us available or even on the table.

That's why we are SAVED BY THE GRACE AND MERCY OF GOD IN CHRIST.

The grace of God was given you to have victory over sin, not live in it with abashed, unrepentant, unsorrowful complecancy.

"11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age" (Titus 2:11-12 NASB)

Apparently, grace is teaching you something else. Where does it say in the Bible that grace is a license to languish in our unrepentant sin and we still be good with God? I see the exact opposite. Grace is for our rescue from the slavery and bondage of sin so we won't be condemned with the world.

Evil present with us ain't getting a foothold in the door, contrary to what many think.

Which is why we need to separate ourselves from evil through confession and repentance through God's grace via the Holy Spirit. If you keep evil around you will be condemned with it by the wrath of God:
"5For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."
7Therefore do not be partakers with them" (Ephesians 5:5-6 NASB)

But you teach being comfortable and complacent with evil, thinking that even though you do that the evil only goes to the fiery place while you go to heavenly places. Not true at all. Potential converts need to know this. They need to weight the costs and see if they are prepared to seek God in giving up evil in order to not be condemned with it. If they aren't ready then they need to go back to the world until they are, not come into the church and become the very hypocrites the world loves to condemn the church for (and which Paul says we are to expel from among us).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And what bloated self centered egomanic can resist the temptation to make themselves sinless and not like other men? Luke 18:11, Romans 3:9.

Unjustified unbelievers, of course. Like the Pharisee in the story you cite.

I have yet to meet or talk to a Christian who thinks he is sinless and not like other men. God's discipline that he faithfully administers to his sons and daughters makes sure no Christian thinks he or she is sinlessly perfect. It is those who are NOT sons of God that do not get disciplined and who are apt to be ignorant of their sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You may not have heard. I DIED. Col. 3:3.

Died to sin?

"4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:4 NASB bold, italics, and underline mine)

Congratulations.
Welcome to the sinlessly perfect, lying, self-righteous, hypocrites club.

But, I suspect 'death in Christ' means something else to you. My guess is you probably see it as a death to being responsible and accountable for active, unrepentant, sin in the flesh. Correct?

That's not a gospel to be shared. Because it's a false gospel.

 

[smaller]

Really Jethro? 5 response posts?

I'll remain with the fact that indwelling sin/evil present do what they do regardless of whatever choices anyone thinks they make about indwelling sin/evil present and leave it at that.

 

[OzSpen]

OzSpen,
To receive God's imputed righteousness is what is known as the Atonement.

That is not the case.

Justification is 'an instantaneous legal act of God in which he (1) thinks of our sins as forgiven and Christ's righteousness as belonging to us, and (2) declares us to be righteous in his sight' (Grudem 1999:488).

This is demonstrated in Scriptures such as Rom 3;20, 26, 28; 5:1: 8:30; 10:4, 10; Gal 2:16; 3:24.

John Murray distinguished between regeneration and justification:

Regeneration is an act of God in us; justification is a judgment of God with respect to us. The distinction is like that of the distinction between the act of a surgeon and the act of a judge. The surgeon, when he removes an inward cancer, does something in us. That is not what a judge does—he gives a verdict regarding our judicial status. If we are innocent he declares accordingly (John Murray 1955, Justification).

That's what God does in justification. God, the judge, declares the one who has faith in Jesus Christ to be righteous before God's law. He is declared just.

What, then, is atonement? While there have been quite a few theories of the meaning of atonement, it can be boiled down to 'the work Christ did in his life and death to earn our salvation' (Grudem 1999:480).

See Isa 53:6, 12; 2 Cor 5:21; Gal 3:13; Heb 9:28; and 1 Pet 2:24. Then add the necessity of propitiation (appeasing the wrath of God) and we see why Jesus had to die for the sins of the world in the way he did. See 1 John 2:2.

Oz

Works consulted
Grudem, W 1999. Bible Doctrine: Essential teachings of the Christian faith. Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity Press.

 

[Kidron]

Justification is 'an instantaneous legal act of God in which he (1) thinks of our sins as forgiven
What, then, is atonement?.

There is an issue with how you are perceiving how God perceives the forgiven.
You are classifying it as "thinks",.......that God "thinks" about it, as ....
But this is not correct.
God does not Think we are redeemed, but rather He accepts that we are recreated as born again, based on the fact that its the truth.
We ARE Born into the status of "Son of God".
This is not a "think", this is a Fact that is produced by redemption.
It is the end result of the blood atonement being applied to us, our situation, our sin.
And the reason is, He has LITERALLY provided Himself on a Cross to eternally accomplish what you say he "thinks".
He did more then think it, OzSpen ... God actually accomplished it......or as God said from the Cross....."it is Finished".

Also, this word...... "Atonement".
Lets look at it like this so that we can behold the truth and simplicity of the meaning.

"Atonement".

= at...ONE....ment.

"being made one".....
"one with God".
"in Christ".
"bone of His bone, flesh of His Flesh".
"sealed"
"complete in him"
"body of Christ"
"church"
"joined".

What God accomplished on the Cross allows us to be restored "as one" with Him.
This process of "at ONE ment", puts Jesus in us, and us "in Christ", forever ONE with God.
This is why all believers are "seated in Heavenly places" RIGHT NOW, while also existing in the earth realm in a body.
This is to say, we are right now translated from darkness to Light, have become Children of the Light, are now IN God's Spiritual Kingdom, while at the same time we are still standing on the earth looking at the sunshine and smelling the flowers & texting on this forum...
= experiencing the earth realm.
We are in both situations, currently, if we are born again.

 

[OzSpen]

There is an issue with how you are perceiving how God perceives the forgiven.
You are classifying it as "thinks",.......that God "thinks" about it, as ....
But this is not correct.
God does not Think we are redeemed, but rather He accepts that we are recreated as born again, based on the fact that its the truth.

Kidron,

Actually, that was a quote about the meaning of justification from evangelical theologian, Dr Wayne Grudem.

Grudem is using 'thinks' in the sense of 'considers', like you are considered guilty or not guilty by a judge in court. This is correct. Justification is a legal entity between the saved sinner and God, the Saviour.

Justification by faith is a legal act performed by God. It is a forensic act by which God acquits the sinner. That's what it means for all Christians. God, as an action in their past, has considered their sins acquitted.

'At-ONE-ment' does not define atonement, as I showed in my post #49.

Oz

 

[Kidron]

Kidron,

Actually, that was a quote about the meaning of justification from evangelical theologian, Dr Wayne Grudem.

Grudem is using 'thinks' in the sense of 'considers', like you are considered guilty or not guilty by a judge in court. This is correct. Justification is a legal entity between the saved sinner and God, the Saviour.

Justification by faith is a legal act performed by God. It is a forensic act by which God acquits the sinner. That's what it means for all Christians. God, as an action in their past, has considered their sins acquitted.

'At-ONE-ment' does not define atonement, as I showed in my post #49.

Oz

Oz,

Its odd that technically you understand the word "acquitted", but you wont accept the correct and eternal meaning of it as per a believer's righteous standing before and with, Almighty God.

Here is what you are trying to do...OzSpen, you are on one hand agreeing that the Blood Atonement does indeed remove the judgement against a sinner regarding their sin, and you are also agreeing that the method used to atone for sins was God's sacrifice.
But, then....... you reverse your postition when you refuse to accept that the consequence of the Act of Redemption is an eternal consequence, and furthermore you reverse and revert back to the false theological presumption that the justification which allows God to impute His righteousness, can be voided by your behavior any given second.
You seem to be making the critical mistake that so many make who "think'" they understand the atonement, redemption, justification, salvation,... but in realty they dont.
People that are clueless regarding Salvation all have one belief in common....They believe that Salvation is Temporary instead of Completed, and this is why they think they can lose it and then get it back by whatever means they believe will accomplish this for themselves.
Here is how you know, oh ye reader, if you have your salvation theology correct or if its a misfire and a meltdown.
Do you think like this????
"I know im saved as long as i __________".""
"I know im saved as long as i don't. _________""
Now, if those are you, then your understanding of GRACE and SALVATION is not God's and in fact is terribly terribly flawed.

Its really very simple......Ither you commit to the understanding that its all of God and none of you that saved you and keeps you saved, or you are committed to the self righteous practice of trying to save yourself by your deeds or your works or your confessing or your clinging to a particular few verses that you have used to prove to yourself that what God started on the cross....... you have to complete for it to be completed, OR KEPT.
And This is why, Oz, that you say a born again Christian "is not sinless", yet you will claim they are justified.
Sorry, but you cant have it both ways, tho you do try and no doubt will continue.
See, all people who reject the truth = the "eternal" consequence of redemption as it is directly applied to maintaining the salvation and eternal security of a person always sound like this...
"Yes, God saved me but then i have to ........Keep myself saved by, ....._______________... """"""

Let me a tell you a truth Oz...
If God's BLOOD and sacrifice and imputed righteousness .....does not of its own accord and its own merit keep you "sinless", then you are not sinless, and you are Lost.
Therefore, you are righteous as God says you are based completely on what He did and provided for you, , or you are sinful as you claim you are, OZ.
But you are not both.
So when you write on Christian forums that "Christians are not sinless", then you are claiming they are sinful, sinners, and those "types" are not in relationship with God, as only the currently sinless - &- the currently righteous, have personal access to the Righteous One.
There is no other possibility.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

you say a born again Christian "is not sinless", yet you will claim they are justified.
Sorry, but you cant have it both ways,

"8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us." (1 John 1:8-10 NASB)

I suspect that you are purposely ignoring the difference between a legal declaration of right standing with God, and how we actually act. And you're doing that to provoke an occasion to rant against those who do not embrace your 'no matter what' hyper-grace doctrine.

OZ's gospel is accurate. Yours is not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"I know im saved as long as i __________".""

believe
(1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

"I know im saved as long as i don't. _________""

regard as unclean the blood by which I was sanctified
(Hebrews 10:29 NASB)

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

Its odd that technically you understand the word "acquitted", but you wont accept the correct and eternal meaning of it as per a believer's righteous standing before and with, Almighty God.

Here is what you are trying to do...OzSpen, you are on one hand agreeing that the Blood Atonement does indeed remove the judgement against a sinner regarding their sin, and you are also agreeing that the method used to atone for sins was God's sacrifice.
But, then....... you reverse your postition when you refuse to accept that the consequence of the Act of Redemption is an eternal consequence, and furthermore you reverse and revert back to the false theological presumption that the justification which allows God to impute His righteousness, can be voided by your behavior any given second.
You seem to be making the critical mistake that so many make who "think'" they understand the atonement, redemption, justification, salvation,... but in realty they dont.
People that are clueless regarding Salvation all have one belief in common....They believe that Salvation is Temporary instead of Completed, and this is why they think they can lose it and then get it back by whatever means they believe will accomplish this for themselves.
Here is how you know, oh ye reader, if you have your salvation theology correct or if its a misfire and a meltdown.
Do you think like this????
"I know im saved as long as i __________".""
"I know im saved as long as i don't. _________""
Now, if those are you, then your understanding of GRACE and SALVATION is not God's and in fact is terribly terribly flawed.

Its really very simple......Ither you commit to the understanding that its all of God and none of you that saved you and keeps you saved, or you are committed to the self righteous practice of trying to save yourself by your deeds or your works or your confessing or your clinging to a particular few verses that you have used to prove to yourself that what God started on the cross....... you have to complete for it to be completed, OR KEPT.
And This is why, Oz, that you say a born again Christian "is not sinless", yet you will claim they are justified.
Sorry, but you cant have it both ways, tho you do try and no doubt will continue.
See, all people who reject the truth = the "eternal" consequence of redemption as it is directly applied to maintaining the salvation and eternal security of a person always sound like this...
"Yes, God saved me but then i have to ........Keep myself saved by, ....._______________... """"""

Let me a tell you a truth Oz...
If God's BLOOD and sacrifice and imputed righteousness .....does not of its own accord and its own merit keep you "sinless", then you are not sinless, and you are Lost.
Therefore, you are righteous as God says you are based completely on what He did and provided for you, , or you are sinful as you claim you are, OZ.
But you are not both.
So when you write on Christian forums that "Christians are not sinless", then you are claiming they are sinful, sinners, and those "types" are not in relationship with God, as only the currently sinless - &- the currently righteous, have personal access to the Righteous One.
There is no other possibility.

Kidron,

There is nothing odd about what I wrote. I'm doing the exegesis of the text to determine the meaning of 'justified' by faith.

Rom 5:1 (SBL Greek) reads: Δικαιωθέντες οὖν ἐκ πίστεως εἰρήνην a]">[a]ἔχομεν πρὸς τὸν θεὸν διὰ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.

The first four words are translated as, 'Having been justified by faith'.

What is the meaning of Δικαιωθέντες, i.e. dikaiwthentes (transliteration), which is a nominative, plural masculine, aorist passive participle, from the verb, dikaiow. It means 'to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent - free, justify (-ier), be righteous' (source).

Because it is the passive voice, it is done by somebody else to the person who becomes a Christian and Rom 5:1 (ESV) tells us who rendered the person just or innocent - God himself.

Dikaiow means 'justify, vindicate, treat as just, acquit, pronounce or treat as righteous, make or set free from' (Brown 1978:3.352).

You wrote here:

If God's BLOOD and sacrifice and imputed righteousness .....does not of its own accord and its own merit keep you "sinless", then you are not sinless, and you are Lost.
Therefore, you are righteous as God says you are based completely on what He did and provided for you, , or you are sinful as you claim you are, OZ.
But you are not both.
So when you write on Christian forums that "Christians are not sinless", then you are claiming they are sinful, sinners, and those "types" are not in relationship with God, as only the currently sinless - &- the currently righteous, have personal access to the Righteous One.

With these statements you have violated a Scripture such as 1 John 1:8 (ESV), 'If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us'. What should the Christian do who sins - yes, commits acts of sin? Read the following verse: 'If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness' (1 John 1:9 ESV). Growing up and maturing in sanctification will require many acts of changing our ways, including confession of our sin to God and to one another (see James 5:16 ESV).

Oz

Works consulted
Brown, C 1978. Dikaiosune. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology. C Brown ed, vol 3, 352-377. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House.

 

[Mike]

This discussion started out as a conversational question in the spirit of the Lounge format, but it quickly became and remained a debate. Therefor, I have moved it to the A&T. Now that it is here, please ensure that you adhere to the Rules for Posting in the A&T.

Thank you.

 

[atpollard]

If someone asked you that question but said they didn't know how to how would you respond, how would you lead them?

Survival tip 101: Find a small local church where they read the bible in the service and you feel loved, and whatever you do, avoid the internet for at least a year. :wink

Hebrews 10:19-25 [NIV]
19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

 

[Wrg1405]

Survival tip 101: Find a small local church where they read the bible in the service and you feel loved, and whatever you do, avoid the internet for at least a year. :wink

Hebrews 10:19-25 [NIV]
19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Very well said.

Find a church that preaches from the bible and a place where you feel loved.

Find a church that accepts you where you are at, not where you should be.

I remember a lovely song,

"Jesus take me as I am. I can no other way, take me deeper into you"

To me that's the starting point. Jesus will take you as you are so will I.

JESUS TAKE ME AS I AM,
I can come no other way.
Take me deeper into You,
Make my flesh life melt away.
Make me like a precious stone,
Crystal clear and finely honed,
Life of Jesus shining through,
Giving glory back to You.

It's not so much how I become a Christian but why we want to.

 

[MarkT]

If someone asked you that question but said they didn't know how to how would you respond, how would you lead them?

Given the following

Romans 10:9-13
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

In the church the sinners prayer says something along the lines of "I know I'm a sinner and I confess that"

Yet if you read when Jesus said that he had to go back to heaven because the Holy Spirit must come to convict the world of its sin, that sin being unbelief in him.

Can anyone lead me to bible verses that say you have to say I'm sorry for my sins in order to become a Christian. When I say sins I mean works of the flesh and not unbelief in Jesus.

I want to put aside the following

1 John 1:9-10
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Not because I think it's wrong, to me it's more relational with God. If I sinned now and died 30s later before confession I'm still think I'm forgiven.

So your sat with someone who asks the question that I have mentioned above.

How would you lead them?

I would tell them to read the Bible, understand, and live - in this day the scripture is fulfilled
Isaiah 29:18
In that day the deaf shall hear the words of a book, and out of their gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind shall see.

This is that day.

 

[OzSpen]

I would tell them to read the Bible, understand, and live - in this day the scripture is fulfilled
Isaiah 29:18
In that day the deaf shall hear the words of a book, and out of their gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind shall see.

This is that day.

Mark,

In my very secular country, that advice would be one of the supreme ways to turn peole right off the Gospel.

I suggest that we approach a secular society like Paul did on the Areopagus (Acts 17:22-34 NLT). He found common ground with them:

'Men of Athens, I notice that you are very religious in every way, 23 for as I was walking along I saw your many shrines. And one of your altars had this inscription on it: ‘To an Unknown God.’ This God, whom you worship without knowing, is the one I’m telling you about'.​

Then he moved towards proclamation of the true God, God's creating human beings, and calling all people everywhere to repent for there is a day of judgment coming.

Paul did not say: Here's a MSS of the Scripture; go away and read it. He engaged in proclamation, starting with establishing common ground. I'm convinced that is where we should begin also.

Oz