Bible Study "... IF you abide in My word, then..."

[Jim Parker]

There are several passages of Scripture that seem to indicate a condition for keeping eternal salvation, that is the condition of "abiding in Him," and "keeping His word" (hang with me, I used the word "seem"!)

John 8:31 - Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed."

Here are a few from the gospel of John (Paul says the same thing several times in his writings too):

John 8:31, John 8:51, John 14:21-24, 1 John 2:28

I think John 14:23 explains everything well though when it relates our love towards Jesus as the proof we will in fact continue to abide in Him.

John 14:23 - Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; ..."

So Jesus is saying you need to abide in Him to be His disciple - but if you love Him, you will abide in Him anyway.

So does it sound like a condition or not? Not to keep salvation. I don't believe in a person losing their salvation once he knows Jesus and the Father. I think what the Lord is saying is there needs to be a change of heart, one that loves the Lord God. That condition is done when you're born again, and the love of Christ is poured into your heart by the Holy Spirit. He puts that desire to abide in Him in you.

Jhn 15:1-8
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[fn] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

“By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples."

In this passage, Jesus describes Himself using the metaphor of a vine and of believers as the branches.
The "vine" is the trunk of the plant from which all the branches are supplied with the nourishment of life.
The purpose of the branches is that they produce a lot of fruit.
In order to do that, they have to remain intimately connected to the vine.
If anyone disconnects from the vine, he will wither and die, be gathered up and cast in the fire. (Metaphor for hell)
If anyone does not produce fruit, the Father cuts him off from the vine and he withers, is gathered up, and cast in the fire.

So, to "abide" in the vine is to remain intimately connected to Christ.
Elsewhere, Paul describes the Church as the Bride (wife) of Christ (Eph 5:31-32). The Bride (church) and husband (Christ) are "one flesh." Paul used the example of husband and wife becoming one flesh as a metaphor for Christ and the Church.
To "abide" in Christ is to be "one flesh" with Christ.
"Abide" is somewhat like "Hold on for dear life." because He literally is your life.

To be separated from Christ is to have no life for in Christ is life. (Jhn 1:4)
To be separated from Christ is to have no indwelling of the Holy Spirit who gives life. (Jhn 6:63)
To have life, one MUST abide in, be intimately connected to, and be one flesh with Christ.
IMHO

So does it sound like a condition or not? Not to keep salvation. I don't believe in a person losing their salvation once he knows Jesus and the Father.

Jhn 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; (NIV "cuts off," prunes off)
Jhn 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
In order to be "cast out" one first has to be "in."
The loss of salvation is taught in the New Testament in multiple places. One has to purposely ignore those passages or invent alternative meanings in order to sustain the rather modern "once saved always saved" notion. (It was not a teaching of the Church during the 1500 years before John Calvin.)

iakov the fool

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not big on theology, but I go for perseverance of the saints, personally. if someone turns apostate, it raises the obvious question: was the person genuinely saved to begin with?

interesting posts, btw.

Hi CE
You've always said this but never explained why you believe it.
When we become born again, do we lose our free will?
If we're free to believe in God, are we then not free to stop believing in Him?
If we keep our free will, doesn't that mean that we are free to also leave Him?
Why would deciding to leave Him mean I was never saved in the first place?
If I have all the requirements doesn't that mean I'm really saved?
Romans 10:9-10
Romans 10:13
Revelation 3:20
1 John 4:7
John 3:16



Then I read verses such as:
1 John 5:13
John writes so that we can know that if we believe in the name of the Son, we will have eternal life.

So If I comply with all of the first verses, thus making me be born again (unless the N.T. is lying to me) and THEN I stop believing in the name of the Son of God...and belief is a requirement...as stated in 1 John 5:13...

Am I still saved?
How?
Do I have the free will to stop believing, or has my free will been taken away upon salvation?

 

[th1b.taylor]

Our Salvation is not conditional. It is not tentative. That is something that likely from the moment Christ drew his last breath on the cross, the adversary of righteousness has hoped to convince the followers of the Lords message of.
“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.” (John 10:28-29)
God is not a man that he should lie. "never", is unequivocal.

While those who hope to convince otherwise were foreseen by Christ too.

“For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.” (Matthew 24:24)
“And many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” (Matthew 24:11-13)

I certainly agree with your position, however, some fear being comforted with the truth, some do not actually believe and some are not dead certain this is true and cannot internalize this truth. Some hope it is the truth but fear Christ will not or cannot hold them and some fear that if they believe in Eternal Security they will sin and break the Contract because so much sin prevails inside of the Church.

That is, generally why I try not to debate this subject. I used to debate it fervently but came to realize that my responsibility to these that need the threat of lose over their heads must be prayed for that they discover the peace we have found in Eternal Forgiveness.

The opposing view is scared of their inability to reason as, it seems, you and I have and understand that we still carry that Sin Nature on our backs and that though we will stumble into sin on occasion, it is still our choice about planning to sin, big stuff to the common man or woman like Fornication, and thus are concerned because so many come in, look very good but over time seem to have slipped back into sin and leave the Church Body.

I, usually, quote the, Double Blind, Barna Group Survey of the American Church, Cross Denominational, where better than 98% of the participants did not believe the Basic Tenants of the Christian Faith. They id not believe such things as Jesus was the Christ, Jesus' death on the cross paid for their sins and Jesus is returning to resurrect us and rapture us to Himself.

I admit, I do not know the Cut-off line but I do know we are called to pray for the Lost and for weakness in the Faith and I pray for those that do not feel Eternally Safe.
They can usually quote scriptures that shine the light of doubt but scriptures like Matthew 24:13 are not stand alone scriptures and it is so difficult to teach someone that the context of scripture runs continua from "In the beginning...beginning.." through the very last word of The Revelation 22.

 

[Christ_empowered]

my (rudimentary, just figuring it out, current...) understanding is like this: you have genuine conversions, and then you have the tares. "free will" is a tricky concept, i think. personally, i think it takes a miracle for anyone to get genuinely, truly saved. its a gift from God. i dont know if im full on into "total depravity" to the point that genuine conversion means one is part of the elect, but I definitely believe that a bona fide conversion requires, at the very least, a touch from God..."prevenient grace," if you will.

i guess it depends on one's interpretation of Scripture, experiences, outlook, etc. I see my salvation as more God's work in my life than my "decision to believe upon Christ," etc. Its worth noting that it wasn't until the 2nd Great Awakening in America that modern evangelism techniques took hold and the church (as a whole...) came to more emphasis on an individual's decision for Christ. In the 1st Great Awakening, you see people like Jonathan Edwards analyzing people for signs of "genuine conversion" and the work of The Holy Spirit in brining out true repentance, etc.

ok. rambling...

...I guess I'm just saying, from my perspective, " 'twas grace that saved a wretch like me," so I lean towards a more Calvinist view of salvation and spiritual growth, etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

my (rudimentary, just figuring it out, current...) understanding is like this: you have genuine conversions, and then you have the tares. "free will" is a tricky concept, i think. personally, i think it takes a miracle for anyone to get genuinely, truly saved. its a gift from God. i dont know if im full on into "total depravity" to the point that genuine conversion means one is part of the elect, but I definitely believe that a bona fide conversion requires, at the very least, a touch from God..."prevenient grace," if you will.

i guess it depends on one's interpretation of Scripture, experiences, outlook, etc. I see my salvation as more God's work in my life than my "decision to believe upon Christ," etc. Its worth noting that it wasn't until the 2nd Great Awakening in America that modern evangelism techniques took hold and the church (as a whole...) came to more emphasis on an individual's decision for Christ. In the 1st Great Awakening, you see people like Jonathan Edwards analyzing people for signs of "genuine conversion" and the work of The Holy Spirit in brining out true repentance, etc.

ok. rambling...

...I guess I'm just saying, from my perspective, " 'twas grace that saved a wretch like me," so I lean towards a more Calvinist view of salvation and spiritual growth, etc.

Thanks CE. I understand.
I don't believe in total depravity either.
I believe a person is sensitive to God, for whatever reason.
Then, by His grace, we become more and more aware of Him. I guess this would be the "touch" you're talking about.
Ephesians 2:8-10

I do, however, believe it requires a response from us...an interest in Him to let Him in.
Rev 3:20

The bible says that God wishes that all be saved. It's just that some don't want to be.
2 Peter 3:9

 

[Cygnus]

There are several passages of Scripture that seem to indicate a condition for keeping eternal salvation, that is the condition of "abiding in Him," and "keeping His word" (hang with me, I used the word "seem"!)

John 8:31 - Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed."

Here are a few from the gospel of John (Paul says the same thing several times in his writings too):

John 8:31, John 8:51, John 14:21-24, 1 John 2:28

I think John 14:23 explains everything well though when it relates our love towards Jesus as the proof we will in fact continue to abide in Him.

John 14:23 - Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; ..."

So Jesus is saying you need to abide in Him to be His disciple - but if you love Him, you will abide in Him anyway.

So does it sound like a condition or not? Not to keep salvation. I don't believe in a person losing their salvation once he knows Jesus and the Father. I think what the Lord is saying is there needs to be a change of heart, one that loves the Lord God. That condition is done when you're born again, and the love of Christ is poured into your heart by the Holy Spirit. He puts that desire to abide in Him in you.

Even as believers....we stop and look around,....and realize we've slipped and are not abiding sin Christ as we should.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Not sure if you're speaking to me...
I agree that the Holy Spirit will guide us into truth.
Not sure about ALL truth...
We cannot be sure about everything where scripture is not precise, iow.

I was speaking to DougK.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Perhaps your idea is the false one.

You're saved as long as you abide in Christ.
Abide is an ongoing action. Not a one time act.

You are misleading persons into thinking they can never lose their salvation no matter what type of life they live.

Jesus left us with commands we're to follow.
Why?
Was He wasting His breath by teaching us how to walk with Him?

The reason i fail to debate this issue is because both positions fall within the pail of Orthodoxy and that means both can be scripturally confirmed. Anyway, if a person is saved they try very hard to please the Father by following, not a son, no, they follow The Son.

I am OSAS and I know that when we are Raptured out of here,every one of us will be OSAS.

 

[GodsGrace]

The reason i fail to debate this issue is because both positions fall within the pail of Orthodoxy and that means both can be scripturally confirmed. Anyway, if a person is saved they try very hard to please the Father by following, not a son, no, they follow The Son.

I am OSAS and I know that when we are Raptured out of here,every one of us will be OSAS.

This is true Bill.
As you know, I believe the bible teaches that we could lose our salvation.
But how? By sinning? NO!
By abandoning Jesus. But then we have to get into how that happens and if it could even be possible. So I also am tiring of this debate.

All I know is that I haven't done this and am not planning to and don't really know of a circumstance where I would since I've been through much since knowing God 40 years ago.
Operations, accidents, illness, deaths, etc.

I repeat again and again one of my favorite scriptures...
John 6:68

 

[th1b.taylor]

Hi CE
You've always said this but never explained why you believe it.
When we become born again, do we lose our free will?
If we're free to believe in God, are we then not free to stop believing in Him?
If we keep our free will, doesn't that mean that we are free to also leave Him?
Why would deciding to leave Him mean I was never saved in the first place?
If I have all the requirements doesn't that mean I'm really saved?
Romans 10:9-10
Romans 10:13
Revelation 3:20
1 John 4:7
John 3:16



Then I read verses such as:
1 John 5:13
John writes so that we can know that if we believe in the name of the Son, we will have eternal life.

So If I comply with all of the first verses, thus making me be born again (unless the N.T. is lying to me) and THEN I stop believing in the name of the Son of God...and belief is a requirement...as stated in 1 John 5:13...

Am I still saved?
How?
Do I have the free will to stop believing, or has my free will been taken away upon salvation?

You were not addressing me and I do not know his reason for believing but the reason I believe OSAS are the scriptures of Jesus describing that we are given to Him and while we are in His hand, there are none that can snatch us from His hand.

 

[th1b.taylor]

This is true Bill.
As you know, I believe the bible teaches that we could lose our salvation.
But how? By sinning? NO!
By abandoning Jesus. But then we have to get into how that happens and if it could even be possible. So I also am tiring of this debate.

All I know is that I haven't done this and am not planning to and don't really know of a circumstance where I would since I've been through much since knowing God 40 years ago.
Operations, accidents, illness, deaths, etc.

I repeat again and again one of my favorite scriptures...
John 6:68

And that must be the standard for either position. But if you don't mind I would like to clarify one fine point that is, perpetually ignored in these discussions on OSAS and NOSAS. The Prodigal Son, Luke 15:11-32, is almost never discussed. The way I understand the tale the son was a forerunner of Bill Taylor. He left the farm wit his money bought a Lyre and sang to the Ladies of the Night and drank, mightily from the Fruit of the vine. Shoot, for understanding lets say he did some Pot to sooth his heart and really thought God and his dad would never restore him to his former state.

My favored illustration of the Return of the Prodigal Son is a painting by a Chinese Christian. First, the Chinese are large on being formal and dressing correctly. They might have, on the Stoop, under the Swing on the Porch, several colors of shoes.

In the painting of the father running to meet and to embrace his lost son, he is painted as wearing one blue shoe and one red shoe. the father was so over joyed, he forgot all propriety and grabbed two shoes and the devil be damned, it is his lost son returning to the father!

In the scriptures,Luke 15:11-32 the father puts clean garments on him and most important, he puts the Family Ring on his finger, full restoration! The Chinese Painting is a beautiful expression of our God's love through our unfaithfulness.

 

[GodsGrace]

You were not addressing me and I do not know his reason for believing but the reason I believe OSAS are the scriptures of Jesus describing that we are given to Him and while we are in His hand, there are none that can snatch us from His hand.

I agree!
While we are IN HIS HAND, there is nothing that can snatch us away.
But we do have to stay in His hand.
I believe we keep our free will after salvation, and that free will allows me to decide to abandon God totally.

Not that I think it's so easy to abandon God, but the scriptures do warn us not to.
If you continue...
If you abide...

All those "if's"...

 

[th1b.taylor]

I agree!
While we are IN HIS HAND, there is nothing that can snatch us away.
But we do have to stay in His hand.
I believe we keep our free will after salvation, and that free will allows me to decide to abandon God totally.

Not that I think it's so easy to abandon God, but the scriptures do warn us not to.
If you continue...
If you abide...

All those "if's"...

Likdewise!

 

[th1b.taylor]

Likewise! I will not, I will not, intentionally, offend my
Abbah Father.

 

[GodsGrace]

And that must be the standard for either position. But if you don't mind I would like to clarify one fine point that is, perpetually ignored in these discussions on OSAS and NOSAS. The Prodigal Son, Luke 15:11-32, is almost never discussed. The way I understand the tale the son was a forerunner of Bill Taylor. He left the farm wit his money bought a Lyre and sang to the Ladies of the Night and drank, mightily from the Fruit of the vine. Shoot, for understanding lets say he did some Pot to sooth his heart and really thought God and his dad would never restore him to his former state.

My favored illustration of the Return of the Prodigal Son is a painting by a Chinese Christian. First, the Chinese are large on being formal and dressing correctly. They might have, on the Stoop, under the Swing on the Porch, several colors of shoes.

In the painting of the father running to meet and to embrace his lost son, he is painted as wearing one blue shoe and one red shoe. the father was so over joyed, he forgot all propriety and grabbed two shoes and the devil be damned, it is his lost son returning to the father!

In the scriptures,Luke 15:11-32 the father puts clean garments on him and most important, he puts the Family Ring on his finger, full restoration! The Chinese Painting is a beautiful expression of our God's love through our unfaithfulness.

I do believe that God loves all His creation...even those that, unfortunately, are not saved.
He waits for us with open arms.
Be it the first time we come to Him or the second or third time.
The Prodigal son, however, DID return to the Father.
What if he had stayed away, feeding those swine?

Luke 15:24 says "this son of mine was dead, and has come to life AGAIN"

That means that if the son had stayed away, he would have been lost.

That's how I understand it.
As far as I'm concerned, there's a big problem with Hebrews 6:4...
When one repents, God will always take that person back to His loving arms.

 

[GodsGrace]

Likewise! I will not, I will not, intentionally, offend my
Abbah Father.

Bill,
I believe we offend Him many times...
That does not cause the loss of our salvation.
We need but to ask forgiveness, we're only saved one time --
Not after each time we sin. Like I said, it's not so easy to lose salvation. It has to be an intentional abandonment of God and return to serving the enemy.

 

[GodsGrace]

 

[ezra]

You are misleading persons into thinking they can never lose their salvation no matter what type of life they live.

your opening a Big can of worms up .. how can we lose something that was never ours? there is a security in our salvation kept by the power of GOD . there is plenty of scripture to show it...what this security is not a reason to live how we want after salvation. Grace is a wonderful thing along with the Holy Spirit abiding in us. which gives us the power to live it along with convict us to get back on track. we have all strayed a little bit along the way.. i have posted this so many times some probably get tired of it.Nothing can separate us from God love .
what i am saying a true blue born again child of God will return much like the prodigal son who come to his senses . to be honest and stay with scriptures .i can.t prove one way or the other. both sides have scriptures to back there points up.

 

[ezra]

Bill,
I believe we offend Him many times...
That does not cause the loss of our salvation.
We need but to ask forgiveness, we're only saved one time --
Not after each time we sin. Like I said, it's not so easy to lose salvation. It has to be an intentional abandonment of God and return to serving the enemy.

:amen

 

[Edward]

So does it sound like a condition or not? Not to keep salvation. I don't believe in a person losing their salvation once he knows Jesus and the Father. I think what the Lord is saying is there needs to be a change of heart, one that loves the Lord God. That condition is done when you're born again, and the love of Christ is poured into your heart by the Holy Spirit. He puts that desire to abide in Him in you.

v
I can agree with you. It reads like that to me too. We are supposed to abide in Him. Now what that means, is...where you go and close the door and pray and worship and specd time with Jesus. Go into his presence. We are...In Christ. He is In us. Now you leave the room...Lol and walk with Him. Your buddy by your side. I invite Jesus to ride with me almost every time, to the store, to work. I think we should be taking that abide instruction pretty seriously. He loves to go to work with me, and He has has helped me at work. You might not believe me, lol but it's true. Darndest thing I ever seen. If we don't abide in Him and constantly seeking His presence to be with us, and talk to Him all day long! Then what if He comes at a moment we've forgotten His presence (He's always there anyway)...I don't know...are those the people who will hear I didn't know you? I try to abide in Him. He makes work easier for me, and I appreciate that!