If you believe you can lose your salvation, you are not saved!(explanation)

[Seabass]

incorrrect. There is NOTHING in the context that defines any gift of God as being election. The ONLY THING that Paul defined as a gift of God is justification and eternal life.


God's gifts (justification and eternal life) are irrevocable.

You are simply reading something into the Rom 11:29 text that is not there.
As already had been demonstrated, the Jews themselves are proof OSAS is not biblical for they went from being God's elect/God's chosen to being cast away/broken off Rom 11:15,20 and they became lost due to unbelief in Christ YET they could be grafted in if they did not continue in their unbelief Rom 11:23. It makes no sense to say the Jews could be grafted in if it were impossible for them to ever be broken off/cast away in the first place, that is, it makes no sense to say the Jews could be grafted in if they continue not in unbelief (v23) if it were impossible for them to ever lose their belief and become lost. Forcing eternal security into the text creates havoc and contradictions within the text.


Staying within the context of Rom 11, the gifts and calling of God that are said to be irrevocable in ROm 11:29 are the gifts and calling God made to the Jews in that God did not cut them off permanently from salvation due to their unbelief but still made salvation available to the Jews, they can still receive the gifts and calling of God and be saved through Christ.

 

[dadof10]

I don't know that the covenant would have been carried forward with Ishmael. After all, it was God who made the covenant and Abram was simply an observer and recipient of the covenant as he did not participate in the covenant as was tradition for their culture.

I don't think the covenant would have been carried forward with Ishmael either. I didn't put it correctly. What I meant was that it was Abraham's idea to just carry it forward with Ishmael. God said He would give Abraham a son through Sarah, but Abraham just laughed and doubted God could do what He just said He was going to. Instead, Abraham's bright idea was to just carry on his seed, and by extension God's covenant, through Ishmael. God didn't like that idea, so went back to plan A.

Ishmael was the result of Abram taking matters into his own hands, which was also customary or his culture since Sari was barren. Sex with someone not your wife is not natural in the order of the creation of man and woman, nor is it natural for a woman to give her man to another woman. Thus, this was the attempt of Sari and Abram to pass on Abram's seed, and fulfill God's plan. In short, this may be considered a work, for it did not come naturally, but rather out of duress, obligation and the idea one is doing God's will to make the promise come about into a tangible reality.

Right, Abraham tried to "do it himself" instead of trusting God. God had told Abraham long before the covenant that he would make his descendants "as numerous as the sand on the seashore". The problem was, God took His sweet time and gave Abraham a chance to doubt, which he did. I'm sure that Abraham and Sarah didn't agree with the whole "Hagar thing" to spite God or anything like that. As you said, it was probably their attempt to honestly "fulfill God's plan". They didn't realize (maybe?) that they weren't trusting in God's providence.

However, it does do as did their first journey to Egpt, for we are strengthened through our failures. One may even describe this as the act of sanctification.

Sure. God allows us to go our own way, then through the trials we, ourselves bring about, He strengthens us and, yes, even saves us through suffering.

"Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control." (1Tim. 2:15 ESV)

But as it is natural for a man and woman to lay together and the result is a child, so was it for Abram to believe in God's promise. Thus, the justification which occurred with Abram was a natural response, and not one out of duress or cohersion. Otherwise, similar to having sex with Hagar, it would simply be a work without true relationship. The motive may be right, but the means is slightly off. And when we discover our errors, we are sanctified... because we've already been justified, which is to say, we still believe, even when we don't understand how it will all play itself out.

But what if we disobey? Do we still remain justified?

 

[Seabass]

I've given a long list of verses that mention ONLY faith in Christ for salvation/eternal life.

You never provided a verse that says belief only is all that is necessary to be saved. No verse says belief only is all that is necessary to be saved for that would contradict the verses that make repentance, confession and baptism just as necessary to salvation.

Not sure what you mean by "impenitent". Also, when ever did I say that impenitent ones will be saved?

Impenitent as in Rom 2:4,5 where a person will not repent of his/her sins.
Therefore if you claim belief ONLY saves then you are leaving out repentance. IF one can be saved by belief only then he can be saved WITHOUT repenting. Since no one can be saved without repenting then a NT belief INCLUDES repentance meaning all the belief only in the world can never save one who refuses to repent.

If one never believed in Christ, they will NOT be saved. Anyone who believes in Christ has eternal life, which is irrevocable.

One receives the promise of eternal life CONDITIONALLY by obeying the will of God and keeps that promise by CONDITIONALLY continuing to obey the will of God meaning if one turns from God back to disobedience and unrighteousness then they have forfeited that promise of eternal life. No verse says the promise of eternal life is received or maintained UNconditionally.

The gospel isn't about baptism, unless one means the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which isn't about water. Only those who have been baptised with the Holy Spirit are saved. Water baptism is a ritual only. No saving power.

Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

Consequently the ones that rejected baptism were the ones that rejected Peter's gospel words. The language is implying as long as one rejects baptism he is rejecting the word/the gospel.

The one baptism (Eph 4:5) that is in effect for us today is the disciple (human) adminsitered water baptism of Christ's great commission, Matt 28:19,20; Mk 16;15,16 cf Acts 8:36,37,38.

Interesting opinion, but the verse does NOT teach this idea. It says those who God saves were created FOR good works. It says nothing of any guarantee that all believers will have good works.


Eph 2:10 doesn't say anything about being ordained. What verse is being cited here?

Eph 2:10 is saying God BEFORE ORDAINED - God predetermined that Christians walk in good works.
No good works = not a Christian.

 

[dadof10]

I can't take any christian theological view seriously that tries to make Abraham a stand alone fellow.

Genesis 26:24
And the Lord appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake.

The "essence" of having A Savior is having God in Christ "with us" and "within" us.

So, my question is, who is being judged? For such, by faith in Christ, Christ is in them and with them. There is no individual standing.

So God is laughing at His own promise here?

And God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. I will bless her, and moreover, I will give you a son by her. I will bless her, and she shall become nations; kings of peoples shall come from her. ”Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed and said to himself, “Shall a child be born to a man who is a hundred years old? Shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before you!” (Gen. 17:15-18 ESV)

 

[Seabass]

Of course the biblical reference to "believe" carries the idea of obey.

As I have pointed out many times, Unbelief and disobedience are the same Greek word.

Unbelief = Disobedience

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6 KJV

Unless one obeys the Gospel command to Repent, which means in every since of the word to turn to God with committed, faithful, obedience.


It is the violation of this holy command, by "turning away from", or "departing from" God that is the "disobedience" the new testament writers warn us about.

Those who disobey the Gospel, will suffer the same wrath and more from God when Jesus Christ returns.
2 Thessalonians 1:9-11, 2 Peter 2:20-24


JLB

I agree that believing is obeying.
So I do not understand why you posted to me "This scripture sure does validate what you are saying." in your post #295.

 

[dadof10]

The gospel isn't about baptism, unless one means the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which isn't about water. Only those who have been baptised with the Holy Spirit are saved. Water baptism is a ritual only. No saving power.

Where is this taught in Scripture?

 

[smaller]

So God is laughing at His own promise here?

Is God incapable? Is man capable?

I might think God knows what He is doing. Man, not so much.

We weren't justified on our own prior to salvation and that can't be the case after salvation, because, by faith, we are not alone. God in Christ is able. We weren't, aren't and won't be. Simple common sense.

2 Timothy 1:12
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

And just to dispel any notions that it was the state of sinless performances that saved Paul, he eliminates that from the equations for himself in 1 Tim. 1:15, showing himself being the chief of sinners, post salvation. Does that look like "works" salvation? Uh, no. The opposite is the case. We are the recipients of (unmerited) Grace and Divine Mercy based on our complete and total inability to save ourselves, because we are in fact sinners, and remain so as long as we live.

 

[dadof10]

Is God incapable? Is man capable?

I might think God knows what He is doing. Man, not so much.

We weren't justified on our own prior to salvation and that can't be the case after salvation, because, by faith, we are not alone. God in Christ is able. We weren't, aren't and won't be. Simple common sense.

2 Timothy 1:12
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

And just to dispel any notions that it was the state of sinless performances that saved Paul, he eliminates that from the equations for himself in 1 Tim. 1:15, showing himself being the chief of sinners, post salvation. Does that look like "works" salvation? Uh, no. The opposite is the case. We are the recipients of (unmerited) Grace and Divine Mercy based on our complete and total inability to save ourselves, because we are in fact sinners, and remain so as long as we live.

I'm not even talking about "works salvation" here, just that it was Abraham "standing by himself", who was laughing at God. The only other alternative is God laughing at Himself, which is ridiculous.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is not the same as the obedient, trusting faith showed by Abraham in Gen. 12 for two reasons.

First, Paul specifically tells us that it's not.

Completely and utterly false.

What he tells us is the circumcision itself can not justify. He already has the faith that justifies before this. Paul makes this exact point, even calling his circumcision the SIGN of the righteousness he already had by faith:

"For we say, “FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised" (Romans 4: NASB capitals in original)

So what you say is in complete and utter contradiction to what Paul says.

 

[smaller]

I'm not even talking about "works salvation" here, just that it was Abraham "standing by himself", who was laughing at God. The only other alternative is God laughing at Himself, which is ridiculous.

If we look at any sinner we'll probably find sin. This doesn't preclude God being with/within any believer by faith, nor will it preclude the actions of the flesh/being a sinner. Paul was quite clear about how indwelling sin works internally and adversely to the Dictates of God in Romans 7:7-13, in anyone, including a laugher.

 

[dadof10]

Completely and utterly false.

What he tells us is the circumcision itself can not justify. He already has the faith that justifies before this. Paul makes this exact point, even calling his circumcision the SIGN of the righteousness he already had by faith:

"For we say, “FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised" (Romans 4: NASB capitals in original)

So what you say is in complete and utter contradiction to what Paul says.

Yep, you're right on this one. I misread what you wrote. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[JLB]

I agree that believing is obeying.
So I do not understand why you posted to me "This scripture sure does validate what you are saying." in your post #295.

I was agreeing with you and showing a scripture that validates what you posted.


JLB

 

[JLB]

What he tells us is the circumcision itself can not justify. He already has the faith that justifies before this. Paul makes this exact point, even calling his circumcision the SIGN of the righteousness he already had by faith:

Yes, we see from the scriptures that Abraham walked in the righteousness of faith, when He obeyed God and left his country to a land that God would show him, in obedience to the Voice of God.

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

What you have claimed in this thread, is that the faith in Hebrews 11 is not the kind of faith that makes a person righteous.

To which I replied with the following scriptures:

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. Hebrews 11:4

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

By faith = obedient to the Voice of God.

Scripture teaches that there is a righteousness which is according to faith.

Abraham was right with God when he obeyed God and left his country to the land that God told him to go to.


Those who practice righteousness are righteous. 1 John 3:7

Only Obedience makes a person righteous.

If God tells you to do something, and you believe in your heart, without doing what He told you to do, then you are rebellious.



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

I don't think the covenant would have been carried forward with Ishmael either. I didn't put it correctly. What I meant was that it was Abraham's idea to just carry it forward with Ishmael. God said He would give Abraham a son through Sarah, but Abraham just laughed and doubted God could do what He just said He was going to. Instead, Abraham's bright idea was to just carry on his seed, and by extension God's covenant, through Ishmael. God didn't like that idea, so went back to plan A.

Lol, yeah, I figured that's what you meant as far as Ishmael.
I know your reasoning is pretty well accepted among many, but can we look at it from a different angle?
I believe that when Abraham laughed, it was a joyous laughter. And when he questions, it's not doubt, but rather it's like saying, "Pinch me, is this real!". Remember, Abraham believed God. I don't think Abraham ever doubted God. But Abraham didn't know how God was going to fulfil that plan. I As far as what Abraham said about Ishmael, I get the idea that Abraham figured out "His" idea of how God was going to work in his life wasn't the way God was going to do things. Of course he cared for his son Ishmael... and he wanted his son to follow God. But I think Abraham had the realization that the promise wasn't going to come through Ishmael, but he still wanted good things for Ishmael.

As far as Sarah, yes, she laughed because she was being spiteful and bitter.

But what if we disobey? Do we still remain justified?

We are justified through believing. Listen, if the Law of moses teaches anything, it teaches we can't obey every law. It even comes with snags where to uphold one law, you have to violate the other. In essence, it has within it the ability to teach discernment. But that's not my point... my point is that our salvation isn't based on our obedience. It's based on our faith and belief. But I think it's more than just believing in Jesus. It's believing that he will never leave or forsake you, even when your being disobedient. Heaven knows we want to do what's right, but we need to discern what's right sometimes too. We need to look at the bigger picture and know when grace is needed

 

[FreeGrace]

Your explanation seems to disregard the fact that those whom Paul is describing in Romans 1, "knew God"
at one time, retained the knowledge of God, and turned to idolatry...
JLB

I've already explained, FROM THE CONTEXT, what "knew God" actually means. From Rom 1:19,20.

If my understanding is wrong, please provide a detailed explanation of WHY or HOW so. Just firing off these quippy little posts isn't helpful to anyone.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yeah, a lot of them. Fundamentalists who believe in "faith alone". If pressed, they will admit that even if they die committing a heinous sin, they will go directly to Heaven because they "accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior" once in their lives. This is the definition of "disobedient faith that saves".

I disagree with your "definition". I've already given the requirements for saving faith.
#1 the object must be the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
#2 the goal must be salvation/eternal life.

What you've "defined" is what may happen AFTER exercising saving faith. That is a different subject altogether.

No wonder there is so much confusion; there is so much conflation.

But, let's address your so-called definition of "disobedient faith that saves". If this so-called person was wrong, then that would mean that there are "heinous sins" that will keep God's children out of heaven. So, what are those "heinous sins"? And please provide verses that actually teach and support such a notion.

So, I must ask a very simple question: how many sins did Jesus Christ die for? Some of them. Most of them, a few of them, or ALL of them?

If He died for only the "non-heinous sins", then your so-called definition might have some merit. But I don't find any Scripture to support that.

If He died for anything LESS than ALL sins, again, your so-called definition might have some traction. But, again, I don't find any Scripture to support that.

What I have found is that Jesus Christ died for ALL sins. Every last one of them.

So, that being so, how can any sin keep any of God's children out of heaven? That makes no sense.

I do hope all of these questions are addressed and answered. Not just ignored or disagreed using some quippy little post.

 

[FreeGrace]

You are simply reading something into the Rom 11:29 text that is not there.

No offense meant, but that is just hilarious. It was Paul who actually defined God's gifts before he wrote 11:29. So that is where we must go (you know, for context) to know what he was referring to.

But, since there is such disagreement, please point out between Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29 where Paul defined ANYTHING ELSE as God's gift that are irrevocable all the while proving from context that Paul never intended anyone to think that he was meaning either justification or eternal life.

As already had been demonstrated, the Jews themselves are proof OSAS is not biblical for they went from being God's elect/God's chosen to being cast away/broken off Rom 11:15,20 and they became lost due to unbelief in Christ YET they could be grafted in if they did not continue in their unbelief Rom 11:23.

None of this refutes the FACT that Paul had defined "God's gifts" as justification and eternal life. Your view is forced to make a HUGE assumption about what he meant by "gifts", when he didn't define anything of what you've claimed as being God's gifts.

Staying within the context of Rom 11, the gifts and calling of God that are said to be irrevocable in ROm 11:29 are the gifts and calling God made to the Jews in that God did not cut them off permanently from salvation due to their unbelief but still made salvation available to the Jews, they can still receive the gifts and calling of God and be saved through Christ.

So, what Greek text requires "staying within Rom 11" in order to define what Paul was meaning by 'gift'? There's no reason to limit oneself to a chapter where Paul didn't define "gift", when he had already defined several things as God's gifts previously.

Context may include whatever has preceded Rom 11:29 in order to determine what Paul meant by 'gift'. We don't have that privilege or authority to RE-define what Paul meant when he already defined what he meant.

But, this is how those who's agenda of loss of salvation must try to re-invent the text, to support their ideas, or "refute" the teaching of Scripture that eternal life is irrevocable.

 

[stovebolts]

By faith = obedient to the Voice of God.

Scripture teaches that there is a righteousness which is according to faith.

Abraham was right with God when he obeyed God and left his country to the land that God told him to go to.

hmmmm... let me ask you a question. Does righteousness come by what you do (obeying God), or who you are (in relation to God)? As far as Abraham, I believe God saw something great in this man for who he was. As such, I don't think God was going to set Abraham up to fail. He already knew the heart of Abraham and he knew Abram would pack up and leave his own country. The fact that Abram obeyed is simply a validation of who Abram was.

Thoughts??

 

[FreeGrace]

You never provided a verse that says belief only is all that is necessary to be saved. No verse says belief only is all that is necessary to be saved for that would contradict the verses that make repentance, confession and baptism just as necessary to salvation.

So, there must be a verse that uses the word "only" before it will be believed?? Doesn't work that way. Here is how it works. Let's consider the verses that mention the basis of salvation and then look for any other condition listed. If there are no other conditions, we can be certain that there aren't any other conditions.

This list is how one receives salvation:
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'
Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Now, how many of these verses mentioned anything other than faith? None.

Now, here's a list of verses about how one receives eternal life:
John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now, what else is mentioned other than faith in Christ? Nothing.

Impenitent as in Rom 2:4,5 where a person will not repent of his/her sins.

OK, now, please define 'repent' so I know exactly what is meant here.

Therefore if you claim belief ONLY saves then you are leaving out repentance.

I've already defined how I understand 'repent'. Please provide your understanding of it.

One receives the promise of eternal life CONDITIONALLY by obeying the will of God and keeps that promise by CONDITIONALLY continuing to obey the will of God meaning if one turns from God back to disobedience and unrighteousness then they have forfeited that promise of eternal life.

Please provide any verse that says that eternal is conditioned on "continuing to obey and will of God".

 

[FreeGrace]

Where is this taught in Scripture?

Consider what John the baptist said: “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

The baptism John was referring to was one without water, as he very clearly noted.