If you believe you can lose your salvation, you are not saved!(explanation)

[Kidron]

hmmmm... let me ask you a question. Does righteousness come by what you do (obeying God), or who you are (in relation to God)?

For you to be accepted by God, you have to have righteousness that is equal to His.
This is why all forms of good works you can do, have no value to God with regards to SALVATION.
They (good works) do have value to God, subsequent to Salvation, and this is called DISCIPLESHIP.
However, this also is not connected to Salvation with respect to the Righteousness that God accepts.
So, to get the very righteousness of God is first to understand that you cant attain it by yourself.
And following this, you will begin to seek just how you CAN get it, if you are ever going to have it.
Enter now, the righteousness of God himself, in the form of Jesus hanging on a Cross, and at this Cross and by your faith
there is a (born again) transaction that occurs whereby the very Righteousness of God himself (Jesus) is given to you as a free gift while your sins are given to Jesus to die for and pay for and in this, you are eternally "saved".
There is no other Way, whereby you may be saved.

 

[JLB]

I've already explained, FROM THE CONTEXT, what "knew God" actually means. From Rom 1:19,20.

If my understanding is wrong, please provide a detailed explanation of WHY or HOW so. Just firing off these quippy little posts isn't helpful to anyone.

That's just it, your "explanation" isn't really any explanation at all, but rather a denial of what the scriptures teach.

Eternal life is knowing God.
John 17:3

Because you don't like the implications of what the phrase
"They knew God"" has on your OSAS doctrine, you decide to "explain" away the meaning of knowing God, and what Jesus says that means.


JLB

 

[JLB]

What I have found is that Jesus Christ died for ALL sins. Every last one of them.

Please share the scripture with us that teaches us Jesus died for all sins.

But the cowardly, unbelieving,abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

Why would this scripture teach us the folks that commited these sins will have their part in the lake of fire?

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Revelation 14:9-11

Why are we warned that if anyone who takes the mark or worships the beast will be tormented with fire day and night forever and ever, if Jesus died for their sin?


JLB

 

[JLB]

hmmmm... let me ask you a question. Does righteousness come by what you do (obeying God), or who you are (in relation to God)? As far as Abraham, I believe God saw something great in this man for who he was. As such, I don't think God was going to set Abraham up to fail.

You should explain your theory to Adam, God's son.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"If my understanding is wrong, please provide a detailed explanation of WHY or HOW so. Just firing off these quippy little posts isn't helpful to anyone."

That's just it, your "explanation" isn't really any explanation at all, but rather a denial of what the scriptures teach.

Actually, my explanation is the truth of what Scripture says.

Eternal life is knowing God. John 17:3

It is also a gift of God (Rom 6:23) to those who believe (Jn 6:40) and is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Because you don't like the implications of what the phrase
"They knew God"" has on your OSAS doctrine, you decide to "explain" away the meaning of knowing God, and what Jesus says that means.JLB

I love that phrase. So your opinion is wrong again. They knew God because God made His existence VERY PLAIN to them, and they have no excuse for that reason.

But there is nothing in Rom 1:19 or 20 to lead to the false conclusion that they were believers.

 

[FreeGrace]

Please share the scripture with us that teaches us Jesus died for all sins.

Interesting. Given your Arminian view that salvation can be lost, and that Arminians also believe in unlimited atonement, this is a switch.

Anyhow:
Heb 2:9 - But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

2 Cor 5:14,15
14For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

You're welcome.

 

[stovebolts]

You should explain your theory to Adam, God's son.

JLB

I'm posting this from Chabad. Enjoy!

Adam trudged past the gates of Eden, his head low, his feet heavy with remorse and pain.

Then he stopped, spun around and exclaimed, “Wait a minute! You had this all planned! You put that fruit there knowing I would eat from it! This is all a plot!”

There was no reply.

Without failure, we can never truly reach into the depths of our souls. Only once we have failed can we return and reach higher and higher without end.

Beyond Eden.

 

[Seabass]

No offense meant, but that is just hilarious. It was Paul who actually defined God's gifts before he wrote 11:29. So that is where we must go (you know, for context) to know what he was referring to.

But, since there is such disagreement, please point out between Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29 where Paul defined ANYTHING ELSE as God's gift that are irrevocable all the while proving from context that Paul never intended anyone to think that he was meaning either justification or eternal life.

Again, the context is about God's gift and calling to the Jews was without repentance. Even though the Jews would not believe God would not repent of the gifts and calling He had made to the Jews.

None of this refutes the FACT that Paul had defined "God's gifts" as justification and eternal life. Your view is forced to make a HUGE assumption about what he meant by "gifts", when he didn't define anything of what you've claimed as being God's gifts.


So, what Greek text requires "staying within Rom 11" in order to define what Paul was meaning by 'gift'? There's no reason to limit oneself to a chapter where Paul didn't define "gift", when he had already defined several things as God's gifts previously.

Paul never said in Rom 11 or else that when one receives the promise of salvation he can never lose it under any circumstance.

Context may include whatever has preceded Rom 11:29 in order to determine what Paul meant by 'gift'. We don't have that privilege or authority to RE-define what Paul meant when he already defined what he meant.

But, this is how those who's agenda of loss of salvation must try to re-invent the text, to support their ideas, or "refute" the teaching of Scripture that eternal life is irrevocable.

Context is important for in Rom 11 Paul clearly says the Jews, who were once God's elect, were now cut off/cast away and the context informs us those unbelieving Jews were still beloved because of the fathers and God would not repent of the calling and gifts He had made to the Jews, that is, make salvation impossible for the Jews but instead would still keep His word and make salvation possible for the Jews through Christ. The man-made idea of OSAS is not to be found in the context at all.

 

[Seabass]

So, there must be a verse that uses the word "only" before it will be believed?? Doesn't work that way. Here is how it works. Let's consider the verses that mention the basis of salvation and then look for any other condition listed. If there are no other conditions, we can be certain that there aren't any other conditions.

"Believe" and "believe only" are not the same thing.
"Believe" includes repentance confession and baptism to be saved.
"Believe only" excludes repentance confession and baptism from being saved.

This list is how one receives salvation:
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'
Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Now, how many of these verses mentioned anything other than faith? None.

The above is a mere partial list of verses that deal with salvation.
There are many, many, many more verses that deal with salvation you did not include. Paul once said he did not shun to declare the whole counsel of God (Acts 20:27) and one does not have the whole counsel of God until he includes ALL verses that deal with salvation, verses that include the necessity to repent confess and be baptized. A partial list of random or cherry-picked verses is NOT the whole council of God.

Now, here's a list of verses about how one receives eternal life:
John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now, what else is mentioned other than faith in Christ? Nothing.

Not one says to 'believe only" to receive eternal life.
Are you insisting one can refuse to repent of his sins, Lk 13:3; refuse to confess Christ Mt 10:32,33; refuse to accept the gospel by being baptized Acts 2:41 and still have the promise of eternal life???

OK, now, please define 'repent' so I know exactly what is meant here.


I've already defined how I understand 'repent'. Please provide your understanding of it.

One must repent of his sins, make a change in his life in turning away from living is sin/unrighteousness to living righteously.
Acts 2:38 repentance is an imperative and those that fail to obey this command of God/will of God remain lost.

Please provide any verse that says that eternal is conditioned on "continuing to obey and will of God".

First. your statement here seems to be implying one can continue in disobedience to the will of God and yet be saved anyway. What verses suggests this??

1 Jn 1:7 the Christian must continue to walk (present tense) in the light (do the will of God) in order to have all his sins cleansed away by the blood of Christ.
Rev 2:10 one must be faithful unto death (keeping the will of God unto death) to receive a crown of life.
1 Jn 3:10 as long as one continues to NOT do righteousness (obey God's commands) he continues to NOT be of God.

These verses do not merely 'suggest' one must do the will of God to be saved but require/demand one do the will of God to be saved/of God.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[smaller]

Conditional salvation is a form of legalism.

In contracts, legal, there are 2 parties. There are terms and conditions stipulated in the contract, and penalties associated with non performance of said conditions. Conditional salvation is a similar effort.

Contract law doesn't apply to God in Christ, and can't. It's a unilateral conveyance, meaning it only comes from one direction. It's not a 2 way contract.

In the Gospel, the precursor condition to receipt is the inability of the other party to perform. Grace is unmerited favor. Mercy is a one way grant, given the inability of the recipient to perform.

This type of one way extension is seen here, for example. The pharisee approached God in a legalistic manner, thinking, quite entirely falsely, that by his actions and abilities to perform, he was justified. He wasn't.

Luke 18:
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The marks of the pharisee are always similar. They justify themselves, and they despise others for their lack of performances, compared to their own. And they lie to Gods Face about the fact that they are sinners. Thusly, they are turned to hypocrisy by the Hand of God, being against them for their dishonesty.

The receipt of Divine Mercy and unmerited favor aka Grace, is predicated on "needs," because we are in fact sinners. It's a one way street, not a 2 way contract. No one in truth can say before our Maker, truthfully, that they are not sinners, regardless of any of what they might do performance wise.

Jesus shows this same thing again, here, showing the "correct" mindset of His servants:

Luke 17:10
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Where is that voice amongst all who "conditionally" justify themselves? You'll never hear it because it is an offense to their pride. Every now and then you might hear one squeak out that they are sinners, after much prompting to be honest, that is. And then, invariably, they will quickly resort to whatever theological performance rituals/contract/conditional performance quotients that they use to avoid being judged for being sinners. In effect saying, yeah, I'm a sinner, but I did this to avoid being a sinner.

Uh, no, you didn't. Such are just playing legal games with The Word, no different than the pharisee given as an example, by Jesus.

 

[Kidron]

""If you take Jesus, God takes you"", is how i once heard Salvation explained, and ive yet to see it explained any clearer by people who write 50,000 word essays and include 3456 verses.

The other thing ive noticed, is that there seems to be some serious darkness and confusion around this site regarding WHO saved you.
And, if the debate gets away from James and Hebrews as it should and is turned instead to the simple question, "Who saved you", you can then get the context of the Cross involved in the final answer, which seems to be missing within all this long winded scriptural blathering about "water baptism" and "works", OR any other useless device that steals the Credit from the Sacrifice of Jesus and attempts to exchange it for personal accountability or religiosity or " your good works".

 

[JLB]

QUOTE="FreeGrace, post: 1125591, member: 7355"
Please provide any verse that says that eternal is conditioned on "continuing to obey and will of God".

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

Eternal Salvation is given to those who obey Him.

 

[Seabass]

Can anyone be saved without CONDITIONALLY believing? No, Jn 8:24
Can one be saved/not perish without CONDITIONALLY repenting? No, Lk 13:3,5
Can one be saved without CONDITIONALLY confessing Christ? No, Mt 10:32,33; Rom 10:9,10
Can one be saved without CONDITIONALLY accepting the gospel without being baptized? No, Acts 2:41.

Is believing, repentance confession and baptism forms of legalism? No, but are all forms of righteousness of God for they all come from God and given to man to do.

Do Old Testament examples, as the thief or publican, proof that one who lives under Christ's NT does not have to believe, repent, confess and be baptized to be saved? Does the thief negate my need to believe, repent, confess and be baptized to be saved? No.

 

[Seabass]

""If you take Jesus, God takes you"", is how i once heard Salvation explained, and ive yet to see it explained any clearer by people who write 50,000 word essays and include 3456 verses.

The other thing ive noticed, is that there seems to be some serious darkness and confusion around this site regarding WHO saved you.
And, if the debate gets away from James and Hebrews as it should and is turned instead to the simple question, "Who saved you", you can then get the context of the Cross involved in the final answer, which seems to be missing within all this long winded scriptural blathering about "water baptism" and "works", OR any other useless device that steals the Credit from the Sacrifice of Jesus and attempts to exchange it for personal accountability or religiosity or " your good works".

The way the bible puts it:

If you keep on taking (present tense) Christ, then God will keep on taking you.

The implication being if one quits taking Christ, God no longer takes him.

Some will ignore the present tense of verbs and assume God will continue to UNcondtionally take one even if one quits taking Christ.

Jn 11:26 "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. "

Believeth is present tense one must CONDITIONALLY continue to keep on believing to never die.
Die is subjunctive mood showing one may or may not die depending upon the circumstance if he continues to believe or not.

 

[Kidron]

The way the bible puts it:

If you keep on taking Christ Christ, then God will keep on taking you.

The implication being if one quits taking Christ, God no longer takes him

No bible says what you have tried to make it say.
Not one bible.
The fact is, if you take Christ, then you are born again., and you are not born again, ever again, other then once.
"Born", is a one time event, being it a birth of a baby or the new birth of a born again spirit.
It happens ONCE, and only ONCE, in both cases.
You dont get saved over and over, by repenting and repenting.
So, being born again, is to be saved once, and once saved is all there ever will be, and as you cant be unborn again,
you are eternally secure.

 

[JLB]

""If you take Jesus, God takes you"", is how i once heard Salvation explained, and ive yet to see it explained any clearer by people who write 50,000 word essays and include 3456 verses.

The other thing ive noticed, is that there seems to be some serious darkness and confusion around this site regarding WHO saved you.
And, if the debate gets away from James and Hebrews as it should and is turned instead to the simple question, "Who saved you", you can then get the context of the Cross involved in the final answer, which seems to be missing within all this long winded scriptural blathering about "water baptism" and "works", OR any other useless device that steals the Credit from the Sacrifice of Jesus and attempts to exchange it for personal accountability or religiosity or " your good works".

Who = Jesus Christ

How about faith? Does faith play a part in your Gospel?

Jesus Christ paid the price for our salvation, as well as the whole world.

Will all the world obtain the salvation Jesus paid for?

The confusion in believers about salvation comes from two major misunderstandings of how the salvation that Jesus paid for us comes, and when we obtain the salvation that Jesus paid for...

How the salvation is obtained.
When the salvation is obtained.

How = by faith. Ephesians 2:8
Saved by grace through faith.

through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Romans 5:2


When = the end of our faith.

Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

If you still have faith for salvation, then you have not yet obtained the reality of the salvation that Jesus paid for on the cross.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

For you to be accepted by God, you have to have righteousness that is equal to His.
This is why all forms of good works you can do, have no value to God with regards to SALVATION.
They (good works) do have value to God, subsequent to Salvation, and this is called DISCIPLESHIP.
However, this also is not connected to Salvation with respect to the Righteousness that God accepts.
So, to get the very righteousness of God is first to understand that you cant attain it by yourself.
And following this, you will begin to seek just how you CAN get it, if you are ever going to have it.
Enter now, the righteousness of God himself, in the form of Jesus hanging on a Cross, and at this Cross and by your faith
there is a (born again) transaction that occurs whereby the very Righteousness of God himself (Jesus) is given to you as a free gift while your sins are given to Jesus to die for and pay for and in this, you are eternally "saved".
There is no other Way, whereby you may be saved.

Just when you need a 'Like' button.

"being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption (the forgiveness of sins-Ephesians 1:7) which is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24 NASB)

This single truth excludes any and all consideration of any and all work being able to justify a person. Justification is through the removal of unrighteousness through the forgiveness of that unrighteousness and replacing it with the righteousness of Christ. No work is required to accomplish that except to believe God's word that he will do that for you for the asking. That is indeed the good news of the Gospel.

Works only play a role in salvation in that they show us that we do indeed possess that righteousness, the righteousness of the children of God:

"Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God" (Philippians 2:14-15 NASB italics mine)

 

[Seabass]

No bible says what you have tried to make it say.
Not one bible.
The fact is, if you take Christ, then you are born again., and you are not born again, ever again, other then once.
"Born", is a one time event, being it a birth of a baby or the new birth of a born again spirit.
It happens ONCE, and only ONCE, in both cases.
You dont get saved over and over, by repenting and repenting.
So, being born again, is to be saved once, and once saved is all there ever will be, and as you cant be unborn again,
you are eternally secure.

I added the following (blue) to my post after you replied to me:

Some will ignore the present tense of verbs and assume God will continue to UNcondtionally take one even if one quits taking Christ.

Jn 11:26 "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. "

Believeth is present tense one must CONDITIONALLY continue to keep on believing to never die.
Die is subjunctive mood showing one may or may not die depending upon the circumstance if he continues to believe or not.

----------------------

Can a Christian remain in a saved condition if he quits repenting?

1 Jn 1:7 does not say the Christian needs to be "saved over and over" but simply states if the Christian walks (present tense) in the light then the blood of Christ cleanses (present tense) away all sins. Again, this is not about being saved over and over again but about already being in a saved condition and remaining in that saved condition is CONDITIONAL upon a ongoing, present tense walk. Can the Christian quit this walk and remain saved? No. Does the Christian lose his salvation and need to be saved again if he sins? No, for IF he continues to walk in the light then all his sins will be cleansed away. Yet IF the Christian quits walking in the light altogether then he will be come lost in his sins and need to be "saved again" as the prodigal was dead then "alive again".

 

[Kidron]

Just when you need a 'Like' button.

"being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption (the forgiveness of sins-Ephesians 1:7) which is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24 NASB)

This single truth excludes any and all consideration of any and all work being able to justify a person. Justification is through the removal of unrighteousness through the forgiveness of that unrighteousness and replacing it with the righteousness of Christ. No work is required to accomplish that except to believe God's word that he will do that for you for the asking. That is indeed the good news of the Gospel.

Works only play a role in salvation in that they show us that we do indeed possess that righteousness, the righteousness of the children of God:

"Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God" (Philippians 2:14-15 NASB italics mine)

Yes.

i think that if a saved person will ask themselves, "what am i trusting to save me", or "who saved me".....if they will ask themselves these and then answer honestly, they will discover if they are trusting in Christ or if instead they are trusting in themselves + the Cross.
There is only one right answer, and the answer is not....."well, i know that God saved me through Christ ,....BUT....

So, if there is a "but" in their inner faith world , there is a disease within their understanding of Grace.

 

[Seabass]

Just when you need a 'Like' button.

"being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption (the forgiveness of sins-Ephesians 1:7) which is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24 NASB)

This single truth excludes any and all consideration of any and all work being able to justify a person. Justification is through the removal of unrighteousness through the forgiveness of that unrighteousness and replacing it with the righteousness of Christ. No work is required to accomplish that except to believe God's word that he will do that for you for the asking. That is indeed the good news of the Gospel.

Works only play a role in salvation in that they show us that we do indeed possess that righteousness, the righteousness of the children of God:

"Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God" (Philippians 2:14-15 NASB italics mine)

Rom 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

Can I find redemption UNconditionally OUTSIDE of Christ?