Ignoring Romans 2: An Error of Exegisis

[awaken]

No, the Spirit is working within us, even before we are "saved". It is His promptings that move us to repentance towards salvation in the first place. There is no salvation without repentance, and this first movement is from the Spirit. We call this preliminary to salvation - but nonetheless, it is still a work of God. There is some instrumental faith present before we officially proclaim that we believe.

Rarely does one experience and instantaneous movement to full faith. It is generally gradual. This gradual buildup of faith prior to accepting the Lord as Savior is a work of faith, as well.

And yes, we are saved by grace through faith - a faith that is working - and it is not of OURSELVES. It is begun by God. Is it really necessary that I must repeat this over and over again?

Regards

This is interesting to me...a lot of questions concerning this.
Are you saying the Holy Spirit is in us before we are saved?
I believe we all have a certain amount of faith before we are saved..and I believe our faith grows through our relationship with Christ. Isn't the faith we have before it grows.. enough to save us?

I see we are in a process of growing in faith..but is it the faith we grow into that saves us? What about someone that is saved one day and dies the next..is he saved with works or his faith growing?

I have questions about the repentance toward salvation..but I want to understand what you are saying with this first.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote francis: "You are mistaken, no one has literal eternal life while they are alive. We have Eternal Life's Presence, Jesus Christ, but WE do not have that quality, yet. The inheritance is received ONLY upon death, which, I am presuming, is in your future, not your past. You have not died yet, have you? "


Hi

Actually, yes I have died already, havn't you ?

In fact, I have died and been risen from the dead - Romans 6:3 - 5 . Spiritually

And I have eternal life in me = Christ in me.

The literal resurrection will take place soon, at the gathering up of the saints. And no, I do not have to die, in order to receive eternal life. That is not a requirement ! Like I said - I have eternal life abiding in me = Christ in me, the hope of glory.

In Adam all die, but death is not a requirment for eternal llife. Eternal life is already given by the grace of God, and it is a free gift.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote francis: "We HAVE a conditional promise. That as long as we remain in Christ, we WILL receive eternal life. "


Hi

More rambling I see !

The promise of God is sure ! Not unsure , as you propose !

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son. That whosoever believeth on him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[francisdesales]

Quote francis: "We HAVE a conditional promise. That as long as we remain in Christ, we WILL receive eternal life. "


More rambling I see !

childish... two short sentences does not a ramble make.

The promise of God is sure ! Not unsure , as you propose !

The promise is conditional. Didn't I say that? Oh, yes, I did...

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son. That whosoever believeth on him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

HIM WHO believes. NOW. Not last year... Conditional. You must continue to believe.

 

[francisdesales]

Actually, yes I have died already, havn't you ?

Not me, the OLD MAN died. I remain alive in Christ...

In fact, I have died and been risen from the dead - Romans 6:3 - 5 . Spiritually

And I have eternal life in me = Christ in me.

Yes, that's what I said.

The literal resurrection will take place soon...

WILL denotes FUTURE, not past.

Paul had not yet attained it, he wrote. No one does until AFTER they die - future, not past.

So don't tell me you have attained eternal life. Eternal life is present within those in Christ, but we don't attain it until after our physical death.

 

[francisdesales]

This is interesting to me...a lot of questions concerning this.
Are you saying the Holy Spirit is in us before we are saved?

The Spirit is working in us - but at a different level than when we are born from above. How ELSE do we come to faith in a gradual fashion? Before someone accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior, isn't there some sort of faith operative in that person? Isn't there the beginning of repentance, a desire to change, before the actual event? Is this a work of man???

I believe we all have a certain amount of faith before we are saved..and I believe our faith grows through our relationship with Christ. Isn't the faith we have before it grows.. enough to save us?

The Spirit moves within us the desire to accept Christ. The actual "tipping point" where we are saved does not determine "when" the Spirit's work first began. He is moving us even before we say "Yes" completely. I don't see that preliminary "faith" as our work, nor does my Catholic faith. True, there is some sort of cooperation, but we don't do it alone.

I see we are in a process of growing in faith..but is it the faith we grow into that saves us? What about someone that is saved one day and dies the next..is he saved with works or his faith growing?

No one is saved by works without faith in God. Is it the faith that we grow into? At what point is our faith sufficient to declare "Jesus is Lord" and accept Baptism? Apparently after the fact, we'll know, but if we look back at the process, I think everyone would agree that God was moving us TO THAT moment in time.

And of course, this is initial justification, not final justification. Final justification depends on REMAINING just in God's eyes as a result of our sanctified and God-given righteousness, one that ebbs and flows dependent upon the "soil", our response to grace.

Regards

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote francis: "We HAVE a conditional promise. That as long as we remain in Christ, we WILL receive eternal life. "


More rambling I see !

childish... two short sentences does not a ramble make.

The promise of God is sure ! Not unsure , as you propose !

The promise is conditional. Didn't I say that? Oh, yes, I did...

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son. That whosoever believeth on him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

HIM WHO believes. NOW. Not last year... Conditional. You must continue to believe.

You continue to add to the Word of God ! Where does it say, that "you must continue to believe" as a pre requisite ? And why would a Christian, who has Christ in them, stop believing ? I can understand getting side tracked from time to time. But I can't see one totally disbelieving after they have believed. I don't believe that is possible, nor do I see anything within scripture indicating that !

 

[francisdesales]

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son. That whosoever believeth on him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

HIM WHO believes. NOW. Not last year... Conditional. You must continue to believe.

You continue to add to the Word of God ! Where does it say, that "you must continue to believe" as a pre requisite ?

Is English your second language? I ask in seriousness, because the verse you provide tells those who can read that those WHO BELIEVETH. This is a present tense word, not BELIEVED.

Thus, you must continue to believe, in the present.

You may now apologize for your arrogant comments about "adding to the Word of God". It is much more fitting to say, in the future, that "I don't understand how you came up with that", rather than your clueless comments.

 

[awaken]

francisdesales,
You constantly challenge the doctrine that I was taught..and that is ok, because it makes me dig deeper!

I agree one work of the Holy Spirit is to convict men of their sin of unbelief (John 16:8)
But I believe he does it by the word.."So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"

My understanding of the different faiths..
Saving faith brings us to salvation.
Faith.. one of the fruits.. after salvation is really "faithfulness" ..this is for character..this is the growing faith-fruit grows!
The "gift of faith" is for power. This faith does not come until we are baptized by the Holy Spirit.

Faith is something that can be confusing at times. Sometimes we put all kinds of faith int he same sack and mix them up. We must differentiate between the three!

 

[Drew]

In Romans 10, Paul writes:

Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Now this might seem like a proof-text to the person who thinks, mysteriously, that Paul does not mean what he says in Romans 2 when he talks about a future justification by good works. After all, such a person will argue, Paul starts by describing “good works†righteousness and then contrasts it with the “righteousness that is by faithâ€. Is Paul really denying ultimate salvation by good works here? Of course not, otherwise he has contradicted his Romans 2 material. Paul here is quoting this Deuteronomy text:

The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. 7 The LORD your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. 8 You will again obey the LORD and follow all his commands I am giving you today. 9 Then the LORD your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The LORD will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your fathers, 10 if you obey the LORD your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

It is no accident that Paul refers to Deuteronomy 30 in Romans 10 as he tries to explain what "righteousness by faith" is all about.

In Romans 10, Paul states:

The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming

The author of Deuteronomy writes:

No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it

The intent of the parallelism is self-evident: the "word of faith" that Paul is proclaiming is this: believing the gospel mysteriously and wonderfully effects a transformation "such that we may obey". This is a beautiful elaboration of how what otherwise seems impossible for us - that we will indeed pass the justification by works criteria of Romans 2:7.

The big error is to think no one meets Romans 2:7 simply because Romans 3:11 (for example) seems to make it impossible that anyone will pass the 2:7 test. It is precisely because God, through the Spirit "brings the word very near to you; in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
Again, this will be ignored, as is Romans 2, and is Romans 8, by those who insist on denying ultimate justification by good works.

 

[Mysteryman]

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son. That whosoever believeth on him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

HIM WHO believes. NOW. Not last year... Conditional. You must continue to believe.

You continue to add to the Word of God ! Where does it say, that "you must continue to believe" as a pre requisite ?

Is English your second language? I ask in seriousness, because the verse you provide tells those who can read that those WHO BELIEVETH. This is a present tense word, not BELIEVED.

Thus, you must continue to believe, in the present.

You may now apologize for your arrogant comments about "adding to the Word of God". It is much more fitting to say, in the future, that "I don't understand how you came up with that", rather than your clueless comments.

You ramble too much for anyone to have an honest conversation with you ! You continue to make unwarranted comments , like this one - 'you must continue to believe" < which is not supported by scriptures !

The word "believe" or "believeth" is not necessarily a present tense word. The reason I can say this with total confidence, is because we who have Christ in us, were born with Christ in us. This is not something we aquire after we believe. God gave us of the Spirit of his Son in our hearts , crying Abba Father. We didn't earn it, any more than myself being a son of my biological father ! I am a son of God, because God chose to give me the seed Spirit of his Son. I can not believe then receive, but rather I believe because I have already received. So it is past tense !

And there is such a thing as predestination, just in case you didn't know.

 

[Drew]

You ramble too much for anyone to have an honest conversation with you ! You continue to make unwarranted comments , like this one - 'you must continue to believe" < which is not supported by scriptures !

The word "believe" or "believeth" is not necessarily a present tense word. The reason I can say this with total confidence, is because we who have Christ in us, were born with Christ in us. This is not something we aquire after we believe.

This sounds a lot like your "re-working" of the greek manuscripts to support a different reading of Romans 2:6-7 than has been given to us in all the translations.

Like in the Romans 2 context, you basically deny the translation - which in this case has "belief" rendered in the present tense - and seem to think that your theological understanding should prevail and that, therefore, we should not see this term in present tense after all.

Do you not think this is somewhat suspicious?

The greek word that has been rendered as believed is, according to the NET scholars, rendered in the present tense. The word is "pisteuwn". Are you saying that these scholars have made a mistake in their conclusion?

 

[Drew]

The chronological order in our initial justification has nothing to do with the requirments for entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven. This, again, is your confusion. You lump the two together. One is initially justified by faith, virtually, one could say, by faith alone. But it does NOT follow that this INITIAL justification leads to FINAL justification. MORE is required to attain this. Obedience and love. Hope in God. A faith WORKING in love. For THIS salvation, eternal life, we have been set upon a path, that BEGINS with initial justification. It doesn't end there. More must be "added" to it, more works of God. More response from man.

You have here identified - as have I - the real problem.

You and I follow Paul - who speaks of a present salvation "already achieved in principle" and a "future salvation" yet to be achieved. Is such a view more complicated than "salvation is one-timer"? Indeed it is. But we need to let Paul be Paul and follow him where he goes, not apply our own models and then screen out some of Paul's statements.

The bald truth is that gd and others simply ignore the texts that speak of future justification / salvation. gd has stated that Romans 2:6-7 has nothing to do with eternal life.

This is so obviously incorrect, its actually a bit difficult to know where to begin to respond to it. Imagine that someone wrote this:

To those dogs who do tricks, the master will give a bone.

Now what gd is saying is like saying “This statement has nothing to do with giving a dog a boneâ€.

What can you possibly say to such a statement?

 

[mondar]

MM, can I recommend you scroll back to the exegesis I posted of Romans 2. I think you will agree with what I said. You are correct, justification is a once and for all declaration that the believing sinner is just on the basis of Christs atonement.

 

[Drew]

MM, can I recommend you scroll back to the exegesis I posted of Romans 2. I think you will agree with what I said. You are correct, justification is a once and for all declaration that the believing sinner is just on the basis of Christs atonement.

Not according to Paul it isn't:

for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified

A clear and unambiguous statement that there is at least some sense in which justification is a future event.

 

[Mysteryman]

MM, can I recommend you scroll back to the exegesis I posted of Romans 2. I think you will agree with what I said. You are correct, justification is a once and for all declaration that the believing sinner is just on the basis of Christs atonement.

Hi mondar

Is this what you meant that I copied and am pasting here >>

Quote mondar:
" Of course Judaism seeks justification by the Mosaic Law. God will impartially judge both unsaved Jew, and pagan Gentile on the basis of works.

The context is a contrast between unsaved hypocritical Jews, and pagan Gentiles. The Jews seek justification by the Law of Moses, the pagan Gentiles seek justification by their own works and become as verse 14 says... "a law unto themselves." The whole issue, is that if Jew or Gentile, God judges impartially. He his judgment when he condemns the Jew, he uses the Law of Moses. His judgment on the heathen Gentiles, he uses their own conscience and the Law written on their hearts.

Notice the beginning of the context. The context begins with the claim that a certain man (the Jew) is "inexcusable," and "condemned." Because God impartially judges both unbelieving Jew, and Pagan Gentile."

Mysteryman replies:
Yes, I do agree with what you stated here. I might have worded it a little different, in that I would point out, that only those whom this is written too, are the called out of God. God is a God of the Jew and the Gentiles. And we do not make void the law, but we establish it. And there is only one way to establish the law, and that is to Love God and one another. And that everyone was under sin, for there was not one righteous. This is why God had to give us eternal life by grace. There is not one thing one could do to earn it.

 

[Mysteryman]

You ramble too much for anyone to have an honest conversation with you ! You continue to make unwarranted comments , like this one - 'you must continue to believe" < which is not supported by scriptures !

The word "believe" or "believeth" is not necessarily a present tense word. The reason I can say this with total confidence, is because we who have Christ in us, were born with Christ in us. This is not something we aquire after we believe.

This sounds a lot like your "re-working" of the greek manuscripts to support a different reading of Romans 2:6-7 than has been given to us in all the translations.

Like in the Romans 2 context, you basically deny the translation - which in this case has "belief" rendered in the present tense - and seem to think that your theological understanding should prevail and that, therefore, we should not see this term in present tense after all.

Do you not think this is somewhat suspicious?

The greek word that has been rendered as believed is, according to the NET scholars, rendered in the present tense. The word is "pisteuwn". Are you saying that these scholars have made a mistake in their conclusion?

I think you just need to take a closer look , before you jump to these conclusions of yours. It never pays to be predetermind in one's mind before checking out the scritpures. Which many people are guilty of doing before they even attempt to check out the scriptures. Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice. I know that I do not believe because I want to believe. I believe because I hear his voice revealing unto me. Thus being chosen from before the foundations of the earth. My hearing has been predestined, as my believing will be predestined, because God predestined that I would be one of the sheep. I believe accoriding to my free will. But one must remember, that God foreknew me that I would believe, so he included me as one of his sheep. Thus, in God's foreknowledge, I have already believed. All I do now, is believe that which God foreknew that I would, and that is why I am one of the sheep. God choose me, I didn't choose God. Once God chose me, which was from before the foundations of this earth, I believed = past tense ! I am a son of God, not because I believed. I believe, becasue I have the faith of Christ,which is in me. I am a chosen son of God, not by my choice. Although I am precious in his sight, because of the sacrifice of his Son, not only for me, but the world.

 

[Drew]

Of course Judaism seeks justification by the Mosaic Law. God will impartially judge both unsaved Jew, and pagan Gentile on the basis of works.

He will indeed. But what mondar seems to screen out is what the result of that judgement will be - eternal life.

The context is a contrast between unsaved hypocritical Jews, and pagan Gentiles. The Jews seek justification by the Law of Moses, the pagan Gentiles seek justification by their own works and become as verse 14 says... "a law unto themselves."

This is not correct. Look at the wider context:

14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,

The person familar with the Old Testament will know what this allusion to the Law being written on the heart is all about - it is about what will happen to God's people, not pagan Gentiles seeking salvation by their own works:

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

This is, of course, about believers, not pagan Gentiles.

And this:

"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, " I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

It is clear that Paul here is talking about the saved Gentile enabled by God to do good. Paul is not, as mondar appears to be asserting, talking about the pagan Gentile seeking justification by works apart from God.

 

[Drew]

Thus being chosen from before the foundations of the earth. My hearing has been predestined, as my believing will be predestined,...

Well you need to make a case for pre-destination - you cannot simply assert it.

 

[ivdavid]

Drew,

When you say that we are presently justified by faith and that this faith is needed to receive the Holy Spirit, what exactly does 'faith' mean to you here?

What does Jesus' blood justify?

What happens during regeneration?

What was the purpose of the Law? Are we bound to any defined law now?

What is salvation? What are we being saved from?

According to your belief, since all our good works are wrought by the Holy Spirit, then all who have the Spirit will be saved, right?

I'd like you to clarify these so I may be able to understand your beliefs better.