Ignoring Romans 2: An Error of Exegisis

[glorydaz]

The question pertained to the OT, not those who live during the NT.

Old or New Testament, man has always been saved the same way...by grace through faith.

 

[Mysteryman]

The question pertained to the OT, not those who live during the NT.

Old or New Testament, man has always been saved the same way...by grace through faith.

Hi glorydaz

Show us the faith you are talking about pertaining to those of the OT , that were not Jews, nor of Abraham.

 

[francisdesales]

Old or New Testament, man has always been saved the same way...by grace through faith.

Incomplete...

man has been saved by grace through faith WORKING IN LOVE.

there is no saving faith without love, my friend.

 

[glorydaz]

The question pertained to the OT, not those who live during the NT.

Old or New Testament, man has always been saved the same way...by grace through faith.

Hi glorydaz

Show us the faith you are talking about pertaining to those of the OT , that were not Jews, nor of Abraham.

Job would be one, and then there are others. Certainly the Bible records the history of the Jews, but there were lots of people around on this old earth besides the Jews.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

 

[glorydaz]

Old or New Testament, man has always been saved the same way...by grace through faith.

Incomplete...

man has been saved by grace through faith WORKING IN LOVE.

there is no saving faith without love, my friend.

There isn't a verse that says we're saved by love, is there? I've seen many that say we're saved by grace through faith. Faith is the means God chose for man to be saved. That love results is a plus, but it doesn't count for righteousness as faith does. Well, it does cover a "multitude of sins", but not all sin. Sin is not imputed to us because of faith. That's just the way God did it.

 

[francisdesales]

There isn't a verse that says we're saved by love, is there?

LOL!!!

Is there one that says faith alone saves??? Quite the opposite.

I am refering specifically to Galatians 5:6. He qualifies faith with Love. Not faith Alone.

However, on numerous occasions in the NT, the Bible show that faith and love are results of the man walking in God...

That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love Eph 3:17

Peace [be] to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Eph 6:23

Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 1 Thes 1:3

And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 1:14

Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 2 Tim 1:13

All that are with me salute thee. Greet them that love us in the faith. Grace [be] with you all. Amen. Titus 3:15

Hearing of thy love and faith, which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all saints; Philemon 5

In these examples, note, there is no priority given to faith over and above love. No suggestions that faith is of critical importance while love is secondary and "not needed" (as the word "alone" implies). Both are seen as equal and found within the brethern who are BEING saved (for heaven).

However, here is an interesting verse from your least favorite Biblical author...

Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? James 2:5

Notice, the promise of salvation is given ONLY to those who love Him... So yea, I see a number of places where, without love, one cannot go to heaven - be saved.

Faith is the means God chose for man to be saved.

Faith without love is dead, so clearly, God has something more in mind than "JUST" faith.

Does a dead faith save???

James says something quite interesting that is ALSO lost on you...

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. James 1:22-25

Just being a hearer, one of faith, is nothing. They deceive themselves. If you are not a doer, as well, you are a dreamer, one who "forgets what he is". Those who are doers shall indeed be blessed IN HIS DEED, not his faith/hearing.

That love results is a plus, but it doesn't count for righteousness as faith does.

Ridiculous.

ALL THE FAITH TO MOVE MOUNTAINS IS NOTHING WITHOUT LOVE.

What don't you get about that statement???

"Nothing" is not righteousness...!!!

Paul speaks of faith as salvific ONLY presuming that a person ACTS upon that faith. Otherwise, that faith is DEAD. NOTHING.

WITHOUT LOVE, faith is nothing. It is not salvific. Thus, sola fide is a joke, clearly unbiblical.

Regards

 

[Mysteryman]

Old or New Testament, man has always been saved the same way...by grace through faith.[/quote]


Hi glorydaz

Show us the faith you are talking about pertaining to those of the OT , that were not Jews, nor of Abraham.[/quote]

Job would be one, and then there are others. Certainly the Bible records the history of the Jews, but there were lots of people around on this old earth besides the Jews.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

[/quote]

glorydaz

Job had faith, but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about salvation. His wife and children died. So what about them, do they receive eternal salvation ? And by what faith does one receive eternal salvation of those who lived in the OT ?

 

[francisdesales]

glorydaz

Job had faith, but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about salvation. His wife and children died. So what about them, do they receive eternal salvation ? And by what faith does one receive eternal salvation of those who lived in the OT ?

Glorydaz is correct. The idea is that Christ's work, being God, can be retroactively applied to those who lived before the Christ in time. Those righteous souls were awaiting the promises of God. Christ's work is the promise once given, now being fulfilled - to Abraham and his descendants (and as Paul notes, his descendants in faith, not by national works of the Jewish Law). This is verified when Matthew describes the rising of the dead saints in Jerusalem and where Peter speaks of the "winnowing of hell", opening the gates of heaven to mankind - those who lived a life of from faith to faith (GD, note I said, LIVING a life of faith, a working and acting faith!)

Regards

 

[Mysteryman]

glorydaz

Job had faith, but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about salvation. His wife and children died. So what about them, do they receive eternal salvation ? And by what faith does one receive eternal salvation of those who lived in the OT ?

Glorydaz is correct. The idea is that Christ's work, being God, can be retroactively applied to those who lived before the Christ in time. Those righteous souls were awaiting the promises of God. Christ's work is the promise once given, now being fulfilled - to Abraham and his descendants (and as Paul notes, his descendants in faith, not by national works of the Jewish Law). This is verified when Matthew describes the rising of the dead saints in Jerusalem and where Peter speaks of the "winnowing of hell", opening the gates of heaven to mankind - those who lived a life of from faith to faith (GD, note I said, LIVING a life of faith, a working and acting faith!)




Hi

It would be in your best interest to read the OT again. There were many who knew nothing about the promises of God, in the OT !

So my question still stands -- Who in the OT , who is not a Jew, nor an offspring of Abraham, and knew nothing of the promises of God. Who and how are they saved by grace and faith, and by what faith ?

And if anyone thinks that one is saved by good works in the NT, then by shear logic, because God is a God that changes not, is also going to require good works by those in the OT as well ! ! And it ain't going to happen the way glorydaz and Drew and yourself project that it will happen ! Unless you all can provide scripture to support your view !

 

[francisdesales]

It would be in your best interest to read the OT again.

I intend on reading some commentaries on the minor prophets, thanks...

There were many who knew nothing about the promises of God, in the OT !

I thought we were talking about how God saves man, not about the promises given to Abraham.

So my question still stands -- Who in the OT , who is not a Jew, nor an offspring of Abraham, and knew nothing of the promises of God. Who and how are they saved by grace and faith, and by what faith ?

ANYONE seeking out God in faith is found pleasing in His eyes. There is no distinction made based upon nationality.

And if anyone thinks that one is saved by good works in the NT, then by shear logic, because God is a God that changes not

Exactly, God does not change. Thus, when God says we are saved by faith, a faith that is alive in love, then that also applies retroactively to the men and woman before the Son took on flesh. The way to God's heart is by faithful, loving obedience to His Law, whether written on tablets or in one's heart.

Regards

 

[Mysteryman]

I would like to talk to English speaking people for a moment. :D

How do those who lived during the OT times, who never knew of the promises of God, and never were of the lineage of Abraham. How do they receive eternal life that is either the same or different than us, who live within the NT time ? If it is different, please point this out for us with scripture. And if it is the same, again please point this out for us with scripture.

No people who ramble should even attemt to reply ! :yes

 

[francisdesales]

I would like to talk to English speaking people for a moment. :D

How do those who lived during the OT times, who never knew of the promises of God, and never were of the lineage of Abraham. How do they receive eternal life that is either the same or different than us, who live within the NT time ? If it is different, please point this out for us with scripture. And if it is the same, again please point this out for us with scripture.

No people who ramble should even attemt to reply ! :yes

Does GOD give eternal life to whom He wills, or does man grasp it?

God grants His gifts to whom He wills, regardless of the date...

English enough for you?

Regards

 

[Mysteryman]

I would like to talk to English speaking people for a moment. :D

How do those who lived during the OT times, who never knew of the promises of God, and never were of the lineage of Abraham. How do they receive eternal life that is either the same or different than us, who live within the NT time ? If it is different, please point this out for us with scripture. And if it is the same, again please point this out for us with scripture.

No people who ramble should even attemt to reply ! :yes

Does GOD give eternal life to whom He wills, or does man grasp it?

God grants His gifts to whom He wills, regardless of the date...

English enough for you?

Regards

Too much rambling ! :yes

 

[glorydaz]

Job would be one, and then there are others. Certainly the Bible records the history of the Jews, but there were lots of people around on this old earth besides the Jews.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

glorydaz

Job had faith, but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about salvation. His wife and children died. So what about them, do they receive eternal salvation ? And by what faith does one receive eternal salvation of those who lived in the OT ?

We aren't talking about Job's wife and children. Each person comes to the Lord on their own. All the OT saints were saved by grace through faith just as we are. They were saved by the future work of Christ just as we are saved by the past work of Christ. He was slain from the foundation of the world. The plan was in place from the beginning, the way is the same for all.

 

[glorydaz]

glorydaz

Job had faith, but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about salvation. His wife and children died. So what about them, do they receive eternal salvation ? And by what faith does one receive eternal salvation of those who lived in the OT ?

Glorydaz is correct. The idea is that Christ's work, being God, can be retroactively applied to those who lived before the Christ in time. Those righteous souls were awaiting the promises of God. Christ's work is the promise once given, now being fulfilled - to Abraham and his descendants (and as Paul notes, his descendants in faith, not by national works of the Jewish Law). This is verified when Matthew describes the rising of the dead saints in Jerusalem and where Peter speaks of the "winnowing of hell", opening the gates of heaven to mankind - those who lived a life of from faith to faith (GD, note I said, LIVING a life of faith, a working and acting faith!)

Regards

There is only one faith...a "working and acting faith" is a man-made term.
Faith is believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, and He imparts life to us based on grace through faith.

Also...our showing love does not save us. God showed His love by sending Jesus to die for us. That is what saves us. Nothing man does saves....it's grace alone...faith alone, and Jesus Christ alone.
God does the work, we accept the gift. Let's not take any of the glory for our salvation. That's just plain wrong.

 

[glorydaz]

Exactly, God does not change. Thus, when God says we are saved by faith, a faith that is alive in love, then that also applies retroactively to the men and woman before the Son took on flesh. The way to God's heart is by faithful, loving obedience to His Law, whether written on tablets or in one's heart.

Regards

We are saved by faith that is "alive in love"...true.
BUT, it's the faith of Jesus Christ...not ours.

Even while we were dead in sins, He saved us.
We had no "working faith" or love when we were saved.
We are saved by grace through faith...and that not of ourselves...it's a gift.

This is how you're missing out on the truth, brother. We only show forth the Love of God AFTER we have been quickened together with Christ. Please read these verses and reconsider what you have been saying.

Ephesians 2:5 - Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2 Timothy 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[glorydaz]

Hi

It would be in your best interest to read the OT again. There were many who knew nothing about the promises of God, in the OT !

So my question still stands -- Who in the OT , who is not a Jew, nor an offspring of Abraham, and knew nothing of the promises of God. Who and how are they saved by grace and faith, and by what faith ?

And if anyone thinks that one is saved by good works in the NT, then by shear logic, because God is a God that changes not, is also going to require good works by those in the OT as well ! ! And it ain't going to happen the way glorydaz and Drew and yourself project that it will happen ! Unless you all can provide scripture to support your view !

I find it quite comical I'm being lumped in with Drew and Joe on this one. :biglaugh

Grace and faith are all over the Old Testament. Abel was not an offspring of Abraham, and he was justified by faith. Noah was justified by faith. Many were shown grace and justified by faith. Although the Bible doesn't talk much about Adam and Eve, they did know God and listened to Him after the fall. I'm pretty sure they'll be in heaven with us. They certainly knew that the seed of the woman would crush the heel of the serpent, and God killed animals to make them clothes...the covering for their sin. Expand you thinking, Mysteryman. God has shown grace from the beginning...and that's how we're saved - by grace through faith.

 

[Mysteryman]

I find it quite comical I'm being lumped in with Drew and Joe on this one. :biglaugh

Grace and faith are all over the Old Testament. Abel was not an offspring of Abraham, and he was justified by faith. Noah was justified by faith. Many were shown grace and justified by faith. Although the Bible doesn't talk much about Adam and Eve, they did know God and listened to Him after the fall. I'm pretty sure they'll be in heaven with us. They certainly knew that the seed of the woman would crush the heel of the serpent, and God killed animals to make them clothes...the covering for their sin. Expand you thinking, Mysteryman. God has shown grace from the beginning...and that's how we're saved - by grace through faith.[/quote]

glorydaz:

You make assumption after assumption after assumption in your reply here !

Eternal life is by the grace of God - agreed ?

There were many in the OT that did not know of any of the promises of God pertaining to eternal life - agreed ?

Thus one can not have any faith pertaining to eternal life, if one does not know the promises of God pertaining to eternal life - agreed ?

So my question still stands - "By what faith does one have ,( and never knowing of any of the promises of God ) in order that they can attain eternal life by their faith ?

You are being lumped in with Drew and francis, because your thoughts are leaning in the same direction that they believe. Noah had faith, but he listened to God, because God told him he was going to destroy this earth and all living things by the flood. So Noah had knowledge of the impending flood. Everyone else did not ! Eight souls were saved, and no one else ! So in essence, you are suggesting that Noah was saved by his works. Which is what Drew and francis also claim. Faith without works is empty (dead).

Eternal life has nothing to do with our works ! Nor does it have anything to do with "our" faith.

We Christians believe, because eternal life is a free gift - past tense, not present tense, nor future tense, but past tense ! We were chosen from before the foundations of the earth , to be holy and without blame in Christ , in love. < Past tense


My question pertains to those who had no prior knowledge of eternal life whatsoever. You say that they receive eternal life by grace and their faith. How do you come to this conclusion about "their faith" ? ? And how does their faith have anything to do with the free gift of eternal life ? It shouldn't, but you keep claiming that it does. So please explain how this is possible, and logically explain your stance using scripture.

 

[francisdesales]

Exactly, God does not change. Thus, when God says we are saved by faith, a faith that is alive in love, then that also applies retroactively to the men and woman before the Son took on flesh. The way to God's heart is by faithful, loving obedience to His Law, whether written on tablets or in one's heart.

Regards

We are saved by faith that is "alive in love"...true.
BUT, it's the faith of Jesus Christ...not ours.

Faith "of" Jesus Christ? Jesus' faith in what saves us? Faith is something that we believe and is unseen. What is "unseen" to God? What faith did He have? "Faith" that the Father would raise Him? But elsewhere, JESUS is the power that raises Himself. I'm not too sure about this.

Secondly, if the faith of Jesus saves, than why isn't everyone saved? If justification is dependent upon Jesus without consideration of the individual's own faith received from God, then wouldn't every man be saved?

Perhaps it is the faulty KJV.

Go to Blue Letter bible and compare the KJV to every other translation (to include the NKJV). Look at Gal 2:16. All of them are interpreted "IN" Jesus, not "OF" Jesus... Perhaps the old English "of" means "in"? But in the 21st century English, the translation makes more sense to say "IN". Does the Greek demand "of" here?

Even while we were dead in sins, He saved us.
We had no "working faith" or love when we were saved.
We are saved by grace through faith...and that not of ourselves...it's a gift.

No, the Spirit is working within us, even before we are "saved". It is His promptings that move us to repentance towards salvation in the first place. There is no salvation without repentance, and this first movement is from the Spirit. We call this preliminary to salvation - but nonetheless, it is still a work of God. There is some instrumental faith present before we officially proclaim that we believe.

Rarely does one experience and instantaneous movement to full faith. It is generally gradual. This gradual buildup of faith prior to accepting the Lord as Savior is a work of faith, as well.

And yes, we are saved by grace through faith - a faith that is working - and it is not of OURSELVES. It is begun by God. Is it really necessary that I must repeat this over and over again?

This is how you're missing out on the truth, brother. We only show forth the Love of God AFTER we have been quickened together with Christ. Please read these verses and reconsider what you have been saying.
Ephesians 2:5 - Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2 Timothy 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

I have read these verses and I still see you are incorrect.

The chronological order in our initial justification has nothing to do with the requirments for entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven. This, again, is your confusion. You lump the two together. One is initially justified by faith, virtually, one could say, by faith alone. But it does NOT follow that this INITIAL justification leads to FINAL justification. MORE is required to attain this. Obedience and love. Hope in God. A faith WORKING in love. For THIS salvation, eternal life, we have been set upon a path, that BEGINS with initial justification. It doesn't end there. More must be "added" to it, more works of God. More response from man.

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity. 1 Cor 13:13

Faith is the first of the supernatural gifts God gives us. But it will not be alone, it will not be the last gift. Without faith, you are nothing (1 Cor 13:2). Note, Paul nowhere says that faith generates love. GOD generates Love, it also is a gift freely given - and because of the Spirit, we eventually freely return.

Perhaps the problem with your paradigm is that you think faith generates love, when the Scriptures never say this - and as I have stated, say otherwise. There are NUMEROUS instances that show a community of faith NOT living in love. Have you read 1 Corinthians?

To attribute to the sinful Christians a situtation where they are "not really saved" is to revert back to an idea where man must be absolutely perfect before he is saved! We are in Grace and you bring us back to the Law with this idea...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

You make assumption after assumption after assumption in your reply here !

Eternal life is by the grace of God - agreed ?

There were many in the OT that did not know of any of the promises of God pertaining to eternal life - agreed ?

Thus one can not have any faith pertaining to eternal life, if one does not know the promises of God pertaining to eternal life - agreed ?

Faulty logic based upon the second argument being an incorrect definition.

It is not necessary to "know of the promise pertaining to eternal life" to have faith in God and that God would provide. Case in point? THE JEWS THEMSELVES!!!

A huge chunk of the OT is based upon promises that are understood to pertain to the TEMPORAL - in other words, the Jews did not believe in life after death, so the "promises" are not made onto eternal life, in THEIR minds, but to earthly promises of land and prosperity. The Jewish belief in the afterlife came only later, and even this was not uniform - the Saduccees in the time of Christ did not buy into the idea...

Noah had faith, but he listened to God, because God told him he was going to destroy this earth and all living things by the flood. So Noah had knowledge of the impending flood. Everyone else did not ! Eight souls were saved, and no one else ! So in essence, you are suggesting that Noah was saved by his works. Which is what Drew and francis also claim. Faith without works is empty (dead).

Notice, you are providing me an example of what I say above. Thanks.

Noah's faith is not based upon a promise of eternal life, is it...

Eternal life has nothing to do with our works !

It certainly does. We are judged based upon them. GOD is not judged whether He provided enough "movement" in our hearts and minds to do good deeds. Without Him, we can do nothing, so judgment is based upon our "Yes" or "No" to the Will of the Father.

Those who remain in Christ will invariably choose "YES". They will have eternal life, based upon their "YES", inspired by God's Spirit.

Without those works, your faith is DEAD!!! DEAD faith cannot save, as we have made abundantly clear.

Nor does it have anything to do with "our" faith.

We Christians believe, because eternal life is a free gift - past tense, not present tense, nor future tense, but past tense !

You are mistaken, no one has literal eternal life while they are alive. We have Eternal Life's Presence, Jesus Christ, but WE do not have that quality, yet. The inheritance is received ONLY upon death, which, I am presuming, is in your future, not your past. You have not died yet, have you?

We HAVE a conditional promise. That as long as we remain in Christ, we WILL receive eternal life.

We were chosen from before the foundations of the earth , to be holy and without blame in Christ , in love. < Past tense

We AS A COMMUNITY are chosen, placed into the Church. Your thoughts lead down the slippery slope of double predestination - where God chooses INDIVIDUALLY who will go to heaven and who will go to hell, before they were even born.

Regards