Ignoring Romans 2: An Error of Exegisis

[Mysteryman]

Let's be clear - there is absolutely no problem with agreeing with Paul as follows:

When, in the present, a person places faith in Jesus, their ultimate future justification, which is by "good works" as Romans 2:6-7 says, is assured.

You guys ignore Romans 2:6-7, pure and simple.

Here is the text that so many of you simply refuse to accept. It is given in many translations. They are all equally clear - the granting of eternal life is based on "good works":

NET: He 1 will reward 2 each one according to his works: 3 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality,

NIV: God "will give to each person according to what he has done". To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life

NASB: who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

NLT: will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.

BBE: Who will give to every man his right reward: To those who go on with good works in the hope of glory and honour and salvation from death, he will give eternal life:

NRSV: For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

NKJV: who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

All of you who deny ulitmate salvation by good works, please tell us how you justify screeing out this statement from Paul.

Drew

Do you know the difference between --- salvation and eternal life ?

And let me ask you, how did anyone who lived in the OT , who was not an Isrealite attain eternal life by their works ?

 

[Drew]

2. And assuming that each one is justified on a variable judgement criteria of works, what does '30-mile' mean to me Scripturally? What is that standard or law? Isn't the only standard or law specified under the new covenant, the law of faith?

I trust that you see how my response to your point number 1 addresses this. I will repeat something that cannot be emphasized enough - there is nothing problematic with a "varianble judgement criteria of works precisely because it is the job of the Holy Spirit to meet the criteria for each person. If it were up to each of us to figure out "how much is enough", there would indeed be an issue here.

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

And if that 30-mile isn't defined absolutely, then how can I walk an 'unknown' number of miles still resting in the assurance of the reward - isn't it by faith then?

I believe I have already addressed this. Yes, "faith is enough", but only because faith in enough to result in the gift of the Spirit. But Paul means what he says in Romans 2:6-7: eternal life is granted according to deeds. Surely, you agree that Romans 2:6-7 says this, don't you? I am, frankly astonished to the point of incredulity that at least two posters baldly deny the obvious - that Romans 2:6-7 make the assertion that eternal life is granted according to deeds. It is one thing to say "yes, this what the text says, but Paul has somehow prefaced his statement so that we can reasonably understand that he is talking about what would be the case if it were possible to be justified by good works.

And Paul nevers says anything that would cause us to doubt that he means what he says. Yes, Paul denies justification by "works", but these are the works of the Law of Mses, not good works.

It is profoundly troubling here that people claim that the text of these two verses do not say that what they obviouusly say - eternal life is granted according to deeds.

 

[glorydaz]

To those who deny Romans 2:6-7, which clearly asserts that eternal life is granted according to good works (do not pretend that it says otherwise!) - please note this from the Terms of Service:

The bible is the inspired, infallible and authoritative Word of God.

Therefore Romans 2:6-7 is inspired and infallible.

So why don't you people believe it?

And, thank God, there is someone here who can do the exegesis properly. This is also from the TOS:

[quote:301rd961]......justification by grace through faith, apart from the works of the law.

Correct, somebody knows how to read Romans - is the works of the Law (of Moses, obviously) that do not justify. This is not, of course, a statement that good works do not justify.[/quote:301rd961]
Please put up the KJV...they are one of the few translations that don't replace a comma with words that lead people astray.

Paul makes it clear there is more than one "law". To claim the Jews can't be saved by good works, but Gentiles can is to ignore that Paul makes it clear there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

 

[francisdesales]

Paul makes it clear there is more than one "law". To claim the Jews can't be saved by good works, but Gentiles can is to ignore that Paul makes it clear there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles.
"Romans 2:14"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Indeed, that works of love save, not works of the law (Mosaic).

Paul's point here is that the Jews' position of superiority does not carry over to judgment. God judges men impartially, based upon how they respond to His grace to do good works in faith. Coupled with Romans 3, it should be obvious to the reader that the MOSAIC law does not enable anyone to be saved. If so, people would have to become circumcised. Acts 15 declared this was not necessary, although many Jewish Christians had problems with that. THUS, the need to reiterate to the large Jewish Christian population of Rome. NO ONE had to follow the Mosaic Law to be saved. People were saved by faith in God, Jews or Gentiles, a faith that leads to obedience (Romans 1, 16), a faith that even Gentiles can receive, a faith that enabled the Spirit to lead one to perform works according to the Law written upon new hearts, not hearts of stone...

Regards

 

[Drew]

Indeed, that works of love save, not works of the law (Mosaic).

Paul's point here is that the Jews' position of superiority does not carry over to judgment. God judges men impartially, based upon how they respond to His grace to do good works in faith. Coupled with Romans 3, it should be obvious to the reader that the MOSAIC law does not enable anyone to be saved.

Exactly correct. Let's look in more detail at one text from Romans 3:

Here is Romans 3:27-28 in the NASB:

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

What are these works of the Law that Paul thinks cannot justify? Are they “good works†in general, or are they the practices or “works†of the Torah, the Law of Moses?

Paul is clearly talking about the Torah here, and not “good worksâ€. And so the “boast†here (verse 27) is not the boast of the person who thinks he can climb to heaven by a ladder of good works, it is instead the boast of the Jew, who thinks that following Torah will justify him.

That this is the case is borne out by verse 29, a verse which makes no sense if "good works" or a "or obedience to a general law" are in view in verse 28, but makes perfect sense if the works of Torah are what Paul is talking about:

29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,

Paul is amplifying the implications of verse 27 and 28 and is clearly focusing on how the Jew and Gentile are both members of God’s family. In verses 27 and 28, he has written that “works†do not justify. In verse 29, it becomes clear that these are the works of Torah since, obviously, it is by doing the works of Torah that the Jew could boast "God is God of the Jews only". What marks out the nation Israel from the Gentile? Possession and doing of Torah, of course. Not good works.

 

[awaken]

Do you know the difference between --- salvation and eternal life ?

And let me ask you, how did anyone who lived in the OT , who was not an Isrealite attain eternal life by their works ?

 

[Drew]

Do you know the difference between --- salvation and eternal life ?

And let me ask you, how did anyone who lived in the OT , who was not an Isrealite attain eternal life by their works ?

I am generally not responding to MM or glorydaz. However, if you (awaken, or any others for that matter) would read a response to this material from MM, I will be happy to take a shot.

I assume that perhaps you might, because of the "popcorn" symbol. Please let me know...

 

[Mysteryman]

Romans 10: 6 and 7 - "But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven ? " ----- "Or, who shall descend into the deep? "

Romans 10:8 - "But what saith it ? The Word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the Word of faith , which we preach"

 

[awaken]

Do you know the difference between --- salvation and eternal life ?

And let me ask you, how did anyone who lived in the OT , who was not an Isrealite attain eternal life by their works ?

I am generally not responding to MM or glorydaz. However, if you (awaken, or any others for that matter) would read a response to this material from MM, I will be happy to take a shot.

I assume that perhaps you might, because of the "popcorn" symbol. Please let me know...

I am interested to hear what the difference in savation and eternal life is..
and who could attain eternal life by their works in the OT that was not a Jew..

It does not matter who answers it! Just waiting (with my popcorn) for the answer..

 

[Drew]

I am interested to hear what the difference in savation and eternal life is..

I believe that there is basically no difference. The person who is "saved" (or attains salvation) is the person who is "rescued" or "saved" from God's judgement. So a saved person always gets eternal life. So I do not think there is a substantial difference.

and who could attain eternal life by their works in the OT that was not a Jew.

Well how about Abraham?

Paul's repeated claim is that Abraham's "true family" is a group made up of Jews and Gentiles. Paul identifies this true family as being the heirs of the "promise". Paul begins by describing the circumstances under which Abraham was credited with a status of righteousness (the word “righteousness here is the same word which in Romans 2:13 is associated with the receipt of eternal life – you can challenge me on this if you like), but he does so in the context of a question about whether it is only the Jew who benefits from this or whether Gentiles also benefit.

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!

So we discern that Paul is going somewhere with emphasis on the specific circumstances under which Abraham was credited. His point is clearly about the Jew – Gentile divide as will be clearly seen shortly. Shortly afterward, Paul writes this:

13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world,

Although frequently missed, the reference here to “Law†is clearly a reference to the Torah. Paul is filling in the point hinted at in verses 9 to 10 and adding covenant specificity – the promise made to Abraham was not made in virtue of his being under Torah, that is, in virtue of his membership in national Israel. No, the promise of being an heir of the world was delivered to Abraham, and his offspring, whoever they turn out to be, outside his status as an ethnic Jew. Paul clearly cares about this distinction. He then continues and tells us who the offspring of Abraham, and therefore the true heirs to the covenantal promises, including ultimate salvation, really are:

14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations.â€

In verse 14, Paul denies that it is the Jew – those who live by Torah – who are the real heirs of the covenantal promises made to Abraham. And in verse 16, Paul clearly identifies who those heirs really are – both Jew and Gentile who share Abraham’s faith.

Circumcision (v. 10) and Torah (v13 and v14) are the hallmark identifiers of national Israel. When Paul says the promises were delivered to Abraham before he came under these markers, he (Paul) is clearly saying that it was not in his status as an ethnic Jew that he received these promises and, following this same line of thinking, it is not the Jews who are the covenant heirs, but rather the Jew plus Gentile family of faith.

 

[Mysteryman]

The lack of knowledge when it comes to the different understanding of the words - "saved" - "salvation" - "save" - and the words - "eternal life" have caused no end of confusion among christian sects.

Matt. 1:21 - "he shall save his people from their sins"

I Corinth. 1:21 - "to save them that believe"

Saved , means "for" or "from"

Romans 5:9 - "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from the wrath through him"

On the other hand, "eternal life" , means eternal = forever !

Romans 6:23 - "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" --- And since it was God's buisness whom he predestined unto eternal life. < Ephesians 1:3 - 14.

You can not loose a gift from God , such as eternal life, because of the simple fact that it is eternal, and not temporary !

I John 2:25 - "And this is the promise that he hath promised us, eternal life"



One more verse pertaining to all of mankind >

I Timothy 4:10 - "For there we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the Loving God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe"

Only those whom God takes their name out of one of the two books of life will end up in the second death.

 

[awaken]

and who could attain eternal life by their works in the OT that was not a Jew.

Well how about Abraham?

Paul's repeated claim is that Abraham's "true family" is a group made up of Jews and Gentiles. Paul identifies this true family as being the heirs of the "promise". Paul begins by describing the circumstances under which Abraham was credited with a status of righteousness (the word “righteousness here is the same word which in Romans 2:13 is associated with the receipt of eternal life – you can challenge me on this if you like), but he does so in the context of a question about whether it is only the Jew who benefits from this or whether Gentiles also benefit.

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!

So we discern that Paul is going somewhere with emphasis on the specific circumstances under which Abraham was credited. His point is clearly about the Jew – Gentile divide as will be clearly seen shortly. Shortly afterward, Paul writes this:

13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world,

Although frequently missed, the reference here to “Law†is clearly a reference to the Torah. Paul is filling in the point hinted at in verses 9 to 10 and adding covenant specificity – the promise made to Abraham was not made in virtue of his being under Torah, that is, in virtue of his membership in national Israel. No, the promise of being an heir of the world was delivered to Abraham, and his offspring, whoever they turn out to be, outside his status as an ethnic Jew. Paul clearly cares about this distinction. He then continues and tells us who the offspring of Abraham, and therefore the true heirs to the covenantal promises, including ultimate salvation, really are:

14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations.â€

In verse 14, Paul denies that it is the Jew – those who live by Torah – who are the real heirs of the covenantal promises made to Abraham. And in verse 16, Paul clearly identifies who those heirs really are – both Jew and Gentile who share Abraham’s faith.

Circumcision (v. 10) and Torah (v13 and v14) are the hallmark identifiers of national Israel. When Paul says the promises were delivered to Abraham before he came under these markers, he (Paul) is clearly saying that it was not in his status as an ethnic Jew that he received these promises and, following this same line of thinking, it is not the Jews who are the covenant heirs, but rather the Jew plus Gentile family of faith.

Lost me The question was how was a non jew in the OT saved..are you saying it is faith that saved both Jew and Gentile..in the OT and the NT?

 

[glorydaz]

People were saved by faith in God, Jews or Gentiles, a faith that leads to obedience (Romans 1, 16), a faith that even Gentiles can receive, a faith that enabled the Spirit to lead one to perform works according to the Law written upon new hearts, not hearts of stone...

Regards

Once again we see that an admission....faith "leads" one to good works. The good works do not justify us before God...they are but a result of salvation. Cause and effect. Those who have been justified by faith have been ordained by God to do good deeds. Good works didn't save the Jews, and good works don't save the Gentiles. All are saved by grace through faith, and good deeds follow after.

 

[glorydaz]

I am generally not responding to MM or glorydaz. However, if you (awaken, or any others for that matter) would read a response to this material from MM, I will be happy to take a shot.

Is this behavior becoming of a believer? It's one thing to decide you won't respond to someone, and it's quite another to keep announcing it. That's simply sowing discord among the brethern.

There's a Proverb that speaks to this.

These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

 

[Drew]

Lost me The question was how was a non jew in the OT saved..are you saying it is faith that saved both Jew and Gentile..in the OT and the NT?

I am not sure how I lost you. The material I provided is an argument - Paul's argument actually - that Abraham was not "a Jew" when he received the promise of salvation. This is, I think, exactly what you were asking here:

and who could attain eternal life by their works in the OT that was not a Jew

Let's remember: if we take Paul seriously, Abraham will stand with the rest of us at a future judgement where eternal life will be rendered according to works. But in the Romans 4 text, we are told that Abraham will indeed be declared righteous at that judgement. This is entirely consistent with the argument I have been advancing.

 

[Mysteryman]

Lost me The question was how was a non jew in the OT saved..are you saying it is faith that saved both Jew and Gentile..in the OT and the NT?

I am not sure how I lost you. The material I provided is an argument - Paul's argument actually - that Abraham was not "a Jew" when he received the promise of salvation. This is, I think, exactly what you were asking here:

and who could attain eternal life by their works in the OT that was not a Jew

Let's remember: if we take Paul seriously, Abraham will stand with the rest of us at a future judgement where eternal life will be rendered according to works. But in the Romans 4 text, we are told that Abraham will indeed be declared righteous at that judgement. This is entirely consistent with the argument I have been advancing.

Drew

Abraham was someone special, in that God called out Abraham. Abraham was also called our father of faith.

That which seperated Jews from all other nations, was the circumcision of their men. Of which Abraham was the first !

Now , how about answering the question honestly, pertaining to those who do not know God like Abraham did , or the Jews, or all of Israel ?

 

[glorydaz]

Lost me The question was how was a non jew in the OT saved..are you saying it is faith that saved both Jew and Gentile..in the OT and the NT?

Man has always been saved the same way...by grace through faith.

We see righteousness is attained through faith. The Jews sought that righteousness by the works of the law, but it can only be attained through faith.

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 1But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Both Jews and Gentiles are justified by faith.

Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

The children of the promise are those of faith...Abraham was justified by faith, and we are justified by faith. There is such an effort being made to confuse the issue and add works into the mix, but the Word is clear.

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

 

[Mysteryman]

Lost me The question was how was a non jew in the OT saved..are you saying it is faith that saved both Jew and Gentile..in the OT and the NT?

Man has always been saved the same way...by grace through faith.

We see righteousness is attained through faith. The Jews sought that righteousness by the works of the law, but it can only be attained through faith.

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 1But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Both Jews and Gentiles are justified by faith.
[quote="Romans 3:30":1jkotqwc]Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

The children of the promise are those of faith...Abraham was justified by faith, and we are justified by faith. There is such an effort being made to confuse the issue and add works into the mix, but the Word is clear.

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

[/quote:1jkotqwc]


glorydaz

The question pertained to the OT, not those who live during the NT.

 

[francisdesales]

Once again we see that an admission....faith "leads" one to good works. The good works do not justify us before God...they are but a result of salvation. Cause and effect.

Yet again, you force a false chronology based upon your incorrect definition...

We are NOT speaking of initial justification in the eyes of God. We are speaking of entering heaven. THAT salvation. And good works are absolutely necesary, over and over again, they are the BASIS by which we are JUDGED FOR HEAVEN - or HELL... Romans 2 makes this clear.

Faith, without love, does not save. So HOW could sola fide be true? Faith without love is NOTHING!

On the other hand, Love cannot come without faith in God.

Both are necessary to enter the Kingdom, and one without the other cannot save.

THIS, my friend, is fatal to sola fide. We aren't talking about which comes first, we are talking about ALL the necesary components that save men to heaven. It is perfectly clear that all the faith to move MOUNTAINS is not enough to save, so faith, even being first, is pointless without love.

Why do you continue to ignore this fact of Scriptures? WHO CARES what comes first? BOTH are gifts from God, for heaven's sake. WE CANNOT LOVE without God's moving our wills. We cannot have faith without the same God. FAITH is not a "catalyst" without God! Thus, faith is not an automatic conveyor belt that saves without God. We have already given examples of a non-salvific faith.

Those who have been justified by faith have been ordained by God to do good deeds.

Receiving the gift of faith ALSO is ordained by God. What is the difference??? Are you saying that faith always generates love???

It clearly doesn't.

Men are justified in God's eyes over and over again, depending upon their faith working in love. Or not. Abraham was justified at least three different times over the course of his life. We are not talking about leagal status, but a relationship that exists, that continues to grow or ebb.

Good works didn't save the Jews, and good works don't save the Gentiles. All are saved by grace through faith, and good deeds follow after.

Good works in God DID save the Jews who were considered Righteous by God. Jesus and Paul are not introducing a new Gospel, but reiterating what the righteous already knew, whether pagan or Jew - that God desires those who believe in Him and seek Him out - led by the Spirit Himself. Again, you avoid the meaning of Romans 1-3, which is not that works do not save, but that works WITHOUT GOD do not save... The works OF THE LAW, circumcision, does NOT save, nor does lacking circumcision save. It is when the HEART is circumcised, that pre-NT people were saved, faith working in love.

I do not think you understand the point of Romans 2.

 

[glorydaz]

Once again we see that an admission....faith "leads" one to good works. The good works do not justify us before God...they are but a result of salvation. Cause and effect.

Yet again, you force a false chronology based upon your incorrect definition...

We are NOT speaking of initial justification in the eyes of God. We are speaking of entering heaven. THAT salvation. And good works are absolutely necesary, over and over again, they are the BASIS by which we are JUDGED FOR HEAVEN - or HELL... Romans 2 makes this clear.

I'll address you post one point at a time. Here is your first error. The Judgment.

There will be a judgment alright. Those not written in the Lamb's Book of Life will be judged on their deeds. They will be found wanting because good deeds do not cover sin. Those written in the Lamb's Book of Life will be rewarded according to their deeds. The believers stand before the Bema Seat of Christ. We do not come under condemnation, as the Word makes clear.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

We are His sheep...we will not be cast out.

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

We have peace because we will stand before the Bema Seat of our Lord.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

The Lord chastens us as children...that we be not condemned with the world.

But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

ALL TRESPASSES have been forgiven for those who have been "quickened together with Him."

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

When God looks at us...He sees Jesus who made the one offering and has perfected forever those who are sanctified.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.