Ignoring Romans 2: An Error of Exegisis

[mondar]

What is really amazing is that you feel no obligation at all to actually make a Scriptural case for the views which you hold, as if you are somehow "above" having to ground your position in the Scriptures.

If you are going to take the position that you claim here, I suggest that you actually need to engage the relevant texts and arguments not merely "declare" what you see to be truth.

So, again, what texts do you see as supporting the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the believer?

Wait, so what part of me quoting verses from Hebrews 10 did I not make a scriptural case for the views I hold.....?

I dont want to be a cheerleader here, but she is right. You did not respond to her arguments, but merely began throwing accusations, and your accusations were wrong.

 

[Drew]

What is really amazing is that you feel no obligation at all to actually make a Scriptural case for the views which you hold, as if you are somehow "above" having to ground your position in the Scriptures.

If you are going to take the position that you claim here, I suggest that you actually need to engage the relevant texts and arguments not merely "declare" what you see to be truth.

So, again, what texts do you see as supporting the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the believer?

Wait, so what part of me quoting verses from Hebrews 10 did I not make a scriptural case for the views I hold.....?

I dont want to be a cheerleader here, but she is right. You did not respond to her arguments, but merely began throwing accusations, and your accusations were wrong.

My assertion is clearly correct in respect to the matter of imputation - she has not provided a Biblical argument for the doctrine of the imputation of the righteoousness of Christ to the believer. From her own words:

I'm not talking about imputing Christ's righteousness on us,...

But you are more than welcome to present your case for the belief that the righteousness of Chist is imputed to the believer.

 

[LaCrum]

You are asking me to explain "your" model back to you. Since it woud be speculation for me to try to infer what you mean, why don't you make your case as to why you think the Scriptures support the notion that Christ's righteousness is in any way imputed or ascribed to the Christian.

“My†model? By that do you mean the model of the Bible?

The NT is impossible to understand without understanding the New Covenant.

So, what I think you’re saying, is that you don’t understand the workings of a covenant relationship?

In a nutshell, a covenant is the closest relationship that can be formed between two people (marriage is the closest thing we have today, although it is a weak comparison to what a covenant used to stand for). When you understand the ceremony involved when two people enter into covenant, it makes sense why Jesus did what he did (came to earth, the covenant meal, shed his blood, etc).

So now once two people are in covenant, they share in everything the other has. So now as Christians we share in Christ’s blessings, in his strength, in his peace, in his relationship to the Father, etc. Not only that, when two people entered into covenant, the two involved become the “covenant headsâ€, and thus the rest of their descendents, forever and ever, would also be in covenant with each other. An good OT example is the covenant between David and Jonathon.

In the NT this New Covenant was between God and Jesus (on behalf of humanity) since a covenant can’t be formed between two parties who are enemies, which the human race is with God because of sin.

Thus, when we choose, by faith, to enter into this NC that Christ is the head of, God no longer views us as His enemies, but when He sees us, His Covenant Partner, he sees Jesus, our Covenant Head.

So, I am “imputed†with Christ’s righteousness to the extent that He is my Covenant Head, and it’s His relationship and standing with the Father that determines mine.

This is what all of Hebrews is about, talking about the New Covenant. Heck this is what the entire Bible is about, pointing to and receiving the New Covenant.

Hebrews 9:15 15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

 

[LaCrum]

Understanding the New Covenant is also imperative for understanding Romans 8:

Romans 8:1-17

“1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[g] And by him we cry, "Abba,[h] Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.â€

Those who are Christians share in the Spirit and thus care co-heirs with Christ.

 

[Drew]

You are asking me to explain "your" model back to you. Since it woud be speculation for me to try to infer what you mean, why don't you make your case as to why you think the Scriptures support the notion that Christ's righteousness is in any way imputed or ascribed to the Christian.

“My†model? By that do you mean the model of the Bible?

Please - we all know that you and I have fundamentally different interpretations of what the Bible is saying. So we both need to make an actual case.

So, what I think you’re saying, is that you don’t understand the workings of a covenant relationship?

No. I am not saying that. I am simply asking you to explain your position.

In a nutshell, a covenant is the closest relationship that can be formed between two people (marriage is the closest thing we have today, although it is a weak comparison to what a covenant used to stand for). When you understand the ceremony involved when two people enter into covenant, it makes sense why Jesus did what he did (came to earth, the covenant meal, shed his blood, etc).

So now once two people are in covenant, they share in everything the other has. So now as Christians we share in Christ’s blessings, in his strength, in his peace, in his relationship to the Father, etc. Not only that, when two people entered into covenant, the two involved become the “covenant headsâ€, and thus the rest of their descendents, forever and ever, would also be in covenant with each other. An good OT example is the covenant between David and Jonathon.

In the NT this New Covenant was between God and Jesus (on behalf of humanity) since a covenant can’t be formed between two parties who are enemies, which the human race is with God because of sin.

Thus, when we choose, by faith, to enter into this NC that Christ is the head of, God no longer views us as His enemies, but when He sees us, His Covenant Partner, he sees Jesus, our Covenant Head.

I entirely disagree with this last paragraph. Please make the appropriate Scriptural case. In this regard, what you are saying in these paragraphs is not a case, it is a statement of a position. That’s fine as it is, but I would ask that you defend this material from the Bible. I actually agree with some of it, it is the last paragraph that I think is entirely unsustainable in the Scriptures.

More specifically, please tell us, from the Bible, why it is that “when God sees us, He sees Jesusâ€: And please do not simply claim “that’s how covnenants work†– please make a case.

 

[Drew]

Those who are Christians share in the Spirit and thus care co-heirs with Christ.

Let me ask you ask you a question which gd has not answered:

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

Question 1: To whom is Paul speaking?

Drew's answer: To Christian believers
LaCrum answer: Please insert your answer here

Question 2: Verse 13 promises something to those who put to death the misdeeds of the body through the Spirit. What is it that is promised to such people? (Remember unless you want to toss a hand grenade into the sentence, we have Paul promising something to, yes, those who put to death the misdeeds of the body through the Spirit).

Drew's answer: Eternal life (escaping from the mortality of the body)
LaCrum answer: Please insert your answer here

Now I admit - I cheated, copying my answers directly from Paul.

 

[glorydaz]

Well, at least you admit what you are doing - bending words to mean something other than what they mean.

Paul says what he says gd. He tells what happens to sin. It is condemned. And as much as you may not like it, the word "katakrino" has clear punishment implications. Paul says sin in condemned. Now you are free to say "I disagree with Paul". But you are not free to take "punishment out of katakrino".

So what do you do? In Romans 2, you simply do not read the english properly. Here, you take a word and re-define it so that we do not have God executing condemnatory punishment on sin on the cross. I know that you need to see Jesus as the target of God's condemnation, but why not let Paul tell us what he wants to tell us?
Sin is the target of God's wrathful condemnation on the cross.

Yes, why don't we let Paul tell us what he wants to tell us. Is Paul talking about "punishing sin" in Romans 8, or is he telling us about the spiritual man vs. the natural man of the flesh? He mentions condemned sin in the flesh...which means sin has no more dominion over us. You like to ignore what Paul is saying in order to claim he's saying something else. You do the same with Romans 2 and Eph. 2 and Romans 4. I'm not surprised to see you doing it here, as well. He is talking about the power of sin in our lives, and you accuse me of bending the Word.

So let's look at what Paul is saying here, shall we? Shall we see if he's talking about punishing sin, as you suggest, or if he's talking about something else entirely, as I maintain.

Notice..."What the law could not do.." What was it the law could not do? Remember, the key words here are "condemned sin in the flesh".

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The law could not justify or sanctify or make anyone perfect.
The law could not take away sin's power over us...it could not make us dead to sin.

For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

From verse one through verse 12, Paul gives us a list of facts.
Then along comes verse 13 and you use it to contradict everything else Paul has said.

Red is the spiritual man...
Green is the natural man...

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus , who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us , who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Now look up to verse three and tell me who condemned sin in the flesh. It was Jesus Christ on the cross.
When we're in Christ, the Spirit that dwells in us mortifies the flesh for us...that's why Paul says, through the Spirit in verse 13. We already have life because we are in Christ. If we serve sin, we are none of His...still a natural unregenerate man.

Do we still react in the flesh...of course. We see it every day right here on this board. The first and easiest step in our spiritual walk is stop committing blatant sin. The hard part is walking in the spirit without being soul-led. We think we're so smart, and we think we're so righteous, and we think we need to do for the Lord instead of waiting on him and following His lead. That isn't being a spiritual man. That's walking in the flesh. It has to be a work of the Spirit to mortify the flesh, because man's old nature is not just committing open sin, but it's reliance on self. Self serving, self aggrandizement, self righteousness. If those people don't have life, as I said before, there would be none left standing to boast.

The spiritual man is led by the Spirit, how then can we "mortify" the flesh? Our "old man" is crucified with Christ...we didn't crucify ourselves. That's the work of the Spirit. Our flesh has been crucified...he that is dead is freed from sin. If we've been regenerated, we've been raised into newness of life. We live. The natural man (read all 12 verses above) serves sin. The spiritual man does not serve sin because we are dead to sin. Christ condemned sin in the flesh at the cross.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

If we try to "mortify" the deeds of the flesh, and don't allow the Holy Spirit to do the work in us, we end up leaving our own selfish ways intact and spend all our time pointing out where other people fail. Pride will reign supreme. Just look at how frustrated you get with me when I dare to question something you've said. And, yet, you don't see what you're doing. We can't count on our old man to mortify anything. That's why we're called to humble ourselves in the sight of the Lord. We aren't to claim a righteousness that isn't there....for nothing of the flesh is righteous, and that include "self". Man's ego is always the last to fall. That's what I believe Paul is talking about in this chapter. Not, who will lose their salvation if they walk after the flesh. Paul is talking about the saved and the unsaved. Not the saved that fall away, but the saved who are still battling the flesh. We're to reckon ourselves dead to sin so we can be led by the Spirit and show forth Christ in us instead of self.

 

[paulr1025]

Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
IF YOU'LL BE LED!
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
WALKING BY FAITH MEANS TO WALK IN THE WORD OF GOD, REGARDLESS OF THE REJECTION OF SCOFFERS AND WELL MEANING MEN WHO HAVE BEEN DARKENED BY THEIR OWN UNDERSTANDING!
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY "FAITH" (WALKING IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE WORD OF GOD)
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES AND RATHER THAN DIE TO SELF, THEY DO DEEDS TRYING TO ESTABLISH RIGHTEOUSNESS, BUT IT IS ONLY WHEN CHRIST DOES THE DEEDS THROUGH SACRIFICIAL BODIES, IS IT CONSIDERED RIGHTEOUS!
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
HUMBLE OBEDIENCE IN THEIR THOUGHT AND FEELINGS (HEART)
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Rom 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
CHRIST IN "US" WILL FULFILL THE LAW AS ALWAYS, BUT ONLY WHEN WE "DECREASE", IE TAKE THE BASKET OF EGO OFF OF THE LAMP!
Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24 For the name (CHARACTER) of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
CHRIST IN "US" WILL KEEP THE LAW, PROVIDING "WE" ALLOW HIM TO BY TAKING THE KINGDOM BY FORCE (MATT 11:12)
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

THIS IS SIMPLY SAYING, WHAT WE CANNOT DO BY OUR OWN MEANS AND STRIVING, CHRIST WILL DO THROUGH US, WHEN WE DIE TO SELF AND CHOOSE TO BE DOERS OF THE WORD.
MOST IMPORTANTLY, AS A DOER OF THE WORD, WE MUST BE WILLING TO CONFESS TO OTHERS WHEN WE FAIL TO DIE TO SELF, AS THAT IS THE WORD OF GOD ALSO, AND THIS MEANS BEING WILLING TO DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER.
ENCOURAGE, REBUKE, EXHORT, REPROVE, FORGIVE, AND ALL OF THIS IS WRAPPED UP IN ONE WORD...
AGAPE!

God is agape, and those who agape know God, and those who do NOT agape, do NOT know God for God is Agape!
The goal is to "be one" as "YHVH our Elohim" is One, and that is only possible when Christ lives, and "i" (ego) is put to death!

Agape,

paul


Grace + Truth = AGAPE

Joh 1:1 In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and THE WORD WAS GOD.

1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the agape that God has for us. GOD IS AGAPE, and he who abides in agape abides in God, and God in him.

Jhn 1:14 And the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH.

 

[stranger]

Those who are Christians share in the Spirit and thus care co-heirs with Christ.

Let me ask you ask you a question which gd has not answered:

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

Question 1: To whom is Paul speaking?

Drew's answer: To Christian believers
LaCrum answer: Please insert your answer here

Question 2: Verse 13 promises something to those who put to death the misdeeds of the body through the Spirit. What is it that is promised to such people? (Remember unless you want to toss a hand grenade into the sentence, we have Paul promising something to, yes, those who put to death the misdeeds of the body through the Spirit).

Drew's answer: Eternal life (escaping from the mortality of the body)
LaCrum answer: Please insert your answer here

Now I admit - I cheated, copying my answers directly from Paul.

Hi Drew,

Q1 'brothers' in Christ
Q2 'life'

Given the text, a relatively straightforward question - the answer to the question is in the text.

Believers can walk in the Spirit or after/in the flesh. They do not walk in the Spirit AND in the flesh simultaneously. Now the miserable sinner theology teaches that the believer remains a sinner all the days of his life. He is then finally freed from sin when he departs this life. I was once asked what would I call this - my answer was 'living in sin'. It is certainly not the Christian norm that Paul, and other NT writers set forth as walking in newness of life in the Spirit.

 

[glorydaz]

Really, Drew...why do you bother to ask her when you will just ignore all the proof (it's already been offered and ignored countless times)? You demand proof and then throw out any scripture that plainly makes the case while bringing up verses that in no way state what you claim. You don't listen...so why ask?

This is not an accurate characterization of the transcript of this thread.

Neither you, nor anyone else has supplied an actual scriptural argument for the doctrine of the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the believer. Yes, you have provided texts, and yes you have made assertions. But there has been nothing that would be considered to be an actual case.

And, of course, no one has, in any sense engaged my argument about 1 Corinthians 5:21

These are not opinions gd, these are facts that are clear from the actaul transcript of this thread.

TEXTS? You mean Scripture? One would think providing Scripture would do the trick.

I have to say, Drew, if the Word doesn't convince you, no argument will. God is so righteous, He can allow no unrighteousness in His sight. He is light...unrighteousness is darkness. Even with our sins removed, we are still filthy rags to God, for all men sin and COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD. There is none righteous...no not one. It had to be the righteousness of Christ or there would be none who could stand before the throne of God.

Why do you think He's called The Lord our righteousness?

In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

By one offering, He has perfected for ever. We can't come before the throne of God without being PERFECT. Hence we had to have Christ's righteousness accounted to us.

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.....For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Here we see righteousness imputed...

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

We see righteousness is a gift.

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Here's Job...who was "perfect and upright and feared the Lord".

If I wash myself with snow water, and make my hands never so clean; Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch, and mine own clothes shall abhor me.

The righteousness of God by faith of Christ UNTO all and UPON all that believe.

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Christ in us...this is certainly not our righteousness....he comes when we are yet sinners.

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Not having our own righteousness...

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[stranger]

deleted

 

[Drew]

Yes, why don't we let Paul tell us what he wants to tell us. Is Paul talking about "punishing sin" in Romans 8, or is he telling us about the spiritual man vs. the natural man of the flesh? He mentions condemned sin in the flesh...which means sin has no more dominion over us.

No Gd.

I do not wish to be rude, but surely you realize that that statement: "X is condemned" does not mean "X has no dominion over us". It means what it means: sin is condemned.

You simply deform concepts to suit your purposes. If a headline read "OJ Simpson condemned in court for wife's murder", this is not, repeat not, anything other than a statement of judgement and punishment. It is not, certainly, a statement about OJ not having power over us.

You cannot do this - take words and bend their meaning entirely out of shape. Paul says that sin is condemned and I take him at word. You, apparently, do not and try to re-define the concept of "condemnation" to mean "dis-empowerment". That is simply not legit.

Imagine if I took the concept of "dog" and argued that it really denotes that furry animal that goes "meow". People would not allow for it. Yet this is what you are doing with the concept of condemn. It means what it means - judicial punishment.

 

[stranger]

Drew wrote:

Neither you, nor anyone else has supplied an actual scriptural argument for the doctrine of the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the believer. Yes, you have provided texts, and yes you have made assertions. But there has been nothing that would be considered to be an actual case.

And, of course, no one has, in any sense engaged my argument about 1 Corinthians 5:21

These are not opinions gd, these are facts that are clear from the actaul transcript of this thread.

That would be 2 Cor 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[Drew]

Drew wrote:

Neither you, nor anyone else has supplied an actual scriptural argument for the doctrine of the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the believer. Yes, you have provided texts, and yes you have made assertions. But there has been nothing that would be considered to be an actual case.

And, of course, no one has, in any sense engaged my argument about 1 Corinthians 5:21

These are not opinions gd, these are facts that are clear from the actaul transcript of this thread.

That would be 2 Cor 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Hello stranger:

I have already provided a detailed argument as to why this text should not be read as sustaining the view that Christ's righteousness is imputed or ascribed to the believer.

 

[Drew]

Even with our sins removed, we are still filthy rags to God, for all men sin and COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD. There is none righteous...no not one.

Surely you are aware of this statement:

What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

and this one....

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son,

gd, surely you must realize that the Bible teaches that, through Christ and the Spirit, we are delivered from the state you describe. Why do you ignore such passages and cling to the manifestly unBiblical view that we cannot possibly generate good works sufficient for justification?

I am really interested gd, how do you "explain to yourself" how, one the one hand, you embrace passages that speak of the sinfulness of man to defend your view that it is impossible for man to be justified by good works, while entirely ignoring a passage like the "conform" passage above which says we can become like Jesus.

It had to be the righteousness of Christ or there would be none who could stand before the throne of God.

Manifestly circular reasoning - you simply assume that, in order to be declared righteous in the lawcourt setting, we must get some else's righteousness.

And yet, of course, every day, throusands of people in courtrooms around the world are declared to be "in the right" without the judge saying "you get the righteousness of some other person".

 

[francisdesales]

God is so righteous, He can allow no unrighteousness in His sight. He is light...unrighteousness is darkness. Even with our sins removed, we are still filthy rags to God, for all men sin and COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD.

Where is the transformation, the new creation that God promised, if you still remain a filthy rag???

Two problems.

First, you fail to realize the difference means by which God judges a man. Under the Law or under Grace. God, in His bountiful mercy and the love of His Son's work, has the opportunity to accept our imperfect righteousness. Such is the choice of a Loving Father, just as we accept the imperfect love of our children and do not remove their inheritance because they once didn't take out the trash... Children under the Law must be perfect, since any failure is a failure to maintain the Law. But we are under Grace, thus, there is no need of someone else's perfect righteousness applied to us. Nor does the Bible state such an alien righteousness is applied to "our account"....

Secondly, the Bible is quite clear that men are born from above, transformed, MADE holy and righteous by God. for example:

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5:19

Just as sin is an ontological fact in every man as a result of the first Adam, we are given an internal righteousness tha tis ours as a result of the second Adam, Jesus Christ. Note the structure of Romans 5, the comparison made by Paul. If sin is "infused" within us, original sin, into our nature, SO TO is righteousness when we are born from above. We must also be infused with righteousness as a result of the work of Christ.

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Cor 3:17-18

We are changed, although some prefer the filthy rags...

And of course, the fact that you refuse to confront:

forensic imputation neither offers an adequate answer as to why God requires faith from the individual to attain justification, nor does it explain why God requires a certain quality of faith (living) IF an alien righteousness is applied to us in the first place. Sanctification and repentance are of no use in this scheme, making the Word of God null and void.

There is none righteous...no not one.

LOL! Do a word search of "righteous", and you'll find numerous people described as righteous. The "no one is righteous" is refering to wicked. No one wicked seeks God, is righteous, etc... Are you suggesting Paul hadn't read the OT?

Noah, Job, Abel, Joseph, Zechariah, the prophets (Mat 13), etc...

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Jesus) is righteous. 1 John 3:7

You misunderstand Paul and do not take into account what other writers of Scriptures plainly say...

It had to be the righteousness of Christ or there would be none who could stand before the throne of God.

Those under the Law. Can you cite me where Scriptures says those under grace must be perfect before they can stand in front of God???

Here we see righteousness imputed...
Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

We are called righteous, but says nothing about alien righteousness. We are called righteous because we are MADE righteous by God Himself. We are a new creation, with new hearts, not stone.

Romans 4:22-24
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Same as above. We are called righteous, and ARE righteous as we have faith working in love.

James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Same as above. HIS (Abraham's) faith is what sets in motion God's decision to call Abraham a friend of God. God identifies Abraham AS righteous because he is indeed DOING righteous things by the grace of God.

We see righteousness is a gift.

Romans 5:17-19

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Yes, MADE righteous, not just "called" righteous!

It is a gift, that is indeed true.

Here's Job...who was "perfect and upright and feared the Lord".
Job 9:30-31

If I wash myself with snow water, and make my hands never so clean; Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch, and mine own clothes shall abhor me.

That doesn't mean he was not righteous in God's eyes, only that he was humble and saw that he fell short of HIS idea of what God demanded. God desires that we seek Him out and believe in Him, not that we be absolutely perfect. We cannot. As a merciful God, we see countless examples of His loving kindness and mercy - an application of which does not require perfection on our part. Were the Israelites perfect - and then ONLY at that point did God see them worthy of saving???

The righteousness of God by faith of Christ UNTO all and UPON all that believe.
Romans 3:22

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Mistranslation... Other Scriptures support MAN'S FAITH IN JESUS that determines whether one is saved or not. If we take this to its logical conclusion, man can have a dead faith and not seek out God, not even think there is a God, WHILE the "faith of Jesus" saves them!!!

Clearly, not Christian.

Christ in us...this is certainly not our righteousness....he comes when we are yet sinners.

Romans 8:10

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

We have life because Christ INFUSES within us righteousness. It is now given to me, mine, something without which, I could not have life. I still do not see how any of this tells me I am covered and my sins remain...

Not having our own righteousness...
Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Righteousness given to us by God by faith... Yes. It doesn't state that God sends Christ to pretend I am righteous. It is not my OWN, that implies I brought it into existence. Clearly, no one can do that, we are given this righteousness as a gift, entirely and freely. It is not a debt God owed us. So it cannot be my OWN righteousness.

Signature line...

 

[LaCrum]

I entirely disagree with this last paragraph. Please make the appropriate Scriptural case. In this regard, what you are saying in these paragraphs is not a case, it is a statement of a position. That’s fine as it is, but I would ask that you defend this material from the Bible. I actually agree with some of it, it is the last paragraph that I think is entirely unsustainable in the Scriptures.

More specifically, please tell us, from the Bible, why it is that “when God sees us, He sees Jesusâ€: And please do not simply claim “that’s how covnenants work†– please make a case.

It’s pointless to continue this discussion with you because it’s impossible to understand the Covenant Relationship described in the Bible if you have no historical understanding of the workings of them in ancient Israeli society. It’s by the historical understanding that what Jesus does and the significance of it makes sense. That’s why this isn’t laid out in the Bible like I did for you, they already knew how Covenants worked! They knew what they meant! That’s why scripture MUST be read in light of this understanding. Understand Covenants, understand the Bible.

Not only that, I challenge you to name ONE respectable Biblical scholar who argues that Paul argued ultimate justification by works. Just one! You’ll find that people who have a lot more knowledge then you on this matter would never claim that Paul believes in salvation by works.

"But now, apart from law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus.
Then what becomes of boasting? It is excluded. By what law? By that of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law."

 

[francisdesales]

It’s pointless to continue this discussion with you because it’s impossible to understand the Covenant Relationship described in the Bible if you have no historical understanding of the workings of them in ancient Israeli society. It’s by the historical understanding that what Jesus does and the significance of it makes sense. That’s why this isn’t laid out in the Bible like I did for you, they already knew how Covenants worked! They knew what they meant! That’s why scripture MUST be read in light of this understanding. Understand Covenants, understand the Bible.

I agree that one must know about the Covenantal relationship between God and His People. This knowledge should be your first clue that God is establishing a familial relationship, not a legal one alone. This should tell you that God is MAKING something new, NOT JUST declaring it by a legal trick. It seems like you are on the right track, now just put this together. If God is establishing a familial relationship where He is really changing men, making them holy, WHAT is the need for a "foreign imputed righteousness" given to us while WE remain "filthy rags"???

Not only that, I challenge you to name ONE respectable Biblical scholar who argues that Paul argued ultimate justification by works. Just one! You’ll find that people who have a lot more knowledge then you on this matter would never claim that Paul believes in salvation by works.

Again, "salvation by works" is not the argument you are fighting against. The term is a loaded word, of course, with a lot of emotional attachment. But the basic idea is that "my works earn salvation". Clearly, NO ONE is arguing that here. The point is that one must consider that our works, moved by the Spirit, are indeed the basis of God's judgment. This is crystal clear esp. in the OT, for example:

O [thou that art] named the house of Jacob, is the spirit of the LORD straitened? [are] these his doings? do not my words do good to him that walketh uprightly? Micah 2:7

The self-righteous precursors of OSAS, who think God cannot condemn them for their wicked ways, are clearly mistaken, as God answers the naysayers by re-affirming that He does "good to him that walks uprightly", NOT because they were given an inheritance - Christians take note...

God wants a valid, internal disposition, a spiritual circumcision of the heart. THAT is righteousness that God will accept from His children, those who seek Him with a pure heart, a faith working in love. Paul certainly does not say that our deeds are overlooked by God as a result of the work of Christ on the cross. Just as in the OT, MORE is expected. We have a responsibility to use what we have been given, just as the Jews were. Faith alone, enough to move mountains, is nothing. Paul.

Regards

 

[Drew]

It’s pointless to continue this discussion with you because it’s impossible to understand the Covenant Relationship described in the Bible if you have no historical understanding of the workings of them in ancient Israeli society.

Nice try.

It is up to you, LaCrum to actually make a case. You seem to expect to be able to make declarations and not support them Biblically and / or historically.

Don't blame me for your failing to not make an actual case. So again I will ask: Please make an actual Biblical / historical argument as to why we should accept the doctrine of the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the believer.

Understand Covenants, understand the Bible.

Welll then, by all means, make your case about covenants. But, please, we are not fools. You cannot simply assert what you believe to be the case about covenants and expect us to take your word for it.

Not only that, I challenge you to name ONE respectable Biblical scholar who argues that Paul argued ultimate justification by works. Just one!

Nicholas Thomas Wright, former bishop of Durham, and well-respected New Testament scholar.

You’ll find that people who have a lot more knowledge then you on this matter would never claim that Paul believes in salvation by works.

Appeal to authority - a well-known error in debate.

 

[LaCrum]

I agree that one must know about the Covenantal relationship between God and His People. This knowledge should be your first clue that God is establishing a familial relationship, not a legal one alone. This should tell you that God is MAKING something new, NOT JUST declaring it by a legal trick. It seems like you are on the right track, now just put this together. If God is establishing a familial relationship where He is really changing men, making them holy, WHAT is the need for a "foreign imputed righteousness" given to us while WE remain "filthy rags"???

I addressed this several pages back, but we are declared “holy†in God’s sight in sense that now we can enter into the inner-most sanctuary without having to have the High Priest go in once a year and offer a sacrifice on our behalf as atonement since this was what Jesus did. I also agree that we are in the process of becoming “holy†or “whole†or more like Jesus, but this is a process that can only start to occur after the first declaration of God calling us “holy†occurs, or after the point of believing and being saved. I’m not arguing that when we die we won’t be judged for our actions on earth because of Christ’s sacrifice, the NT makes reference that there will be a separate judgement for believers who are already written in the book of life based upon their actions, and that we will be rewarded accordingly.

So in sum, Jesus’s sacrifice and his righteousness allows us to be in God’s presence, we can have the same relationship with God that Jesus did on earth, while the Holy Spirit works at, for the reminder of our lives, making us more Christ-like. So we are both declared holy and becoming holy, but they type of “holy†that is being discussed is different because it is spoken of in different tenses. (See Hebrews 10)

Again, "salvation by works" is not the argument you are fighting against. The term is a loaded word, of course, with a lot of emotional attachment. But the basic idea is that "my works earn salvation". Clearly, NO ONE is arguing that here. The point is that one must consider that our works, moved by the Spirit, are indeed the basis of God's judgment. This is crystal clear esp. in the OT, for example:

O [thou that art] named the house of Jacob, is the spirit of the LORD straitened? [are] these his doings? do not my words do good to him that walketh uprightly? Micah 2:7

The self-righteous precursors of OSAS, who think God cannot condemn them for their wicked ways, are clearly mistaken, as God answers the naysayers by re-affirming that He does "good to him that walks uprightly", NOT because they were given an inheritance - Christians take note...

God wants a valid, internal disposition, a spiritual circumcision of the heart. THAT is righteousness that God will accept from His children, those who seek Him with a pure heart, a faith working in love. Paul certainly does not say that our deeds are overlooked by God as a result of the work of Christ on the cross. Just as in the OT, MORE is expected. We have a responsibility to use what we have been given, just as the Jews were. Faith alone, enough to move mountains, is nothing. Paul.

Regards

Actually that is not true, Drew has said in multiple posts that works are necessary for ultimate salvation.

Again, I absolutely believe we will be judged and held accountable by God for what we did with the gifts, talents and abilities He gave us while on earth. I agree that Paul does not say Christ over looks our works once we become a Christian. The judgement Christians will face is not for justification, it’s not for punishment, Christ already took that judgement for us, that’s what his work on the cross was. Romans 8:1 - “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesusâ€.

There are actually several judgments that will occur, but as Christians, we are judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Romans 14:10, 2 Cor. 5:10) which actually uses the Greek word (bema) having to do with rewards, which is where people will be rewarded according to works. So Christians who did not do much for Christ, will be rewarded accordingly, and those who did great things for Christ, will also be rewarded accordingly.

1 Corinthians 3:9-15
“For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.