Ignoring Romans 2: An Error of Exegisis

[Drew]

The judgement Christians will face is not for justification, it’s not for punishment, Christ already took that judgement for us, that’s what his work on the cross was. Romans 8:1 - “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesusâ€.

I think that Romans 8 is clear - the reason why there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus is precisely what Paul goes on to say in the remainder Romans 8 - that we are now free to walk in the way of the Spirit and this will give life to our mortal bodies. If anything, Romans 8 supports ultimate salvation by good works. Note the structure of the argument that includes part of Romans 7:

1. The Law of Moses, sin, and death are a problem (Romans 7);
2. Therefore, there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1);
3. For God has solved the Romans 7 problem and enabed us to walk in the Spirit and get life (Romans 8:1-13).

You are doing what so many do - take Romans 8:1 and simply "claim" that it denies ultimate salvation by good works when, in fact, context shows that it is actually part of an argument for ultimate salvation by works.

I will ask you again LaCrum - you have not answered me yet on this:

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

Question 1: To whom is Paul speaking?

Drew's answer: To Christian believers
LaCrum answer: Please insert your answer here

Question 2: Verse 13 promises something to those who put to death the misdeeds of the body through the Spirit. What is it that is promised to such people? (Remember unless you want to toss a hand grenade into the sentence, we have Paul promising something to, yes, those who put to death the misdeeds of the body through the Spirit).

Drew's answer: Eternal life (escaping from the mortality of the body)
LaCrum answer: Please insert your answer here

Now I admit - I cheated, copying my answers directly from Paul.

 

[Drew]

1 Corinthians 3:9-15
“For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Seeing this text as denying ultimate salvation by good works, again, cannot be reconciled with the context. Paul is specifically addressing what will happen to church leaders who are not faithful to their commission. If they do not lead in the right way, they will not lose ultimate salvation for that specific failure. Again, the details count - they show that Paul is focused on church leaders:

What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds.....

This text is not a denial of ultimate salvation by good works. It is a specific warning to those who are responsible for building the church. But Paul tempers his warning saying that failure to lead properly will not lead to ultimate loss. But this is decidedly not a denial of what he clearly says in Romans 2, Romans 8, and 2 Corinthians 5 - that all people will stand before God and be judged by good works, with eternal life in the balance.

 

[francisdesales]

I agree that one must know about the Covenantal relationship between God and His People. This knowledge should be your first clue that God is establishing a familial relationship, not a legal one alone. This should tell you that God is MAKING something new, NOT JUST declaring it by a legal trick. It seems like you are on the right track, now just put this together. If God is establishing a familial relationship where He is really changing men, making them holy, WHAT is the need for a "foreign imputed righteousness" given to us while WE remain "filthy rags"???

I addressed this several pages back, but we are declared “holy†in God’s sight in sense that now we can enter into the inner-most sanctuary without having to have the High Priest go in once a year and offer a sacrifice on our behalf as atonement since this was what Jesus did. I also agree that we are in the process of becoming “holy†or “whole†or more like Jesus, but this is a process that can only start to occur after the first declaration of God calling us “holy†occurs, or after the point of believing and being saved. I’m not arguing that when we die we won’t be judged for our actions on earth because of Christ’s sacrifice, the NT makes reference that there will be a separate judgement for believers who are already written in the book of life based upon their actions, and that we will be rewarded accordingly.

You know, I read this, and for the most part, agree with it. I am sorry I didn't reply to it, I was busy addressing someone else on this thread with my summarizing comments.

I never said that we are not imputed with righteousness. The problem is that is where Protestantism ends - (forgeting about INFUSED righteousness) and adds that we are imputed with an alien righteousness...

Yes, we are imputed with righteousness - God CALLS us righteous, He declares us so.

But it is MORE. He MAKES us righteous. There is no legal fiction, here.

Now, is God able to make a new creation that is - as His first creation was - good? God made the first creation "GOOD". But now, classic Protestantism will not have it, and must INVENT an alien righteousness that is applied to us, makeng MOOT the entire point of sanctification. I would think you are on the right track with our being made holy to recognize that we do not need to devise a "perfect righteousness" from someone else, since we are entered into a familial covenant, not just a legal one that requires a legal trick...

So in sum, Jesus’s sacrifice and his righteousness allows us to be in God’s presence, we can have the same relationship with God that Jesus did on earth, while the Holy Spirit works at, for the reminder of our lives, making us more Christ-like. So we are both declared holy and becoming holy, but they type of “holy†that is being discussed is different because it is spoken of in different tenses. (See Hebrews 10)

It doesn't follow that because "Jesus allows us to be viewed differently" by the Father that HIS righteousness is covering OUR righteousness in Jesus! Rember, Jesus told us that OUR righteousness must exceed the Pharisees, then he proceeds to tell us in Mat 5-7 HOW this is possible - by internal disposition of faith and love to God as we act towards others...

Remember what John wrote, which I have quoted already? We are as righteous as HE is righteous when we walk in righteousness...

There is no need to be perfectly righteous in God's eyes, WHEN we are part of His family!!!

But the basic idea is that "my works earn salvation". Clearly, NO ONE is arguing that here. The point is that one must consider that our works, moved by the Spirit, are indeed the basis of God's judgment. This is crystal clear esp. in the OT, for example:

O [thou that art] named the house of Jacob, is the spirit of the LORD straitened? [are] these his doings? do not my words do good to him that walketh uprightly? Micah 2:7

The self-righteous precursors of OSAS, who think God cannot condemn them for their wicked ways, are clearly mistaken, as God answers the naysayers by re-affirming that He does "good to him that walks uprightly", NOT because they were given an inheritance - Christians take note...

God wants a valid, internal disposition, a spiritual circumcision of the heart. THAT is righteousness that God will accept from His children, those who seek Him with a pure heart, a faith working in love. Paul certainly does not say that our deeds are overlooked by God as a result of the work of Christ on the cross. Just as in the OT, MORE is expected. We have a responsibility to use what we have been given, just as the Jews were. Faith alone, enough to move mountains, is nothing. Paul.

Actually that is not true, Drew has said in multiple posts that works are necessary for ultimate salvation.

Drew has clearly distinguished between works of love and works to earn salvation...

Again, I absolutely believe we will be judged and held accountable by God for what we did with the gifts, talents and abilities He gave us while on earth. I agree that Paul does not say Christ over looks our works once we become a Christian. The judgement Christians will face is not for justification, it’s not for punishment, Christ already took that judgement for us, that’s what his work on the cross was. Romans 8:1 - “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesusâ€.

The punishment for sin is hell, LaCrum... Are you saying Christ is right now in hell, paying the punishment due for sins against God???
There is no condemnation for those IN CHRIST, determined on whether one obeys the commandments, according to One John.

Entirely contrived, based upon the a priori idea that OSAS and we cannot fall away. Through that lenses of twisting Scriptures, one must invent a "second" judgment, one for Christians, and one for other people. However, Christ never mentions such a multiple application. We are simply judged on the love we give to others. Being in Christ, we cannot help BUT love.

And don't forget, judgment means more than applying God's wrath, it also means to be weighed and determined whether we are found worthy or not. All will receive that judgment, nowhere does Jesus suggest that His disciples will not be weighed and judged worthy or not. The Gospels have a number of parables of the servants being judged. Are you a servant of God??? In the parables, the one found unworthy is given NOTHING. he is cast out into the night. That is not a "lesser reward"! That's HELL! Separation from God.

You'll be judged, then...

Regards

 

[Drew]

Yes, we are imputed with righteousness - God CALLS us righteous, He declares us so.

But it is MORE. He MAKES us righteous. There is no legal fiction, here.

Now, is God able to make a new creation that is - as His first creation was - good? God made the first creation "GOOD". But now, classic Protestantism will not have it, and must INVENT an alien righteousness that is applied to us, makeng MOOT the entire point of sanctification.

I agree. Neither fds nor I is denying that we are imputed with righteousness. I have been crystal clear about this (I cannot speak for fds since I have not read each of his posts in detail). However, some seem incapable of getting their minds around the concept that we can be imputed righteousness without that righteousness being somebody else's righteousness. Which is decidedly odd since everyday in this world thousands of people are declared "in the right" in courtrooms and not one of them expects to be told that "you have been given such and such a person's righteousness".

No - what these peoples are "imputed with" is simply the righteousness of the acquitted defendent in the Hebrew lawcourt. If one studies the Old Testament, one sees that in the Hebrew lawcourt, the judge decides in favour of one party over the other. And the "winning" party is declared to be righteous - in the right. And, of course, the question "whose righteousness does he get?" is never raised.

Which is precisely the point. When you come to Paul insisting that imputed righteousness must be somebody's else's righteousness, the seeds of a circular argument have already been sewn.

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, we are imputed with righteousness - God CALLS us righteous, He declares us so.

But it is MORE. He MAKES us righteous. There is no legal fiction, here.

Now, is God able to make a new creation that is - as His first creation was - good? God made the first creation "GOOD". But now, classic Protestantism will not have it, and must INVENT an alien righteousness that is applied to us, makeng MOOT the entire point of sanctification.

I agree. Neither fds nor I is denying that we are imputed with righteousness. I have been crystal clear about this (I cannot speak for fds since I have not read each of his posts in detail). However, some seem incapable of getting their minds around the concept that we can be imputed righteousness without that righteousness being somebody else's righteousness. Which is decidedly odd since everyday in this world thousands of people are declared "in the right" in courtrooms and not one of them expects to be told that "you have been given such and such a person's righteousness".

No - what these peoples are "imputed with" is simply the righteousness of the acquitted defendent in the Hebrew lawcourt. If one studies the Old Testament, one sees that in the Hebrew lawcourt, the judge decides in favour of one party over the other. And the "winning" party is declared to be righteous - in the right. And, of course, the question "whose righteousness does he get?" is never raised.

Which is precisely the point. When you come to Paul insisting that imputed righteousness must be somebody's else's righteousness, the seeds of a circular argument have already been sewn.

Somebody else's? :crazy

You can't even say His name, can you?
You know you're stealing glory from God, by claiming His righteousness is now yours.

I'm thinking you believe you could have stood outside when the death angel passed over and God would have smiled and winked.

 

[Drew]

[Somebody else's? :crazy

You can't even say His name, can you?
You know you're stealing glory from God, by claiming His righteousness is now yours.

I'm thinking you believe you could have stood outside when the death angel passed over and God would have smiled and winked.

Enough!

Moderators - please put an end to this shameless lying.

Posters should not be allowed to repeatedly lie - yes lie - about what other posters have written.

This is an out and out lie. I have never stated or even remotely implied that God's righteousness is mine.

This poster - and she is not the only one - knows all too well what my position is on this matter: I have been crystal clear that any good works generated in the life of the believer are entirely to the credit of the Holy Spirit.

I have let this pass before - gd has misrepresented me before and tried to paint me as claiming that believers are saved by their "own" good works. Anyone who can read will know otherwise.

 

[Mysteryman]

[Somebody else's? :crazy

You can't even say His name, can you?
You know you're stealing glory from God, by claiming His righteousness is now yours.

I'm thinking you believe you could have stood outside when the death angel passed over and God would have smiled and winked.

Enough!

Moderators - please put an end to this shameless lying.

Posters should not be allowed to repeatedly lie - yes lie - about what other posters have written.

This is an out and out lie. I have never stated or even remotely implied that God's righteousness is mine.

This poster - and she is not the only one - knows all too well what my position is on this matter: I have been crystal clear that any good works generated in the life of the believer are entirely to the credit of the Holy Spirit.

I have let this pass before - gd has misrepresented me before and tried to paint me as claiming that believers are saved by their "own" good works. Anyone who can read will know otherwise.

What is crystal clear here, is your backward approach towards eternal life. You still believe that you must do good works (with the help of the Holy Spirit or not does not matter) before you "get" eternal life".

So you can now boast by your works , which means that you are saved by your works, and not by grace. You feel you have earned it, instead of being gracious and grateful for the grace of God for the free gift of eternal life.

And I also remind you again (last time), that Romans 4:2 is not talking about the law of Moses ! No argument by you will change this truth !

 

[Drew]

What is crystal clear here, is your backward approach towards eternal life. You still believe that you must do good works (with the help of the Holy Spirit or not does not matter) before you "get" eternal life".

I will let Paul answer this:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

And I also remind you again (last time), that Romans 4:2 is not talking about the law of Moses ! No argument by you will change this truth !

Well if you are not interested in entertaining arguments, then what are you doing here? If you think you can come here, declare what you believe to be "truth" and not have to engage arguments that challenge you, then what can we do?

I made a detailed Biblical argument about Romans 4:2 - I suggest that you actually engage it.

 

[Mysteryman]

What is crystal clear here, is your backward approach towards eternal life. You still believe that you must do good works (with the help of the Holy Spirit or not does not matter) before you "get" eternal life".

I will let Paul answer this:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

And I also remind you again (last time), that Romans 4:2 is not talking about the law of Moses ! No argument by you will change this truth !

Well if you are not interested in entertaining arguments, then what are you doing here? If you think you can come here, declare what you believe to be "truth" and not have to engage arguments that challenge you, then what can we do?

I made a detailed Biblical argument about Romans 4:2 - I suggest that you actually engage it.

I don't engage ignorance , after I have cleary shown that Romans 4:2 is not talking about the law of Moses !

The law came after Abraham, not before , nor during the life of Abraham !

 

[Drew]

I don't engage ignorance , after I have cleary shown that Romans 4:2 is not talking about the law of Moses !

The law came after Abraham, not before , nor during the life of Abraham !

You are simply making a statement, not an argument.

Now, MM, I have provided a detailed argument as to how Paul is really talking about the matter of salvation being limited to Jews.

Please engage the argument - my argument acknowledges and accommodates the very thing that you think works against it. So you need to engage the argument.

 

[glorydaz]

Somebody else's? :crazy

You can't even say His name, can you?
You know you're stealing glory from God, by claiming His righteousness is now yours.

I'm thinking you believe you could have stood outside when the death angel passed over and God would have smiled and winked.

Enough!

Moderators - please put an end to this shameless lying.

Posters should not be allowed to repeatedly lie - yes lie - about what other posters have written.

This is an out and out lie. I have never stated or even remotely implied that God's righteousness is mine.

This poster - and she is not the only one - knows all too well what my position is on this matter: I have been crystal clear that any good works generated in the life of the believer are entirely to the credit of the Holy Spirit.

I have let this pass before - gd has misrepresented me before and tried to paint me as claiming that believers are saved by their "own" good works. Anyone who can read will know otherwise.

You call on the moderators and accuse me of lying....that's interesting, Drew, considering how many times you've slandered me and falsely accused me in the past.

You have said our salvation is ultimately by good works. You credit those to the Holy Spirit, but you are saying you must do them to be saved. You have said that if Abraham had not obeyed (offered up Isaac), he would not have been saved. What I'm doing is holding your feet to the fire and insist you look at what you're saying here. If it's unpleasant...it should be.

You have, indeed, implied God's righteousness is yours because you deny the righteousness of Christ is what enables us to enter before the throne of God. You deny the imputed righteousness of Christ, therefore you're claiming it as your own merit in some fashion. If you don't make a clear case for how you can come before the throne of God, then you need to look a little deeper into your assertions.

 

[glorydaz]

What is crystal clear here, is your backward approach towards eternal life. You still believe that you must do good works (with the help of the Holy Spirit or not does not matter) before you "get" eternal life".

I will let Paul answer this:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

And I also remind you again (last time), that Romans 4:2 is not talking about the law of Moses ! No argument by you will change this truth !

Well if you are not interested in entertaining arguments, then what are you doing here? If you think you can come here, declare what you believe to be "truth" and not have to engage arguments that challenge you, then what can we do?

I made a detailed Biblical argument about Romans 4:2 - I suggest that you actually engage it.

In Romans 2..."He will give" has been added to your translation in place of a comma. Paul is talking to unbelievers in that verse. Paul is speaking of JUDGMENT, where sin trumps good deeds.

In Romans 8...Paul is talking about the natural man who lives according to the flesh as opposed to the spiritual man who lives according to the Spirit. The key word there is LIVE. Once we're born of God we are under the LAW of the Spirit of LIFE. Sin and death have no more dominion over us.

You consistently yank these verses out of context to prove salvation is ultimately by good deeds.
That's not the Gospel...it's a different one.

 

[jasoncran]

keep the posts nice. might i suggest something

i have noticed then when drew and glorydayz and francisdales discuss any topic on salvation one side is pro osas and the other is anti-osas. theres more persons involved and i not picking on anyone.
however, is it wise to just rip each other apart and also beat your head against the wall. neither side is gonna change. if you know that is going to come to an unwinnable debate or stalemate then avoid the topic.

 

[Drew]

You call on the moderators and accuse me of lying....that's interesting, Drew, considering how many times you've slandered me and falsely accused me in the past.

I have done nothing of the sort and, even though I will ask you for evidence, I know you will produce none.

You have said that if Abraham had not obeyed (offered up Isaac), he would not have been saved.

I have never said any such thing.

You have, indeed, implied God's righteousness is yours because you deny the righteousness of Christ is what enables us to enter before the throne of God. You deny the imputed righteousness of Christ, therefore you're claiming it as your own merit in some fashion.

Your conclusion is not valid. To deny the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the believer does not logically lead to the conclusion that we merit the salvation that is generated through the works of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Drew]

In Romans 2..."He will give" has been added to your translation in place of a comma. Paul is talking to unbelievers in that verse. Paul is speaking of JUDGMENT, where sin trumps good deeds.

No gd. I have not added anything. Look at all these translations gd. They are all saying the same thing.

Note how each version clearly has God in the position of implementing a "he will give" or "he will render" action in respect to, yes, eternal life:

NIV: God "will give to each person according to what he has done". To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life

NASB: who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

NLT: will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.

BBE: Who will give to every man his right reward: To those who go on with good works in the hope of glory and honour and salvation from death, he will give eternal life:

NRSV: For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

NKJV: who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

 

[glorydaz]

In Romans 2..."He will give" has been added to your translation in place of a comma. Paul is talking to unbelievers in that verse. Paul is speaking of JUDGMENT, where sin trumps good deeds.

No gd. I have not added anything. Look at all these translations gd. They are all saying the same thing.

Note how each version clearly has God in the position of implementing a "he will give" or "he will render" action in respect to, yes, eternal life:

NIV: God "will give to each person according to what he has done". To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life

NASB: who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

NLT: will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.

BBE: Who will give to every man his right reward: To those who go on with good works in the hope of glory and honour and salvation from death, he will give eternal life:

NRSV: For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

NKJV: who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

Yep, all new translations. And what's supposed to be happening in these end days? An apostate church ...a great falling away. It's no wonder when the Bible has been altered in all kinds of important things such as this and the "faith of Christ". I'm not surprised in the least there is so much error being preached.

 

[Drew]

Yep, all new translations. And what's supposed to be happening in these end days? An apostate church ...a great falling away. It's no wonder when the Bible has been altered in all kinds of important things such as this and the "faith of Christ". I'm not surprised in the least there is so much error being preached.

With all due respect gd, what you are saying here is simply outrageous.

I have posted a number of translations, all generated by a range of Biblical scholars, and all saying substantially the same thing.

You suggest that all these scholars - hundreds if not thousands of well-trained scholars - are all wrong.

And that you are right in respect to the correct rendering of this verse.

Do you really believe saying this helps your position?

 

[glorydaz]

Yep, all new translations. And what's supposed to be happening in these end days? An apostate church ...a great falling away. It's no wonder when the Bible has been altered in all kinds of important things such as this and the "faith of Christ". I'm not surprised in the least there is so much error being preached.

With all due respect gd, what you are saying here is simply outrageous.

I have posted a number of translations, all generated by a range of Biblical scholars, and all saying substantially the same thing.

You suggest that all these scholars - hundreds if not thousands of well-trained scholars - are all wrong.

And that you are right in respect to the correct rendering of this verse.

Do you really believe saying this helps your position?

It isn't my position. I don't have to defend the Word of God. I just have to speak it, and those who have an ear will hear. It's the whole of the Word of God that refutes those few verses you've decided to take out of context in order to promote this idea of ultimate salvation by good deeds. And, yes, these new translations are a sign of the times. I wasn't aware of just how bad they were until you started quoting them. The JW's put one little "a" in front of "God" in John 1:1. It was 40 years ago when the Lord brought that to my attention. Now I see, "He will give" has been added in place of a comma and just look at the havoc it's caused. Changing the verses that speak of the faith "of" Christ is another example. It makes me sick to see the error that's come about by such small "clarifications". Satan must be overcome with joy...it's right up his alley.

 

[Drew]

It isn't my position. I don't have to defend the Word of God. I just have to speak it, and those who have an ear will hear. It's the whole of the Word of God that refutes those few verses you've decided to take out of context in order to promote this idea of ultimate salvation by good deeds.

You have this interesting view on context - that it somehow causes otherwise clear statements in english to mean something other than what they mean. That might be true in some cases, but there is clearly no argument for it in Romans 2. Paul gives us no reason to think he is kidding when he writes:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

You have avoided the clear import of this statement in several ways. One is, frankly, absurd - you claim that this, and other translations, are faulty, and that someone has erroneously added the idea that "God will give eternal" into this verse.

An amazing claim - that hundreds of Bible scholars have all made the same error and that you - glorydaz - are in the position of setting them right.

Well, where is the evidence gd? Where is your case that there has been a translation error in all, yes all, of the translations I listed?

I will get to your erroneous "comma" argument next.

gd - you simply deny the clear rules of english to force texts to mean something that they do not.

 

[Drew]

It is a shame that we need to have to go down this route. Here is the King James:

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Now let's obey the rules of language. The above text involves a clear promise that God will give eternal life to men according to their deeds. That is simply how the statement reads, even though you deny it. The "comma" before the eternal life does not change the fact that the things that God "will render" is eternal life.

If you deny this, you either do not know how to properly parse an english statement, or you are not telling the truth.

Here are a number of statements of the exact same form. They all have the following property: the noun after the last comma is something that is "rendered" in the future according to "deeds" of some sort. There comes a point where we need to stand up for the proper reading of english texts.

Who will render to each child according to his deeds:: To them who behave in class, ice cream cones:

Who will render to every student according to his deeds:: To them who pass all their course, a graduation certificate:

Who will render to every employess according to his deeds:: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for the company's profitaibility, a fat juicy raise:

gd, I absolutely smack-dab guarantee you that you will not be able to produce and secondary school or university english teacher who will agree with the way you read this text - the rendering of Romans 2:6-7 in the KJV.

When you do not follow the laws of english composition, you are free to run amuck through the scriptures. As you do here, and as you do in Romans 8 where it is clear from the very language of the text that Paul is addressing believers when he speaks of walking in the Spirit and thereby getting life.

This is why things are so "easy" for you here - unlike others, you simply rework sentences that do not fit the model you want to see prevail. And there are no "rules" against violating the rules of english in this forum.

Perhaps there should be. What you are doing is effectively a re-working of the Scriptures. And I am not sure that should be countenanced.