Ignoring Romans 2: An Error of Exegisis

[archangel_300]

Because the person is sent to hell for not accepting the free gift offered them by God. There is nothing unrighteous in that. It's more than just and more than fair. If I throw you a ring buoy when you're drowning and you deliberately turn away from it...you'll drown.

I agree, there is nothing unrighteous in that.
But is it also possible that no one wants Christ because they are all spiritually dead to begin with?
That is when God saved us he also gave us a desire to want the ring buoy?

It would also not be unrighteous with God if no one wants the ring buoy in the first place.

 

[glorydaz]

Because the person is sent to hell for not accepting the free gift offered them by God. There is nothing unrighteous in that. It's more than just and more than fair. If I throw you a ring buoy when you're drowning and you deliberately turn away from it...you'll drown.

I agree, there is nothing unrighteous in that.
But is it also possible that no one wants Christ because they are all spiritually dead to begin with?
That is when God saved us he also gave us a desire to want the ring buoy?

It would also not be unrighteous with God if no one wants the ring buoy in the first place.

God draws all men, but He alone knows our heart. Some people don't want the ring buoy because they're afraid they'll have to give up swimming and drinking beer. ;) Perhaps they think a boat will come along or they can just turn over and float for awhile.

When I think back to when I was saved...I wasn't seeking God, but I can see how He was preparing my heart. God engineers our circumstances; with some people they have to go through a world of hurt in order to reach the place where God has them softened up enough to look to Jesus. I was just talking to my daughter about this...she was telling me about her conversation with Jesse (another daughter's husband). Jesse had a heroin adict mother, and he has gotten in a lot of trouble in his life...all alcohol related. He had just wrecked another car...never had a license, and this was his fourth DUI. He got roped into going to church on Easter....seems the pastor was speaking "directly" to him. He's 31 yrs. old and, for the first time in his life, he's seeing that God could actually be telling him something. His face were glowing when he related this to my daughter. A lot of prayer has been going up for that "boy", and I have never seen even a glimmer of hope for him. But I must say....I've seen many such cases during my life. People I'd have just given up on if I didn't know how God works. He is not only merciful, but long suffering...and persistent.

 

[glorydaz]

If one has agreed with my previous post, I'd like to continue.

I hope all of us have agreed upon the following -
faith and works are inseparable.
Faith without works is dead[James 2:17] and works without faith is sin[Romans 14:23].

But which of these determine the other - Is it faith evidenced by works or is it works evidenced by faith? What would the basis for our justification and hence salvation be - faith or works?
At the outset, it may seem redundant to split hairs here since either should mean the same since they're both inseparable and would apply simultaneously. But it is worth taking a closer look to see if there are any differences.


First, we'll have to differentiate between the two kinds of 'works' that are mentioned here -
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

The first verse here talks about Abraham not being justified by works while the second works tell us that he was justified by works. So, obviously, we're referring to two types of 'works' which I'd like to call -
i) Works of self-righteousness.
ii) Works of faith, through love.

i) Works of self-righteousness :
Now, for salvation, we need to stand justified before God and for that, we need to be declared righteous before Him. God gives us the opportunity to earn this righteousness ourselves by keeping His Law completely. This, no man has done except Jesus Christ - and no man can ever do too. It's like God giving us an exam paper(God's Law) of say, a maximum score of 100, and declaring us righteous if we pass the exam. But God being God, sets the score for passing at 100 for this 100-mark paper - absolute perfection. And everybody fails to pass by their own merit, the moment they commit a single sin. So, works of self-righteousness are of no use in imputing righteousness for us. And these works require no faith.

ii) Works of faith, through love :
So, what hope do we have of being declared righteous? Jesus Christ makes the perfect propitiation for our failings on the cross after being the only one to clear the 'exam'. So, only He can be declared righteous - none else. Here's where the new covenant is ushered in for us - the Law of faith.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Note, the 'works' here refers to the works of self-righteousness.

Now, the objective of God's initial exam(Law) was never to enable us to earn our own righteousness. It is to make us know the sinfulness of sin in us - and how that corrupts our ability to love God. It is to teach us to rely solely on God's grace for our righteousness, justification, and salvation. It is to surrender our self-pride to Jesus' love through faith. It is to put our faith in Christ alone for our justification and salvation. We are regenerated in our hearts by the Holy Spirit to be enabled to love God as He should be. And what are we to do when we truly love God - we are to be holy as He who called us is Holy. Here arises our 'good works' - the works that evidence our faith. And these works of faith, without love for God and thereby for man, is a tinkling cymbal. So, we see that it is our faith in God that is counted as righteousness for us while this faith is constantly evidenced by our works through love.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Both your posts are excellent and right on. :amen

 

[archangel_300]

God draws all men, but He alone knows our heart. Some people don't want the ring buoy because they're afraid they'll have to give up swimming and drinking beer. ;) Perhaps they think a boat will come along or they can just turn over and float for awhile.

LOL! OK you win with that beer statement.

When I think back to when I was saved...I wasn't seeking God, but I can see how He was preparing my heart. God engineers our circumstances; with some people they have to go through a world of hurt in order to reach the place where God has them softened up enough to look to Jesus. I was just talking to my daughter about this...she was telling me about her conversation with Jesse (another daughter's husband). Jesse had a heroin adict mother, and he has gotten in a lot of trouble in his life...all alcohol related. He had just wrecked another car...never had a license, and this was his fourth DUI. He got roped into going to church on Easter....seems the pastor was speaking "directly" to him. He's 31 yrs. old and, for the first time in his life, he's seeing that God could actually be telling him something. His face were glowing when he related this to my daughter. A lot of prayer has been going up for that "boy", and I have never seen even a glimmer of hope for him. But I must say....I've seen many such cases during my life. People I'd have just given up on if I didn't know how God works. He is not only merciful, but long suffering...and persistent.

:amen
That's awesome.

There's plenty of people whom I've seen God draw as well. One case I witnessed first hand was clearly the hand of God at work. Back when I was in college I was working a temp job cleaning apartments.
I was partnered with a man who looked very depressed you can just see it on his face that he was struggling in life. He was a substitute teacher. I also remembered him telling me about some of the struggles he was going through. One morning I had the "urge" (looking back it was the spirit guiding me) to talk to him about the gospel of Jesus Christ. I didn't know how I was going to do it but lo and behold that morning when we were talking about my college experience he told me he took a religion class back in his college days. That was clearly an open door and I talked to him about God and Jesus Christ. He did not believe and kept denying Christianity.
I remember after we had our discussion, he went to clean one hallway and I went to clean the other.
After I was finished I went back to the mop stand and there was a wet bible track with the words "Are you ready to meet God?" laid out there. He had found the Bible track as he was mopping the floor down his hallway. What's the probability something like that could occur!!??? Needless to say that WASN'T a coincidence.

We went to rest in the laundry room and I told him "I think God's trying to tell you something"
He looked at me and gave me a little smile and we started discussing Christianity again.
I remember talking to him why I believed the bible was divine in origin. I told him about different symbols like fire always being symbolic of hell etc... I remember him asking me a question about the apostles in the book of Acts about why the apostles had flames of fire their heads if fire represented damnation. To which I responded "yes and they were not burned". That answer struck me as strange because I wouldn't have normally had a quick answer to that type of question as I wasn't as strong in the word back then. Nevertheless he continued to disagree with me on Christianity.

I presume later he must have become a Christian although I'll never know for certain.
But this seemed to be a case where God was clearly trying to get his attention.

But to God be all the glory for Him drawing us.

 

[glorydaz]

Similarly, we are to put our faith in God to rest in His grace. How did the Israelites lose their salvation - by their wicked sin of unbelief(Hebrews 3:12) that led them to commit other sins as idolatry and immorality. Similarly, we can lose our salvation by our unbelief which would be evidenced by our continuous and willful life of sin. Can we continue willfully in unrepentant sin if we have faith in God - absolutely not.


So to conclude, we are justified and saved by faith evidenced by works, through love - all by God's grace, for His glory alone.

I hope I've made some sense in these posts. Kindly bear with the numerous lengthy posts.

Let us try our best to unite our views according to Scripture.

This part in red I might disagree with if I'm reading correctly. Israel was saved as a nation, but they didn't enter into the Promised Land because of unbelief. When we are saved, God circumcises our heart...we are given a heart of flesh rather than a heart of stone...He then ordains that we should walk in good works. Once God has circumcised our heart, we cannot lose our salvation for we are new creatures and have been given eternal life. Those who walk in willful unrepentent sin are those who Jesus NEVER KNEW. It's God's will that Jesus will lose none the Father has given Him. It all rests on whether we truly believe or not. Those who claim to be children of Abraham MUST have a heart circumcised by God or they do not enter into the Promised Land because of WHAT? Unbelief.

You say, "Can we continue willfully in unrepentant sin if we have faith in God - absolutely not." I agree with that. We cannot because God is faithful to chasten His sons...He will never leave nor forsake us, but will pull us out of a pit if we fall into one. We may see some brother that seems to have lost their salvation....I say, we judge prematurely. For God is faithful when we are not.

He is able to keep us from falling, and to present us faultless....

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Never perish, passed from death to life, and eternal life are promises that stand...

"If it were possible" and "lest they fall" do not even come close to the promises that are given in the Word.

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Those who have been born of the Spirit have been predestinated to "be conformed" to the image of His Son. What may appear to men to be someone saved and lost means nothing. It's who are truly saved...those that God has filled with His Spirit that will be conformed. It may not be pleasant for the chastening of the Lord can be a rough road...and men can be fooled by what they see. But God is never fooled. He sees our heart...and He will lose NONE that are His. Those are promises from the Word that no isolated verse can ever undo. We are sealed unto the day of redemption when we are born of God.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[glorydaz]

There's plenty of people whom I've seen God draw as well. One case I witnessed first hand was clearly the hand of God at work. Back when I was in college I was working a temp job cleaning apartments.
I was partnered with a man who looked very depressed you can just see it on his face that he was struggling in life. He was a substitute teacher. I also remembered him telling me about some of the struggles he was going through. One morning I had the "urge" (looking back it was the spirit guiding me) to talk to him about the gospel of Jesus Christ. I didn't know how I was going to do it but lo and behold that morning when we were talking about my college experience he told me he took a religion class back in his college days. That was clearly an open door and I talked to him about God and Jesus Christ. He did not believe and kept denying Christianity.
I remember after we had our discussion, he went to clean one hallway and I went to clean the other.
After I was finished I went back to the mop stand and there was a wet bible track with the words "Are you ready to meet God?" laid out there. He had found the Bible track as he was mopping the floor down his hallway. What's the probability something like that could occur!!??? Needless to say that WASN'T a coincidence.

We went to rest in the laundry room and I told him "I think God's trying to tell you something"
He looked at me and gave me a little smile and we started discussing Christianity again.
I remember talking to him why I believed the bible was divine in origin. I told him about different symbols like fire always being symbolic of hell etc... I remember him asking me a question about the apostles in the book of Acts about why the apostles had flames of fire their heads if fire represented damnation. To which I responded "yes and they were not burned". That answer struck me as strange because I wouldn't have normally had a quick answer to that type of question as I wasn't as strong in the word back then. Nevertheless he continued to disagree with me on Christianity.

I presume later he must have become a Christian although I'll never know for certain.
But this seemed to be a case where God was clearly trying to get his attention.

But to God be all the glory for Him drawing us.

Wonderful testimony of how God works through us.

As members of the body of Christ, we all plant those seeds and water when God sends someone our way. This is not a "job" for the ministers...this is what we do as members of the body. And it's really what obedience is all about. We don't have to follow a set of rules and regulations, because we have Jesus living in us...the guidance of the Holy Spirit every moment of every day. That's the voice we hear and obey. :amen

When we read Scripture...it isn't just talking to the "ministers" or to the "Jews", but to us. I think we would all do well not to limit the great God we serve based on tenses of words and who those words are supposedly spoken to. Every word in the Bible speaks right to us...God is great that way.

 

[Drew]

I'm unable to understand this. Please elaborate further.
Is my present justification by faith inadequate that it needs a new justification by works? What are those works? Can faith and works be separated like that?

I hope to address your post more fully later. But, for the present (no pun intended) please consider this analogy.

Imagine that you are suffering from a disease that makes you exceeding tired. Plus, in 10 days, you need to be able to walk 30 miles in one day in order to win a million dollars in some contest. A doctor comes to you with a pill and says this "Take this pill and you will be restored to physical health so that you can walk 30 miles ten days from now and get your million dollars". Acting on faith alone, you take the pill and then sit there like a lump for the next 10 days. Then, on the appointed day, you get up and walk the 30 miles and get your million.

What has happened?

On the day you took the pill, you acted on faith alone. The medecine in the pill began working in you and, wonderfully enough, you were able to walk the 30 miles. Was the millon dollars given to you because of your faith in the doctor? No!!! It was given based on what you did - walking 30 miles in one day.

And yet, of course, your act of faith alone assured that you would pass the "performance" based assessment that resulted in winning the million dollars.

Do you see what I am getting at?

 

[LaCrum]

Imagine that you are suffering from a disease that makes you exceeding tired. Plus, in 10 days, you need to be able to walk 30 miles in one day in order to win a million dollars in some contest. A doctor comes to you with a pill and says this "Take this pill and you will be restored to physical health so that you can walk 30 miles ten days from now and get your million dollars". Acting on faith alone, you take the pill and then sit there like a lump for the next 10 days. Then, on the appointed day, you get up and walk the 30 miles and get your million.

What has happened?

On the day you took the pill, you acted on faith alone. The medecine in the pill began working in you and, wonderfully enough, you were able to walk the 30 miles. Was the millon dollars given to you because of your faith in the doctor? No!!! It was given based on what you did - walking 30 miles in one day.

And yet, of course, your act of faith alone assured that you would pass the "performance" based assessment that resulted in winning the million dollars.

Do you see what I am getting at?

The problem with this analogy is it doesn’t line up with the story the Bible tells.

If it did, Jesus would be the “doctorâ€, and we would be the “patient†acting by faith of taking this pill believing it would make us better, or, make us justified in the eyes of God.

The “30 mile walk†would be the process of us becoming more Christ-like after our acceptance of him while here on earth. Some people won’t move much farther from where they started, and some will be extremely far along when they die. So, although good works does not get us into Heaven, we most certainly will be rewarded for them in Heaven based upon what we did on Earth.

 

[Drew]

The problem with this analogy is it doesn’t line up with the story the Bible tells.

If it did, Jesus would be the “doctorâ€, and we would be the “patient†acting by faith of taking this pill believing it would make us better, or, make us justified in the eyes of God.

The “30 mile walk†would be the process of us becoming more Christ-like after our acceptance of him while here on earth. Some people won’t move much farther from where they started, and some will be extremely far along when they die. So, although good works does not get us into Heaven, we most certainly will be rewarded for them in Heaven based upon what we did on Earth.

I believe the analogy is fine. Indeed the doctor is Jesus and we are the patient. And the pill is the Spirit. In Romans 8, Paul tells us that it is the action of the Spirit that gives life by producing the good works.

And Paul means what he says: eternal life is granted according to what we have done.

LaCrum, can you please explain why you believe neither of these statements by Paul:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

You clearly reject these assertions – can you tell us why?

 

[glorydaz]

The problem with this analogy is it doesn’t line up with the story the Bible tells.

If it did, Jesus would be the “doctorâ€, and we would be the “patient†acting by faith of taking this pill believing it would make us better, or, make us justified in the eyes of God.

The “30 mile walk†would be the process of us becoming more Christ-like after our acceptance of him while here on earth. Some people won’t move much farther from where they started, and some will be extremely far along when they die. So, although good works does not get us into Heaven, we most certainly will be rewarded for them in Heaven based upon what we did on Earth.

I believe the analogy is fine. Indeed the doctor is Jesus and we are the patient. And the pill is the Spirit. In Romans 8, Paul tells us that it is the action of the Spirit that gives life by producing the good works.

And Paul means what he says: eternal life is granted according to what we have done.

LaCrum, can you please explain why you believe neither of these statements by Paul:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

You clearly reject these assertions – can you tell us why?

This problem just will not leave you, will it, Drew?
It's because your argument is based on a false premise.

LaCrum laid out the perfect picture and you can't see it.

Our work is to believe...that's what saves us. Then ...God has ordained that we should produce the fruit of the Spirit. You speak a lot about works but never seem to mention the fruit of the Spirit. Is it because you can't take credit for the Spirit's fruit the way you can good works? You freely admit it isn't you that does the good works, so why not just call them fruit? Good deeds aren't good if they're done in the striving of the flesh...it's only as we allow the Spirit to work through us that good deeds can be deemed "good". People can persist in doing good works and never be justified by faith...therefore their good works are only good for boasting before man. They do not earn eternal life.

If you read this verse in context, you would see that.

 

[ivdavid]

Please bear with me on the lengthy posts. This is indeed a complex discussion.

Imagine that you are suffering from a disease that makes you exceeding tired. Plus, in 10 days, you need to be able to walk 30 miles in one day in order to win a million dollars in some contest. A doctor comes to you with a pill and says this "Take this pill and you will be restored to physical health so that you can walk 30 miles ten days from now and get your million dollars". Acting on faith alone, you take the pill and then sit there like a lump for the next 10 days. Then, on the appointed day, you get up and walk the 30 miles and get your million.

This is a nice analogy to help me understand your interpretation. But this analogy has some serious flaws - you assume too many absolute parameters to help explain your analogy but when it is applied to Scripture, there is no parallel.

1. You define an absolute '30 miles'. What is the Scriptural parallel?
Even Scripture talks about different performance levels by different believers who are all nonetheless saved.
Mat 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

So, how does your analogy work out now - who is rewarded the million? The one who walks 30 miles or 20 miles or 10 miles? Or can we simply say that it differs person to person?

And if it's going to differ person to person, what is the absolute basis for justification/salvation? Wouldn't it be the faith in the Doctor?

2. And assuming that each one is justified on a variable judgement criteria of works, what does '30-mile' mean to me Scripturally? What is that standard or law? Isn't the only standard or law specified under the new covenant, the law of faith?
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

And if that 30-mile isn't defined absolutely, then how can I walk an 'unknown' number of miles still resting in the assurance of the reward - isn't it by faith then?

3. You define an absolute '10 days'. What is the Scriptural parallel?

I see you make an assumption that God wants each one of us to walk the [as yet undefined and variable]30 miles before rewarding us. What happens if a person passes away before walking the '30 miles' (thief on the cross)? Isn't he justified and saved on the basis of his faith? And if he's justified on the basis of his faith, why would God - the unbiased perfect judge - judge me any differently?

And what exactly does that '10-day' mean to me Scripturally? Shouldn't works evidence your faith everyday - can they be separated? Don't the just[justified] walk each day in faith(Romans 1:17)? If this is the case everyday, then on which 'day' does it change?


4. So you see, you need an absolute defined law to define 'good works'. And if this law isn't defined, then good works cannot be defined and if good works aren't defined, then how can I be justified based on works? The only laws defined in Scripture are the Mosaic Law and the law of faith. And the Scripture says that the Mosaic law was only to show us what sin is. But it is the law of faith that justifies us. What other law of good works is present in Scripture except for this law of faith that anyway induces good works through love?

So I'd like you to define what the 30-mile target is that God wants us to achieve. I'm going to assume for now that you meant the 30-mile target to be that of - loving God through faith and thereby loving man.

And so, I think you've oversimplified the quality of sin. The problem is not so much that we are sick and unable to make the 30 miles[love God through faith] but rather that we don't want to do it at all. We are enemies of God before we got the pill, and are hateful of walking this 30-mile target of love through faith by grace. We'd rather try and walk a 100-mile target by ourselves[Mosaic law] than put our faith in God, rely on His Grace and love Him with all our heart,mind and soul.

So, the Pill is not so much as just giving us a boost of energy to walk but rather giving us the willingness to walk that walk in faith through love.

 

[ivdavid]

5. Continuing from the previous point 4, what then is salvation? What am I being saved from? I'm being saved from my corrupt, sinful nature that doesn't want to love God, that doesn't want to walk the 30-miles. This salvation started happening the day my heart was regenerated - the moment I received the Pill. And now that I am dancing with joy in gratitude, praise and thanksgiving for the truth that set me free - I'd do 30 miles up and down 30 times.

6. Continuing, the reward of that million dollars is no longer a reward now - it is now a free gift of grace. If I had walked the 30-mile of love for God by myself, then I could have deserved the reward. But since I didn't even get started(i was actually running the other way) before I got the Pill, this can no longer be deserved or rewarded - it can simply be given as a free gift by grace. And if it's a free gift that is given by means of the Pill's regenerative work, how then can this free gift of grace be revoked by the ever-loving God?

7. Now, considering the above points, would our 30-mile walk be considered a 'work'? Here, what would an energy pill do - it would make you energetic. what would a sleeping pill do - it would make you sleepy. Similarly, what would the Pill that enables you to love God as He should be loved do - it would obviously make you love God and hence your 30-mile walk is a consequence of your taking the Pill by faith rather than a willful decision for you to start loving God and walking that 30-mile target. And since it's love we're dealing with, it's not measured in concrete slabs. It flows down that 30-mile path negating any necessity to measure distances - so it just becomes an unlimited pathway of love for God which is what our salvation here at the point of regeneration leads us to in eternal life.

So, if a person claims to have taken the pill in faith and doesn't walk this path of love, then he's lying. If a person truthfully has taken this Pill, then he'll stick to this path. And if he begins to falter, the Pill's action ensures that this person is rejuvenated to continue on and on through the person's repentance, confession of sins and faith working through love.

So, seeing that salvation is a really long stream in this life of ours that begins at the point of our receiving the Pill in faith, how then can we be rewarded for our walk down the path as if it was some conscious decision we took willingly. Isn't it more a change of our own nature that makes us do this naturally. And besides, necessity is laid upon us to walk in holiness because of the wonderful sacrifice of Christ. If it were of our own free will that we keep at our walk, then perhaps, we could be rewarded. But we are slaves of righteousness, dead to the guilt and power of sin. Where then is the choice? We don't sit and choose having been given a heart of love for Jesus and having been given a new nature of humility to obey God according to His will.

8. Which brings us to the final point - that of our interpretation of faith.

Acting on faith alone, you take the pill and then sit there like a lump for the next 10 days

What is this faith that you are referring to? Is it faith in the Doctor that the Pill would enable you to walk the 30 miles and enable you to receive the reward or is it faith that you will receive the free gift of a million dollars by grace based on the merit and sacrifice of the Doctor through the regenerative work of the Pill?

If it were just faith in the Pill's effective enabling action, then what is the need for Christ to come and keep the Mosaic Law, live a sinless life, sacrifice Himself on the cross for our sins(our sins of not travelling the 30-mile path of love for God)? If it were only about a Pill that has to be received in faith and the rest is our choosing to walk, then why start with the Old Covenant of works? Why not simply begin with the New Testament? The Doctor could have begun with - "take this Pill in faith and walk down this 30-mile path and I'd reward you at the end of it." He needn't have suffered and sacrificed Himself at all.

And this just makes no logical sense. You say that this Pill is taken in faith. And you say that this Pill is completely effective and sufficient to make us walk this 30-mile path. And we've seen from above, that the Pill enables us to love God, thereby enabling us to walk along this path of love for God in faith. Then logically, everybody who takes the Pill in faith would cover the 30-mile target, right? And if every single person reaches the finish line entirely on account of this Pill, then what is there to justify in that person except his faith in the Doctor? He has worked no work - the Pill has only enabled the consequence of completing the path by one's faith in the Doctor.

And if one has failed to make it to the end, then the entire theory breaks down. He couldn't have stopped loving God [stopped in the path of love for God] when the Pill had initially regenerated him to love God. And the Pill couldn't have stopped working mid-way. So, since our initial faith entails the complete effectiveness of the Pill in regeneration and the entire sufficiency in sanctification, the theory simply breaks down.


To summarize :
1. There is no universal law according to your theory that defines good works.
2. There is no absolute law except the law of faith through love in NT Scripture.
3. There is no demarcation between faith and works in Scripture.
4a. The 30-mile target is assumed to be the path of love for God with all our heart,mind and soul.
4b. Before receiving the Pill, we are enemies of God and hate travelling down this path.
5. The Pill, received in faith, regenerates my heart to love God [walk down the 30-mile path of love]
6. Hence, the million dollars becomes a free gift of grace through faith instead of a reward for works.
7. From point 5, I'm by nature walking down the path of love through faith and this 'work' is only a consequence and evidence of my continuous faith in the Doctor.
8. Our faith is in Christ's righteousness and in receiving the free gift of salvation by His redemptive work on the cross. This is salvation by grace and justification by faith.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

If I've been Scripturally errant anywhere, please correct me.

 

[ivdavid]

Similarly, we can lose our salvation by our unbelief which would be evidenced by our continuous and willful life of sin. Can we continue willfully in unrepentant sin if we have faith in God - absolutely not.

This part in red I might disagree with if I'm reading correctly.

There isn't any problem here - I've seen enough verses pointing to eternal security. So yes, I do believe that nobody can be plucked out of Jesus' hand.

In the above context, I was referring to just about everybody who professes to have faith in Christ - both true believers as well as the reprobates/false teachers etc. . True believers, by their very definition, will not commit the sin of unbelief and hence stand in eternal security of salvation. And I know that the reprobates were never saved in the first place. And since we can't look into the hearts of people to see if they truly believe or not, we are not to judge if anyone's saved or not - that is left to the Judge. But both stake claim in the promise of salvation. So how do we differentiate and assure ourselves - we differentiate by testing and examining ourselves to see if we are in the faith. Our belief or the lack thereof accompanied by the evidencing works of such faith/lack of faith, will determine if our hopes stand valid.

So when I said - "[one can] lose one's salvation" - i meant it only in a redundant sense as can be seen by the statement that followed it. It's also to address the reprobates who claim to have faith in Christ and stand in the promise of salvation though they continue to live unrepentant sinful lives. I think this is what prompts our "faith by works" friends to stress on good works. But they happen to not simply stop at stressing on "good works" to evidence one's faith - they stretch it to be the basis of one's salvation. Well, that's a different story...

Have I clarified this adequately?

 

[glorydaz]

There isn't any problem here - I've seen enough verses pointing to eternal security. So yes, I do believe that nobody can be plucked out of Jesus' hand.

In the above context, I was referring to just about everybody who professes to have faith in Christ - both true believers as well as the reprobates/false teachers etc. . True believers, by their very definition, will not commit the sin of unbelief and hence stand in eternal security of salvation. And I know that the reprobates were never saved in the first place. And since we can't look into the hearts of people to see if they truly believe or not, we are not to judge if anyone's saved or not - that is left to the Judge. But both stake claim in the promise of salvation. So how do we differentiate and assure ourselves - we differentiate by testing and examining ourselves to see if we are in the faith. Our belief or the lack thereof accompanied by the evidencing works of such faith/lack of faith, will determine if our hopes stand valid.

So when I said - "[one can] lose one's salvation" - i meant it only in a redundant sense as can be seen by the statement that followed it. It's also to address the reprobates who claim to have faith in Christ and stand in the promise of salvation though they continue to live unrepentant sinful lives. I think this is what prompts our "faith by works" friends to stress on good works. But they happen to not simply stop at stressing on "good works" to evidence one's faith - they stretch it to be the basis of one's salvation. Well, that's a different story...

Have I clarified this adequately?

You most certainly have...and well done, too, I must say. :amen

 

[Drew]

1. You define an absolute '30 miles'. What is the Scriptural parallel?
Even Scripture talks about different performance levels by different believers who are all nonetheless saved.
Mat 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

So, how does your analogy work out now - who is rewarded the million? The one who walks 30 miles or 20 miles or 10 miles? Or can we simply say that it differs person to person?

I do not see the "flaw" here. Yes, the standard differs from person to person. Why is that a problem? The penitent thief on the cross was ultimately saved. And so would a person who became a believer at 10 and lived to be 100. I do not see the problem. The fact that we are saved by "good works" does not mean that we need to know "how much is enough".

Remember what I have been saying (following Paul) - it is the Holy Spirit that is responsible for producing the good works. So, at the risk of seeming flippant - its the Spirit's job to do enough - we do not need to worry about that. All we need to do is believe and the Spirit will ensure the good works follow.

 

[glorydaz]

1. You define an absolute '30 miles'. What is the Scriptural parallel?
Even Scripture talks about different performance levels by different believers who are all nonetheless saved.
Mat 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

So, how does your analogy work out now - who is rewarded the million? The one who walks 30 miles or 20 miles or 10 miles? Or can we simply say that it differs person to person?

I do not see the "flaw" here. Yes, the standard differs from person to person. Why is that a problem? The penitent thief on the cross was ultimately saved. And so would a person who became a believer at 10 and lived to be 100. I do not see the problem. The fact that we are saved by "good works" does not mean that we need to know "how much is enough".

Remember what I have been saying (following Paul) - it is the Holy Spirit that is responsible for producing the good works. So, at the risk of seeming flippant - its the Spirit's job to do enough - we do not need to worry about that. All we need to do is believe and the Spirit will ensure the good works follow.

BINGO

First you say we're saved by good works...then you corrected yourself with your last statement.

Our good works do not save us, but they follow. Cause and effect.

 

[Danus]

glorydaz

 

[archangel_300]

BINGO

First you say we're saved by good works...then you corrected yourself with your last statement.

Our good works do not save us, but they follow. Cause and effect.

That's right...

 

[Drew]

Let's be clear - there is absolutely no problem with agreeing with Paul as follows:

When, in the present, a person places faith in Jesus, their ultimate future justification, which is by "good works" as Romans 2:6-7 says, is assured.

You guys ignore Romans 2:6-7, pure and simple.

Here is the text that so many of you simply refuse to accept. It is given in many translations. They are all equally clear - the granting of eternal life is based on "good works":

NET: He 1 will reward 2 each one according to his works: 3 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality,

NIV: God "will give to each person according to what he has done". To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life

NASB: who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

NLT: will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.

BBE: Who will give to every man his right reward: To those who go on with good works in the hope of glory and honour and salvation from death, he will give eternal life:

NRSV: For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

NKJV: who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

All of you who deny ulitmate salvation by good works, please tell us how you justify screeing out this statement from Paul.

 

[Drew]

To those who deny Romans 2:6-7, which clearly asserts that eternal life is granted according to good works (do not pretend that it says otherwise!) - please note this from the Terms of Service:

The bible is the inspired, infallible and authoritative Word of God.

Therefore Romans 2:6-7 is inspired and infallible.

So why don't you people believe it?

And, thank God, there is someone here who can do the exegesis properly. This is also from the TOS:

......justification by grace through faith, apart from the works of the law.

Correct, somebody knows how to read Romans - is the works of the Law (of Moses, obviously) that do not justify. This is not, of course, a statement that good works do not justify.