I'm Poped out!

[Dave...]

Who here believes Rome/Pope/Catholicism to be the Anti-Christ system?

I do. They use the same names, but their teaching is the exact opposite of scripture. Another gospel, another Jesus.

Catholicism has existed for 2000 years and Christ established it himself, how can you say that it is Anti-Christ?

Jesus did not establish Catholicism.

 

[zwergel88]

Jesus did not establish Catholicism.

He sure did!

Mathew Ch. 16:13-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, adn upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the netherworld shall no prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven."

also...

John Ch. 21:15-17
Jesus said to simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" Simon Peter answered him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my lambs." He then said to Simon Peter a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Simon Peter answered him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and his said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep."

From these verses it seems pretty clear that Christ did indeed establish the Church on earth. An thus the Holy Father is his representative on earth. It is unfair to critisize him for reaching out to other religions. Religion today is a cause of hatred and war, why should there continue to be animosity between them? The Holy Father was trying to build bridges and create peace and understanding between the world's religions, however through this he never encouraged religious pluralism or anything of the sort and stayed true to the belief that salvation comes through the Church. I don't understand why you critisize this holy man.

Anna

 

[CatholicXian]

JPII's idea of ecumenism= to unite all in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church
not about making compromises or anything silly. don't be ridiculous. the kissing of the Koran (if it truly happened) was a gesture of respect for the small grain of truth contained within-- that there is a higher being-- God, Creator and Lord of all. may the muslims continue to seek Him, and in seeking Him find Christ, and thus the path to the Church of Christ.

 

[bibleberean]

[quote="Soma-Sight":ce772]Who here believes Rome/Pope/Catholicism to be the Anti-Christ system?

Catholicism has existed for 2000 years and Christ established it himself, how can you say that it is Anti-Christ?[/quote:ce772]

Job is right. Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic Church.

Jesus did not establish the unbiblical office of Pope and he did not establish the false gospel of Catholicism.

UNAM SANCTAM
Bull of Pope Boniface VIII promulgated November 18, 1302

URGED BY FAITH, WE ARE OBLIGED TO BELIEVE AND TO MAINTAIN THAT THE CHURCH IS ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, AND ALSO APOSTOLIC. WE BELIEVE IN HER FIRMLY AND WE CONFESS WITH SIMPLICITY THAT OUTSIDE OF HER THERE IS NEITHER SALVATION NOR THE REMISSION OF SINS,...

FURTHERMORE, WE DECLARE, WE PROCLAIM, WE DEFINE THAT IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY FOR SALVATION THAT EVERY HUMAN CREATURE BE SUBJECT TO THE ROMAN PONTIFF.

Contrast this with the true gospel. Notice that being subject to the tyrant of Rome is not part of what saves us.

1Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Does anyone see the Pope's name mentioned in the following verses.

Acts 4:10-12 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the NAME OF JESUS, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 NEITHER IS THERE SALVATION IN ANY OTHER: FOR THERE IS NONE OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN GIVEN AMONG MEN, WHEREBY WE MUST BE SAVED.

It is not necessary for salvation to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. The Pope is an anti-christ!

Vatican II

"Basing itself on scripture and tradition, it teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk. 16:16; Jn. 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence, they could not be saved who knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it." (Vol. 1, pp. 365 and 366)

Is salvation in the church or in Christ?

Jesus did not establish idolatry...

 

[Dave...]

I agree with bibleberean.

Anna, if it's important to you to trace a lineage back to the apostles, the only one would be the Ana Baptists, a name given to them by the Catholic church at a later time. The Catholic church does not trace back to the apostles. These Ana baptists were persecuted by the Catholic church. Some 60 million people were murdered by Catholics because they would not accept the Catholic dogma, they stayed true to scripture.

Concerning Matthew 16:18:

on this rock The word for "Peter," Petros, means a small stone (John 1:42). Jesus used a play on words here with Petra which means a foundation boulder (cf 7:24,25). Since the NT makes it abundantly clear that Christ is both the foundation (Acts 4:11-12 1 Corinthians 3:11) and the head (Ephesians 5:23) of the church, it is a mistake to think that here He is giving either of those roles to Peter. There is a sense in which the apostles played a foundational role in the building of the church (Ephesians 2:20), but the role of primacy is reserved for Christ alone, not assigned to Peter. So Jesus' words here are best interpreted as a simple play on words in that a boulder-like truth came from the mouth of one who was called a small stone. Peter himself explains the imagery in his first epistle: the church is built of "living stones" (1 Peter 2:5) who, like Peter, confess that Jesus is the Chirist, the Son of the living God. And Christ Himself is the "cheif cornerstone" (1 Peter 2:6-7). church. Matthew is the only gospel where this term is found (see also 18:17). Christ calls it "My church", emphasizing that He alone is it's Architect, Builder, Owner, and Lord. The Gr. word for church means "called out ones." While God had since the beginning of redemptive history been gathering the redeemed by Grace, the unique church He promised to build began at Pentecost with the coming of the Holy Spirit, by whome the Lord baptizes believers into His body--which is the church....(JMSB)

 

[Dave...]

JPII's idea of ecumenism= to unite all in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church not about making compromises or anything silly. don't be ridiculous. the kissing of the Koran (if it truly happened) was a gesture of respect for the small grain of truth contained within-- that there is a higher being-- God, Creator and Lord of all. may the muslims continue to seek Him, and in seeking Him find Christ, and thus the path to the Church of Christ.

CatholicXian, love tells the truth, it does not put a stumbling block in front of anyone. When you encourage someone in a false teaching, this is not love. God will be glorified for those who came out of the Muslim faith and began a saving relationship with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, but this will be in spite of the Pope, who encouraged them in a false religion, not because of the lies that he calls love, which is no love at all..

 

[CatholicXian]

JPII's idea of ecumenism= to unite all in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church not about making compromises or anything silly. don't be ridiculous. the kissing of the Koran (if it truly happened) was a gesture of respect for the small grain of truth contained within-- that there is a higher being-- God, Creator and Lord of all. may the muslims continue to seek Him, and in seeking Him find Christ, and thus the path to the Church of Christ.

CatholicXian, love tells the truth, it does not put a stumbling block in front of anyone. When you encourage someone in a false teaching, this is not love. God will be glorified for those who came out of the Muslim faith and began a saving relationship with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, but this will be in spite of the Pope, who encouraged them in a false religion, not because of the lies that he calls love, which is no love at all..

So completely condemning others will get them to change? :roll: How many people have "coverted" from reading posts on this forum? I doubt very many...
If you're going to help someone see the Light (Christ), you have to give them a starting point. Look, the muslims acknowledge that there is a God, so they're a step ahead of the atheist. Now, in our Christian charity we have to show them that there's more to God than what they currently believe. When all you speak is condemnation, it's like talking to a brick wall--they're going to be hardened towards your words, rather than open. If you're damning them to Hell from the get-go, then your consequent words are going to be overlooked.

 

[bibleberean]

Fellowshipping with darkness...

Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

 

[Gary]

JPII's idea of ecumenism= to unite all in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church
not about making compromises or anything silly. don't be ridiculous. the kissing of the Koran (if it truly happened) was a gesture of respect for the small grain of truth contained within-- that there is a higher being-- God, Creator and Lord of all. may the muslims continue to seek Him, and in seeking Him find Christ, and thus the path to the Church of Christ.

Oh what utter nonsense!

The "infallible" pope :bday: declares war on the Muslims...
Pope Urban II at Clermont Cathedral.

I guess the original answer by the "infallible" Roman Catholic popes :bday: to the Muslim threat was the Crusades. They failed miserably. The more recent "campaign" by Roman Catholics towards Muslims is Ecumenism. i.e. if you can't beat them, join them!

("Oh satan, what wonderful words in this book.....")

Interesting .... was the Quran never on the list/index of forbidden books?

I have been involved with evangelizing Muslims for 5 years now. One thought struck me two nights ago. I have yet to come across a Roman Catholic who does evangelism to Muslims. Online, almost all the well known evangelists to Muslims are Reformed or Evangelical in their theology. They are not all from the same denomination, being Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Baptist, Evangelical Free, Assemblies of God, Church of Christ etc but NONE are Roman Catholic.

• M. N. Anderson
  James Arlandson
  Rev. Richard P. Bailey
  Andy Bannister
  Dr. William Campbell
  Roland Clarke
  John Gilchrist
  Samuel Green
  Dr. Ernest Hahn
  Farooq Ibrahim
  Dawud Jabal
  Memsuah Mansoor
  Abu Miriam
  Gerhard Nehls
  Alano Perez
  Dallas Roark
  Brahim Sene
  Sam Shamoun
  Silas
  Wail Taghlibi
  Anthony Wales
  Walid

These men are wonderful, born-again, Spirit-filled, Jesus-loving, Bible-believing Christians. I may be wrong but I believe NONE of them are Roman Catholic.

Then I looked at the well known books on Muslim evangelism. Again, whether the book is in layman's terms or is theological or technical, I have not found a single book by a Roman Catholic.

Strange?

Not really. I then considered converts. Many, many converts to Islam from Christianity are from Roman Catholicism or were lapsed Roman Catholics. I think it is very easy to go from the Roman Catholic rituals to the Islamic rituals!

I also considered the converts to Christianity from Islam. Almost all of those who admit their conversion to Christianity have converted to born-again, Bible-believing Christianity, none to Roman Catholicism.

Strange?

Not really. When someone encounters the living Jesus and is born-again in the Spirit they will never go back to the ritual of something like Roman Catholicism or Islam.

Has this always been like this? Below are a list of very well know Christian authors of a more classical vintage. Guess what? I can't find a Roman Catholic amongst them!

• Al-Kalbi
  Al-Kindi
  James Levi Barton
  Richard Bell
  Leone Caetani
  Jens Christensen
  W. H. T. Gairdner
  Abraham Geiger
  H.A.R. Gibb
  William Goldsack
  Thomas Patrick Hughes
  C. Snouck Hurgronje
  Arthur Jeffery
  Duncan B. Macdonald
  David S. Margoliouth
  Alphonse Mingana
  Sir William Muir
  Theodor Nöldeke
  Carl Gottlieb Pfander
  Joseph Schacht
  Philip Schaff
  [Canon] Edward Sell
  John Subhan
  William St. Clair-Tisdall
  Charles Cutler Torrey
  E. M. Wherry
  Arthur N. Wollaston
  Samuel Zwemer

The rather feeble responses to the errors about Islam and Muslims by the RCC only reinforces the premise and conclusion..... Roman Catholicism has no answer to Islam because Roman Catholicism is not the truth.



Some light reading... (A Roman Catholic priest admits that Islam has appeal)
http://www.yourcatholicvoice.org/index. ... ticle=1187
http://www.yourcatholicvoice.org/index. ... ticle=1189

I can highlight the kinds of errors Father Sidney Griffith, a professor of Semitic and Egyptian languages and literature at the Catholic University of America makes when he compares Islam to Christianity.

(Clue: He never describes the essential difference between Islam and Christianity in terms of RELATIONSHIPS..... a personal relationship with the living God through Jesus Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit. The essential difference between Islam and Christianity is the difference in the "God" we worship. The God of the Bible is a God of love. )

:wink:

 

[Steve]

Well, let's face it Gar: the modern RCC is in to this spineless and sissified ecumenism that is so popular today(O tempora! O mores!)---along with the modern, left-wing Protestant denominations; e.g., ECUSA, PCUSA, UMC, ABC, etc. Dogs are cats in the interests of harmony and goodwill. People who are under , say, 35, know no better. They do not know a traditional, believing Presbyterian Church, or Episcopal Church, with traditional Liturgy and doctrinally sound hymns.

I think it a sign that the Pope elected today did NOT take the name of John Paul III (thankfully), but chose Benedict XVI, as a sign that there will be a return to doctrinal conservatism. I donth think the new Pope will do any koran kissing.

There have been outstanding Catholic writers: Chesterton, Belloc, Knox, rynne, (I'm sitting at my work desk---I can't remember everything! ;-) ), but it was the Western Church, i.e., Roman Catholic, that was the greatest patron of the arts. The greatest music in the world was composed for the Mass by Catholic composers. So, I think it unfair to consider the RCC as some sort of cultural backwash.

 

[Gary]

Valid points Steve.... and I readily admit that there are many famous Roman Catholic thinkers, philosophers, writers, artists, musicians, composers (I assume Mozart was a Catholic!) etc.

Even today, I enjoy the work of Peter Kreeft, a Roman Catholic apologist and Hans Kung (Does God Exist?)... although I think he has now been silenced after questioning the papacy. Peter Kreeft has probably the best book "A Summa of the Summa: The Essential Philosophical Passages of st Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica Edited and Explained for Beginners" <--- that's me!

I enjoy Scott Hahn (A Father Who Keeps His Promises) even when he bashes Protestants! Karl Keating (What Catholics Really Believe) is OK but I think he is also deceptive.

What I was referring to was the lack of Roman Christian apologetics directed to Muslims and Islam...... I really think they have lost the plot there.

Kind regards
Gary

 

[thessalonian]

Here are many audio files by Peter Kreeft.

http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio.htm

 

[Cure of Ars]

What I was referring to was the lack of Roman Christian apologetics directed to Muslims and Islam...... I really think they have lost the plot there.

Catholic have not had much success with converting Muslims. Even St. Francis did not make much of an impact. The problem is that the truth that they do have has immunized them to the Gospel of Christ. Catholic do need to start witnessing to Muslims. The problem that I have found is that they will not interact when you start to question their beliefs.

 

[Steve]

Catholics are not having much success converting CATHOLICS.

 

[stray bullet]

Protestants haven't had much success converting Muslims either.

That's why they go to Christian countries and convert Christians to their denominations, then gloat about how they 'brough the Gospel to people".

The Catholic Church has missions all around the world, bringing lots of people the Gospel in Africa and Asia.

 

[Gary]

The pope converting muslims..... or muslims converting the pope?

Was the quran ever on the forbidden book list? If not, why not? If YES, then why is the pope now kissing the quran?

:-?

 

[stray bullet]

The pope converting muslims..... or muslims converting the pope?

Was the quran ever on the forbidden book list? If not, why not? If YES, then why is the pope now kissing the quran?

:-?

I don't see anything on the book that says it is the Qur'an.

It is obviously some sort of book, no doubt. Were you aware that in Muslim cultures, which the Pope is obviously in, it is insulting not to kiss a gift someone gives you?

 

[Gary]

One of your own roman catholic bishops says it was a quran. He also says it was a delegation to the pope. i.e. the pope was NOT visiting.

Bishop Golta also says that his superiors in the Vatican did not disapprove of this article. He was merely following their example, after all: in one of the Vatican's publications, Pope John Paul II was photographed kissing a Qur'an presented to him by a Saudi Arabian delegation. "Where is the blasphemy in that?" he asks.

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/470/profile.htm

Amazing. The RCC has a list of forbidden books by which it murders and burns people at the stake..... but their own pope kisses the quran!

:roll:

 

[stray bullet]

One of your own roman catholic bishops says it was a quran. He also says it was a delegation to the pope. i.e. the pope was NOT visiting.

Bishop Golta also says that his superiors in the Vatican did not disapprove of this article. He was merely following their example, after all: in one of the Vatican's publications, Pope John Paul II was photographed kissing a Qur'an presented to him by a Saudi Arabian delegation. "Where is the blasphemy in that?" he asks.

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/470/profile.htm

Amazing. The RCC has a list of forbidden books by which it murders and burns people at the stake..... but their own pope kisses the quran!

:roll:

Could I see this supposed list?

The Pope kissed the Qur'an after receiving it from a Saudi delegation, accoding to the Arab custom of receiving gifts.
He is a head of state and acted diplomatic.

Even George Bush received the Qur'an openly when a arab delegation met with him, remember that? He even went so far as to comment that it was a great religion and as I recall, had a lot of wisdom.

In comparison to how other leaders have acted, even said, what he did was incredibly minor- received a gift according to their custom of receiving.

 

[Gary]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07721a.htm

.... was the quran ever on this list?

Henceforth it will be the task of this Sacred Congregation not only to examine carefully the books denounced to it, to prohibit them if necessary, and to grant permission for reading forbidden books, but also to supervise, ex officio, books that are being published, and to pass sentence on such as deserve to be prohibited. Its further task is to remind the bishops of their sacred duty to combat the publication of pernicious writings and give information about them to the Apostolic See, in accordance with the Constitution Officiorum ad munerum of 25 January, 1897 (Acta S. Sedis, XLI, 432).

:-?