I'm Poped out!

[Gary]

The Church does not claim Mohamed was or wasn't saved.

What the RCC claims is that: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims....."

So does that not include Muhammad?

By the way, I am quite sure they have experts on the Moslem religion.

By the way, it is called "Islam".... and no, most of the world's experts in Islam are Evangelical Christians.

They do not say that anyone can be saved by the Quran.

The RCC says that: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." (page 140)

That same "god" that Muslims worship is found in the Quran.

Do you think that Jesus should have lashed in to the Good Samaritan for his false view of God? Should Peter have come in to town with Cornelius and said your damned. How about Paul in Athens. He used on of their shrines to explain God to them. He even quoted some of their pagan literature of all things. This shows he read the pagan poets. He incorporated what some of them said in to scripture! Are you horrified at this?

What did Jesus say about false prophets? Do you not think that Muhammad was a false prophet? What do you think about the fruit that Muhammad produced? Good..... or bad? How should we tell if Muhammad was/is a false prophet? What did Jesus suggest?

 

[thessalonian]

The Church does not claim Mohamed was or wasn't saved.

What the RCC claims is that: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims....."

So does that not include Muhammad?

Stupid question. Of course God's plan was for Muhammad. God's wills that "ALL MEN be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth". I don't know of any that this does not apply to. The grace of Christ on the cross is enough for all or do you think that some how the sins of men is greater than his grace? Now if they did not avail themselves of this grace that is unfortunate. Muhammad certainly had opportunities to do so. God is his judge.

By the way, it is called "Islam".... and no, most of the world's experts in Islam are Evangelical Christians.

So your an expert and you know there are no Catholic experts? Common Gary.

The RCC says that: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." (page 140)

God judges the ignorance and culpability of man. The scriptures say "to the one who does not know, he will recieve but few lashes. ". This indicates that there is a lessened culpability for the ignorant. Now who they are is up to God. I doudt the three wise men knew the ins and outs of the trinity. I doudt the Good Samaritan who believed that the God of Israel was one of many Gods knew about the trinity. Neither did that "righteous and God-fearing man" Cornelius. Gary, I give you scriptural referentces to ponder and you say "I will not hear them". God has implanted his laws on all mens hearts. Ponder Romans 2:14-16 Gary. It seems you have an aversion to verses that say people who don't believe exactly as you MIGHT be saved.

That same "god" that Muslims worship is found in the Quran.

A part of God's law's written on men's hearts is the desire to know the creator. (Romans 2:14-16). Thus the God who they SEEK is the God of the universe. Some find him according to scripture.

Acts 17
26: And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation,
27: that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us,
28: for `In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your poets have said, `For we are indeed his offspring.'
29: Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man.

Paul is speaking to pagans here Gary. He says that some from every nation should seek God and find him. Paul quotes pagan poets here Gary. I am sure there were errors in their writings as well, even about the God of the universe. But he has read and quotes their writings. Why Gary? Because there is truth planted on all mens hearts and a part of that is the desire to find the one true God. The Moslems are not immune to this.

What did Jesus say about false prophets? Do you not think that Muhammad was a false prophet? What do you think about the fruit that Muhammad produced? Good..... or bad? How should we tell if Muhammad was/is a false prophet? What did Jesus suggest?

Why don't you answer my questions Gary. Your juvenile tirades against Catholicism are getting tiring.

Blessings

 

[Gary]

I have answered your questions....

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 583#208583
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 584#208584
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 585#208585
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 588#208588
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 589#208589

By the way, your analogy of the Good Samaritan is about "your neighbour" and not about salvation.

Lastly, read this:

I have yet to come across a Roman Catholic who does evangelism to Muslims. Online, almost all the well known evangelists to Muslims are Reformed or Evangelical in their theology. They are not all from the same denomination, being Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Baptist, Evangelical Free, Assemblies of God, Church of Christ etc but NONE are Roman Catholic.

• M. N. Anderson
  James Arlandson
  Rev. Richard P. Bailey
  Andy Bannister
  Dr. William Campbell
  Roland Clarke
  John Gilchrist
  Samuel Green
  Dr. Ernest Hahn
  Farooq Ibrahim
  Dawud Jabal
  Memsuah Mansoor
  Abu Miriam
  Gerhard Nehls
  Alano Perez
  Dallas Roark
  Brahim Sene
  Sam Shamoun
  Silas
  Wail Taghlibi
  Anthony Wales
  Walid

These men are wonderful, born-again, Spirit-filled, Jesus-loving, Bible-believing Christians. I may be wrong but I believe NONE of them are Roman Catholic.

Then I looked at the well known books on Muslim evangelism. Again, whether the book is in layman's terms or is theological or technical, I have not found a single book by a Roman Catholic.

Strange?

Not really. I then considered converts. Many, many converts to Islam from Christianity are from Roman Catholicism or were lapsed Roman Catholics. I think it is very easy to go from the Roman Catholic rituals to the Islamic rituals!

I also considered the converts to Christianity from Islam. Almost all of those who admit their conversion to Christianity have converted to born-again, Bible-believing Christianity, none to Roman Catholicism.

Strange?

Not really. When someone encounters the living Jesus and is born-again in the Spirit they will never go back to the ritual of something like Roman Catholicism or Islam.

Has this always been like this? Below are a list of very well know Christian authors of a more classical vintage. Guess what? I can't find a Roman Catholic amongst them!

• Al-Kalbi
  Al-Kindi
  James Levi Barton
  Richard Bell
  Leone Caetani
  Jens Christensen
  W. H. T. Gairdner
  Abraham Geiger
  H.A.R. Gibb
  William Goldsack
  Thomas Patrick Hughes
  C. Snouck Hurgronje
  Arthur Jeffery
  Duncan B. Macdonald
  David S. Margoliouth
  Alphonse Mingana
  Sir William Muir
  Theodor Nöldeke
  Carl Gottlieb Pfander
  Joseph Schacht
  Philip Schaff
  [Canon] Edward Sell
  John Subhan
  William St. Clair-Tisdall
  Charles Cutler Torrey
  E. M. Wherry
  Arthur N. Wollaston
  Samuel Zwemer

The rather feeble responses to the errors about Islam and Muslims by the RCC only reinforces the premise and conclusion..... Roman Catholicism has no answer to Islam because Roman Catholicism is not the truth.



Some light reading... (A Roman Catholic priest admits that Islam has appeal)
http://www.yourcatholicvoice.org/index. ... ticle=1187
http://www.yourcatholicvoice.org/index. ... ticle=1189

I can highlight the kinds of errors Father Sidney Griffith, a professor of Semitic and Egyptian languages and literature at the Catholic University of America makes when he compares Islam to Christianity.

(Clue: He never describes the essential difference between Islam and Christianity in terms of RELATIONSHIPS..... a personal relationship with the living God through Jesus Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit. The essential difference between Islam and Christianity is the difference in the "God" we worship. The God of the Bible is a God of love. )

:wink:

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 629#170629

.

 

[Gary]

Questions about false prophets...

What did Jesus say about false prophets?
Do you not think that Muhammad was a false prophet?
What do you think about the fruit that Muhammad produced? Good..... or bad?
How should we tell if Muhammad was/is a false prophet? What did Jesus suggest?

:-?

 

[thessalonian]

Questions about false prophets...

What did Jesus say about false prophets?
Do you not think that Muhammad was a false prophet?
What do you think about the fruit that Muhammad produced? Good..... or bad?
How should we tell if Muhammad was/is a false prophet? What did Jesus suggest?

:-?

YES he was a false prophet and I am quite certain the magesterium views him as such to. Likely in hell to, though you never know, he may have repented of his wickedness. The individual Moslem is a more difficult question and that is what our discussion is about. Now answer my questions.

 

[thessalonian]

Gary, have you ever heard of "Pontifical Council for Inter-Religious Dialogue "? Don't look it up on the web before you answer me.

 

[thessalonian]

"By the way, your analogy of the Good Samaritan is about "your neighbour" and not about salvation."

This is an interesting response from a Protestant. Aren't those who are unsaved totally depraved and incapable of any good. Of course I do agree with this. So how was it that this Good Samaritan was able to do what was good if he was unsaved? Why would Jesus call him the "good" samaritan?"

 

[Gary]

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 840#208840

:-?