Image of God - or image of Adam?

[Elijah7777]

Meanwhile, "get rid of the old world" is the revolutionaries' job, not the church's.

If you want to know what scripture we are talking about just ask. This phrase echoes Revelation 11:15, which states: “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”. It signifies the transition from earthly rule to divine sovereignty, a theme found throughout biblical prophecy, particularly in Daniel 7:14, where dominion is given to the Son of Man.

The shift from worldly to divine rule is a central theme in biblical theology, emphasizing the transition from human governance to God's ultimate sovereignty. This transformation is often described as moving from a worldly perspective, which prioritizes materialism and self-interest, to a divine perspective, which aligns with God's will and eternal purpose.

Biblical Foundations​

• Revelation 11:15 declares: “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.” This verse highlights the prophetic fulfillment of God's reign over all nations.

 

[Elijah7777]

this book was written to the ancient Roman church

All that Paul is doing in Romans is trying to explain what we learn from David in the Psalms. Paul frequently uses the phrase "it is written" in Romans to reference Old Testament scriptures, reinforcing his theological arguments. One notable example is Romans 3:10, where he writes: “As it is written: ‘There is no one righteous, not even one.’” This quotation comes from Psalm 14:1-3 and Psalm 53:1-3, emphasizing humanity's need for God's grace.

Paul uses this phrase throughout Romans to establish the continuity between the Old Testament and the gospel message.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The shift from worldly to divine rule is a central theme in biblical theology, emphasizing the transition from human governance to God's ultimate sovereignty.

What's been happening in reality is the opposite, the world is divesting itself of Christianity , it's becoming more worldly on the trajectory toward a tyranny. It's not progressing toward divine rule, but devolving into a beast system, which is given three and a half years; after that, Jesus will return, then a thousand years of divine rule will be established, that's when Rev. 11:15 is fulfilled. There's no slow "shift" as you described, God has his appointed times and seasons. It's the revolutionaries' job to push the world closer to that Beast system, it's NOT the church's job to push the world closer to a theocracy, i.e. "divine rule". If you believe in God's ultimate sovereignty, trust God with his schedule and his control.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

All that Paul is doing in Romans is trying to explain what we learn from David in the Psalms. Paul frequently uses the phrase "it is written" in Romans to reference Old Testament scriptures, reinforcing his theological arguments. One notable example is Romans 3:10, where he writes: “As it is written: ‘There is no one righteous, not even one.’” This quotation comes from Psalm 14:1-3 and Psalm 53:1-3, emphasizing humanity's need for God's grace.

Paul uses this phrase throughout Romans to establish the continuity between the Old Testament and the gospel message.

So what? What this shows to me is that OT interprets the NT, not any man made theories or traditions.

 

[Elijah7777]

So what?

The problem is that people do not understand what Paul is teaching. But if we go back and read the Psalms first then that makes it easier for us to understand. When Paul says: "It is written" go back and look to we just what is written and what he is commenting on.

 

[Elijah7777]

If you believe in God's ultimate sovereignty, trust God with his schedule and his control.

Yes it is all about trusting God. I just do not understand how God is good and He allows for the potential of so much evil in the world.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The problem is that people do not understand what Paul is teaching. But if we go back and read the Psalms first then that makes it easier for us to understand. When Paul says: "It is written" go back and look to we just what is written and what he is commenting on.

Yeah, sola scriptura, let the bible interpret itself, not human traditions or extrabiblical sources.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes it is all about trusting God. I just do not understand how God is good and He allows for the potential of so much evil in the world.

Evil is the ABSENCE of goodness, like darkness the absence of light, cold the absence of heat, vacuum the absence of air. Billy Graham's daughter was once asked, how God could allow this horrific bloody school shooting, she explained that the school had kicked God out by banning prayer and removing the ten commandments in the campus, therefore God had never "allowed" it, the school administration allowed it.

 

[Elijah7777]

Evil is the ABSENCE of goodness, like darkness the absence of light

That makes sense. Is this why we have to spend so much time in prayer with God? Is this why we have day and night in Genesis? I have been looking for an answer to this question for a long time.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

That makes sense. Is this why we have to spend so much time in prayer with God? Is this why we have day and night in Genesis? I have been looking for an answer to this question for a long time.

Your answer lies within Lk. 11:24-26. Human nature abhors a vacuum as well as mother nature.

"When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it swept and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first.”

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I'm asking you... whether you subconsciously or consciously apply the title "child of God" to yourself

Yes, I am a child of God. And I share this distinction with many brethren.

The real topic of this discussion is human agency and personal responsibility in terms of "comforming to His image", not predestination.

But it does appear that you do not want to address the elephant in the room, which has nothing to do with predestination, but has everything to do with thinking that exercising personal responsibility entitles people to eternal life. You say flat out that obedience is the result of salvation and not the cause, but then you push the idea that pesonal responsibility is the reason we have eternal life.

Of course you don't, no false teacher promotes licentiousness directly, it's always packed with a label of liberty. It is our responsibility to know the difference and adhere to the true meaning of the word, unfortunately you don't seem to get that.

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. (Ga 5:1–6)​

The call to liberty is to avoid the estrangement from Christ that comes from attempting to be justified by law. Standing fast in one's liberty goes hand-in-hand with ceasing all attempts to be justified by law. Standing fast in one's liberty also results in a reaction from the flesh and from the devil that says, "Good, you can now indulge any sinful passions with impunity". You seem to be familiar with this reaction, and it is good that you push back against it. But it is a terrible mistake to refuse to stand fast in your liberty for fear that you may misuse it.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes, I am a child of God. And I share this distinction with many brethren.

So am I, yet I don't brag about it, and I don't attribute it to "predestination."

But it does appear that you do not want to address the elephant in the room, which has nothing to do with predestination, but has everything to do with thinking that exercising personal responsibility entitles people to eternal life. You say flat out that obedience is the result of salvation and not the cause, but then you push the idea that pesonal responsibility is the reason we have eternal life.

To him much is given, much is required, Lk. 12:48. If that's not personal responsibility, I don't know what is. In the same context, the servant who knows his master's will but fails to follow deserves more stripes than non believers. I don't know about you, I don't want any stripes.

The call to liberty is to avoid the estrangement from Christ that comes from attempting to be justified by law. Standing fast in one's liberty goes hand-in-hand with ceasing all attempts to be justified by law. Standing fast in one's liberty also results in a reaction from the flesh and from the devil that says, "Good, you can now indulge any sinful passions with impunity". You seem to be familiar with this reaction, and it is good that you push back against it. But it is a terrible mistake to refuse to stand fast in your liberty for fear that you may misuse it.​

It is a more terrible mistake to be ignorant of what you're liberated FROM and what you're liberated FOR.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

So am I, yet I don't brag about it, and I don't attribute it to "predestination."

To him much is given, much is required, Lk. 12:48. If that's not personal responsibility, I don't know what is. In the same context, the servant who knows his master's will but fails to follow deserves more stripes than non believers. I don't know about you, I don't want any stripes.

It is a more terrible mistake to be ignorant of what you're liberated FROM and what you're liberated FOR.

I agree that it is terrible to not know the separation from sin that new life in Christ brings. But this is not the liberty being discussed in Galatians.

 

[Elijah7777]

Your answer lies within Lk. 11:24-26. Human nature abhors a vacuum as well as mother nature.

The pastor talks about how the devil just wants to get his big toe in the door. Then he can push his way in from there. The nice thing about fasting is that it seems to create a vacuum for God.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I agree that it is terrible to not know the separation from sin that new life in Christ brings. But this is not the liberty being discussed in Galatians.

"Liberty" itself is meaningless, Christ liberated us from SIN for a "life, abundantly" to serve God and others, that's what matters.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

"Liberty" itself is meaningless, Christ liberated us from SIN for a "life, abundantly" to serve God and others, that's what matters.

That's why context matters. I gave you the context above when I quoted Galatians 5:1-6. As do many other verses in Galations, these verses point out the danger of (and the solution for) legalistic Christian living. If you don't perceive any danger in this, it may be because you are not living a legalistic Christian life. I hope that is the case. But denying that it is an issue to avoid creates vunerability on your part. This is nothing to play around with, you can trust me on this.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

That's why context matters. I gave you the context above when I quoted Galatians 5:1-6. As do many other verses in Galations, these verses point out the danger of (and the solution for) legalistic Christian living. If you don't perceive any danger in this, it may be because you are not living a legalistic Christian life. I hope that is the case. But denying that it is an issue to avoid creates vunerability on your part. This is nothing to play around with, you can trust me on this.

I'm telling you, it's better to be legalistic than lawless. Lord Jesus rejects those who practice lawlessness, not legalism.

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matt. 7:21-23)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

That's why context matters. I gave you the context above when I quoted Galatians 5:1-6. As do many other verses in Galations, these verses point out the danger of (and the solution for) legalistic Christian living. If you don't perceive any danger in this, it may be because you are not living a legalistic Christian life. I hope that is the case. But denying that it is an issue to avoid creates vunerability on your part. This is nothing to play around with, you can trust me on this.

If you still don't get it, I'm here weighing the consequences of legalism and licentiousness, i.e. lawlessness. Those who practice legalism God just chastises through his teachings, and those He chastises he actually loves (Heb. 12:6-7), but as for those who practice lawlessness, He doesn't know at all, He gives them up to their own desires. I'm not here promoting legalism, I'm simply taking a "better be safe than sorry” approach.

 

[Elijah7777]

Many will say to Me in that day

The word MANY gets my attention. If He said a few I would not be so concerned. We see this word many in 1 Corinthians 11:30 when we are told: "many are weak and sickly among you". The one that really hurts is Matthew 24 "many will fall away and will betray and hate one another". When our brothers and sisters in the Lord turn against us. I am sure we can all identify with being weak, sick and betrayed by the people we should be able to trust the most. This will keep us humble for sure.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I just do not understand how God is good and He allows for the potential of so much evil in the world.

That's because you failed to detect the false premise, which blames God for all the evil in the world. The right question is, how the government, put in place to deter evil, allows so much evil; and how the church, put in place to convict evil, allows so much evil.

You've probably heard of the three wise monkeys - "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil." In western and modern context, this is commonly understood as ignoring evil, pretending it doesn't exist; but in the original eastern and ancient context, this is an exhortation for you to stay pure, don't grow evil and partake in evil, even though everybody around you is evil.

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities ... rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.