Impossible Questions For Trinitarians

[R7-12]

Question 1:

According to the doctrine of the Trinity, God is one being in three hypostases, or persons, as Father, Son and Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ is co-equal with the Father (and therefore omniscient), if this were biblically true how would it possible for the following to occur, as it so obviously does within the Bible narrative?

For Jesus Christ to receive revelation from God? Which is then received by John from Messiah.

Revelation 1:1 says that it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him to show his servants things which must shortly take place. And he sent and signified it by his angel to His servant John.

 

[thessalonian]

Phil 2
[5] Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
[6] who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
[7] but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
[8] And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.

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Heb.2
[7] Thou didst make him for a little while lower than the angels,
thou hast crowned him with glory and honor,

[9] But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one.

Well, he was in the form of God, i.e. God, yet he made himself lower than the angels. Now angels do not know all so Christ, though divine did not allow himself access to his divine omniscience in his humanity. That's about as close as I can come. He allowed himself the experience of growing in knowledge as well. He was like us in all things except sin we are told. That means he experienced our limitations, though he was God. He humbly allowed this experience. Do you say this is not possible for God? Tell me, how is it that Jacob was defeating all powerful God in Gen 32?

24] And Jacob was left alone; and a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day.
[25] When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and Jacob's thigh was put out of joint as he wrestled with him.
[26] Then he said, "Let me go, for the day is breaking." But Jacob said, "I will not let you go, unless you bless me."
[27] And he said to him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Jacob."
[28] Then he said, "Your name shall no more be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed."
[29] Then Jacob asked him, "Tell me, I pray, your name." But he said, "Why is it that you ask my name?" And there he blessed him.
[30] So Jacob called the name of the place Peni'el, saying, "For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved."

:o

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Phil 2
[5] Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
[6] who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
[7] but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
[8] And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heb.2
[7] Thou didst make him for a little while lower than the angels,
thou hast crowned him with glory and honor,

[9] But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one.

Well, he was in the form of God, i.e. God, yet he made himself lower than the angels. Now angels do not know all so Christ, though divine did not allow himself access to his divine omniscience in his humanity. That's about as close as I can come. He allowed himself the experience of growing in knowledge as well. He was like us in all things except sin we are told. That means he experienced our limitations, though he was God. He humbly allowed this experience

Is he still experiencing this limitation cause this example (Rev.1:1) is after the resurrection/glorification.

Do you say this is not possible for God? Tell me, how is it that Jacob was defeating all powerful God in Gen 32?

24] And Jacob was left alone; and a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day.
[25] When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and Jacob's thigh was put out of joint as he wrestled with him.
[26] Then he said, "Let me go, for the day is breaking." But Jacob said, "I will not let you go, unless you bless me."
[27] And he said to him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Jacob."
[28] Then he said, "Your name shall no more be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed."
[29] Then Jacob asked him, "Tell me, I pray, your name." But he said, "Why is it that you ask my name?" And there he blessed him.
[30] So Jacob called the name of the place Peni'el, saying, "For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved."

The word there is "elohim" which is also used of angels. John, speaking in context of the one true God, however, says "no one has ever seen God". Now we don't have the problem of how Jacob saw God (as in "YHWH") either.

 

[jamonee]

No flaming intended, just a question;

are you a Oneness Pentecostal, Jehovah's Witness, Worldwide Church of God, or a Unitarian?

Question 1:

According to the doctrine of the Trinity, God is one being in three hypostases, or persons, as Father, Son and Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ is co-equal with the Father (and therefore omniscient), if this were biblically true how would it possible for the following to occur, as it so obviously does within the Bible narrative?

For Jesus Christ to receive revelation from God? Which is then received by John from Messiah.

Revelation 1:1 says that it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him to show his servants things which must shortly take place. And he sent and signified it by his angel to His servant John.

 

[R7-12]

Subordinationist Unitarian

R7-12

 

[Klee shay]

Phil 2
[5] Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
[6] who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
[7] but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
[8] And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have just provided scripture against trinity..."though he was in the form of God did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped." Are you sharing in this mind offered through Jesus Christ, that equality with God can NOT be grasped?

Placing Jesus equal to God is grasping the thing which cannot be grasped.

What is perfect is the Son of God (in the form of God) which does not grasp equality with God, but honours God as a Son should.

If you accuse me of interpreting the word as I so choose, then I ask you to refute the order Jesus set in the very scripture you offered. Trinity was not the order Jesus set. This very scripture (if you hold scripture true) states that Jesus did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped.

How then can mankind grasp it and call it Trinity?

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

less of an equality of essence and more of an equality of function. Jesus is related to God as the Word is related to God, or a thought to the mind. They share in essence (hence the word begotten) but they do not share function. The Father is the Creator, the Word is that which all is created through, and the Spirit is that which gives life to the creation. Jesus is subordinate in the sense that the specific function of the Word is not Creator, but that which all is created by or through, however, sharing in essence, he is equal to the Father.

"This is why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath, bu also called God his Father, making himself equal with God" John 5:18

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

What exactly would this verse mean?

Romans 9:5

 

[R7-12]

Hi thessalonian,

I appreciate what appears to be a genuine attempt at answering the question at hand. Unfortunately, your response fails to overcome the difficulties inherent in the doctrine of the Trinity in light of the text given.

Phillipians 2:5-8

[5] Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,

[6] who, though he was in the form of God (shared in God’s divinity as will we all 2 Peter 1:4), did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped (at)

Though Christ was created or generated by God from the same substance as God his Father, he did not assume the authority to grasp (take by force) equality with God. This is precisely what the Adversary attempted to do (Isaiah 14:13-14). This then is an example of the correct attitude towards the Creator which Satan failed to exhibit, thus Christ again is the perfect example. This type of reverence, respect, attitude, and willingness to serve is the kind of mind we are to have among ourselves as verse 5 states.

[7] but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Christ laid down the spirit life he had from God when he became a human being. Again, an example of the kind of attitude we are to have towards our brothers - “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends†(John 15:13). He took the form of a servant, which is what a minister of God is, born of Miriam as a physical mortal human being sharing in all that we are as flesh and blood including weakness, suffering, facing temptation, and learning obedience.

[8] And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.

As a human being, he understood his role and responsibilities and position before his God and Father and BECAME obedient as a flesh and blood human being – which is an existence quite different than that of a spiritbeing which he once had, experiencing the weaknesses of the carnal human mind. Yet he obeyed Almighty God perfectly as an obedient son being a perfect example to us all, even obedient to the point of complete death – as we all ought to be. Thus, He trusted his God and Father to raise him from absolute death as He promised. That is faith.

Christ humbled himself because he went from a being that possessed spirit life which was given to him from God, to a mortal physical man who depended completely on God for his life. Christ could not be God as the Father is God because Messiah humbled himself and God cannot be humbled in His own nature.

For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself (John 5:26).

Heb.2
[7] Thou didst make him for a little while lower than the angels,
thou hast crowned him with glory and honor,

[9] But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one.

Well, he was in the form of God, i.e. God, yet he made himself lower than the angels. Now angels do not know all so Christ, though divine did not allow himself access to his divine omniscience in his humanity. That's about as close as I can come. He allowed himself the experience of growing in knowledge as well. He was like us in all things except sin we are told. That means he experienced our limitations, though he was God. He humbly allowed this experience. Do you say this is not possible for God?

7a You have made him a little lower than the angels;

Scripture says here that Almighty God made the one who became Jesus Christ a little lower than the angels (when he was born of Miriam) implying that previous to his incarnation Christ was equal to the angels – for he was the angel of God according to Scripture (Galatians 4:14, 1 Corinthians 10:4 cf. Exodus 14:19, Exodus 3:2-5 cf. Joshua 5:13-15, see also Genesis 48:15-16).

7b You have crowned him with glory and honor, And set him over the works of Your hands.

This is a quote of Psalm 8:5-6. Christ was crowned with glory and honor and was, “declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead†(Rom. 1:4). The son of God has been given the authority and responsibility over the works of God’s hands. Thus it is he who is working directly with us under the authority of his God and Father and our God and Father. All things have given to Messiah because he was faithful in all that was given to him.

8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.†For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.

There is nothing that God has not put under Messiah’s feet – God Himself excepted.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

Again, Messiah was made a little lower than the angels when he became a man. Prior to that responsibility he was an angel. Now he is the only born elohim of many to come (John 1:18, NASB).

10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, (Heb. 2:7-11).

We, who are sanctified IN Christ, are sanctified BY Christ and together with him all are from the same origin – Almighty God.

Tell me, how is it that Jacob was defeating all powerful God in Gen 32?

24] And Jacob was left alone; and a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day.
[25] When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and Jacob's thigh was put out of joint as he wrestled with him.
[26] Then he said, "Let me go, for the day is breaking." But Jacob said, "I will not let you go, unless you bless me."
[27] And he said to him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Jacob."
[28] Then he said, "Your name shall no more be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed."
[29] Then Jacob asked him, "Tell me, I pray, your name." But he said, "Why is it that you ask my name?" And there he blessed him.
[30] So Jacob called the name of the place Peni'el, saying, "For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved."

"For I have seen elohim face to face, and yet my life is preserved."

There are many texts which say that “God†was seen by men.

and they saw the God (elohim) of Israel (Exodus 24:10a)

Yet the Bible clearly declares that God is invisible, cannot be seen or heard of men and has never been seen or heard.

No one has seen God at any time (John 1:18a).

who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see (1Timothy 6:16b).

And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form (John 5:37).

Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father (John 6:46).

the Bible cannot contradict itself or it is not the inspired word of God. Thus, we must understand what the Hebrew word “elohim†means and the variety of applications in which it is used in Scripture if we are to understand the word of God in this matter.

SHD 6439, peni’el means, “facing God.†From 6437 panah and 410 el. It is a title of word of God who became Messiah. Christ is the face or image of the INVISIBLE God (Col. 1:15) as he perfectly represents the unseen God in all things.

It was the Angel of Yahovah that wrestled with Jacob who was an elohim or theos (Gk. see John 1:1).

Therefore the original question remains unanswered from a Trinitarian perspective and must still be dealt with correctly according to the written word.

R7-12

 

[Georges]

Phil 2
[5] Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
[6] who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
[7] but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
[8] And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.

Ah..Paul Mystery influence? Don't the Mystery Religions teach of a god taking on the form of a man? Doesn't that happen to Mithros, or is it Attis, or both?

Now, I can see the Spirit of Messiah coming down into a human body (Jesus), but the Spirit of Messiah is not God. The Spirit of Messiah can be the Agent of God as interpreted in the Jewish Law of Agency. That is the only way that Jesus (Messiah) can be even interpreted as being equal to Jehovah.

 

[Imagican]

PERFECT KLEE!!!,


Satan DID think equality with God a thing to be grasped. And LOOK what it got him folks. Christ KNEW His PLACE AS the Son. Wow, that WAS a good one, My Brother!!! Amen, my friend!!!

MEC

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Klee,

We cannot grasp PI, but it exists despite our inability to reconcile the equation. 8-) I know a person who worked themself into a panic attack trying to contemplate infinity.

 

[Imagican]

R7-12,

Boy do I feel foolish now. Jumped the gun again. If I had simply continued to read the posts offered I would have 'seen' that you had already offered this understanding. I thought I had had a revelation of sorts, (I guess I still did), but your explanation was certainly placed in a much more intricate description. Way to go, my Brother. It seems SO CRYSTAL clear that I find it difficult to understand 'how' there could be 'ANY' argument.

God Bless,

MEC

 

[R7-12]

Hello Fulton Sheen's Warrior,

The first question of this thread is concerned with Revelation 1:1.

Perhaps we will address other verses like the one you shared at another time.

Please feel free to answer the question in the opeing post if you wish.

R7-12

 

[Sothenes]

Again, Messiah was made a little lower than the angels when he became a man. Prior to that responsibility he was an angel. Now he is the only born elohim of many to come (John 1:18, NASB).

Oh really? He was just an Angel? What kind of angel gets other angels to worship Him?

"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."-Hebrews 1:6

And if Jesus was just equal to the angels then why does it say:

"Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they."-Hebrews 1:4

And isn't the answer to the rhetorical question in Hebrews 1:5 "no" meaning that they were responding to the false claim that Jesus was just an angel?

"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"-Hebrews 1:5 If it was a fact that Jesus was an angel then the writers of Hebrews would have stated that Jesus was an angel and not a Son and Hebrews 1:6 says to 'let all God's angels worship Him' (the Son).

 

[Klee shay]

Hi Klee,

We cannot grasp PI, but it exists despite our inability to reconcile the equation. 8-) I know a person who worked themself into a panic attack trying to contemplate infinity.

You know, I wouldn't doubt that could happen for a second. Some things simply cannot be grasped in the flesh without a physical reaction. :wink:

What do you mean by "PI" though?

 

[Klee shay]

however, sharing in essence, he is equal to the Father.

I can see where you're coming from, but your assessment still contradicts this scripture..."[6] who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped". Either it cannot be grasped or it cannot be grasped; it cannot also be grasped.

"This is why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath, bu also called God his Father, making himself equal with God" John 5:18

Do you believe that John meant Jesus literally made himself equal with God by calling him Father...or was he merely giving an account of the Jewish position which Jesus was judged and condemned by?

If we call God our Father are we also made equal with God?

Calling God his Father did not make Jesus equal with God, for he was still in the flesh of a man and thus could not be made equal with God. He came down from heaven, so how could he also be equal with God on earth? The scripture in John you highlighted demonstrates the Jewish position which condemned Jesus in the end, but it was not a new revelation by Jesus that he was indeed equal to God by calling him Father.

Equality with God simply cannot be grasped otherwise he wouldn't be one God would he?

 

[mutzrein]

Sorry for poking my nose in - couldn't help myself. PI is a number which has an approximate value of 3.1415926535898. The problem is the precise value can never be determined because it goes on into infinity.

Kind of like the Trinity theory i suppose. PI in the sky !! :

 

[R7-12]

Hi Imagican,

Hey no worries! The correct understanding of Phil. 2:5 didn't come from me anyway.

The correct understanding of the only true God is crystal clear as you say, but only to those to whom it has been given.

R7-12

 

[R7-12]

Sothenes wrote,

Again, Messiah was made a little lower than the angels when he became a man. Prior to that responsibility he was an angel. Now he is the only born elohim of many to come (John 1:18, NASB).

Oh really? He was just an Angel? What kind of angel gets other angels to worship Him?

"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."-Hebrews 1:6

And if Jesus was just equal to the angels then why does it say:

"Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they."-Hebrews 1:4

And isn't the answer to the rhetorical question in Hebrews 1:5 "no" meaning that they were responding to the false claim that Jesus was just an angel?

"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"-Hebrews 1:5 If it was a fact that Jesus was an angel then the writers of Hebrews would have stated that Jesus was an angel and not a Son and Hebrews 1:6 says to 'let all God's angels worship Him' (the Son).

Hebrews 4:1-9 (NASB),

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets (through the Angel of YHVH), 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image (copy) of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Why did Messiah become better than the angels? Because he received from God a better inheritance than they. Why? Because he gave up his life to serve God and trusted (had faith) that God would raise him from the dead. This is the covenant of God and includes the same promise made to us through Abraham. If Christ were God then he would NEVER, EVER be compared by his God and Father with the angels who are created beings. But he was compared to them because he is of them.

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You� And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son�

The correct answer is: To the angel who emptied himself of his spirit life, became God’s physical son through human birth and then became His spirit born son through death and resurrection into the family of God. Thus Christ is the first of many as the first of the firstfruits (1 Corinthians 15:20-23, James 1:18).

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.â€Â

A quick study into this immediately reveals the correct understanding of the text. The English word, worship, is translated from the Greek word SGD 4352 proskuneo. It carries the meaning,

- to prostrate oneself in respect of another,

- to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence,

- used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank

- to the Jewish high priests

- to God

- to Christ

- to heavenly beings

To worship, as in serving one’s god, the Greek word is SGD 4576 sebomai. It carries the meaning: to worship, revere

To render religious service or worship or to minister to one’s god, the Greek word for this is SGD 3000 latreuo, to serve, minister, to perform sacred services.

Thus, the word translated “worship†in Hebrews 1:6 proskuneo, carries the meaning to honor, or respest and not worship as one serves the One True God.

So the other angels - the fellow companions of Messiah, did not worship him as the Most High God is worshipped, but rather, they honored him for he was anointed above them by the El Elyon for his obedience in fulfilling his Father's will, "And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him" (Heb. 5:9).

See also Revelation 19:10 and Revelation 22:9.

7 And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.†8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.â€Â

The Messiah, the son of God has become the only born elohim (monogenes theos from John 1:18 NASB) from his resurrection in power. Thus he is called “elohim†as are all who are generated by the Most High God.

Hebrews 1:8-9 is a quote of Psalm 45:6-7.

Notice verse 8 speaks of the throne given to Messiah who is called elohim, and verse 9 explains why it was given to him, because – “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God (elohim, Gk. theos), Your God (Elohim – the Elohim of Elohim), has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions" (or above his fellows).

Jesus Christ hated lawlessness which is breaking the law of God but loved righteousness which is living by all things that are right – which is the law of his Elohim and Father. Jesus Christ obeyed all the commandments of God perfectly and that is why he qualified to become the Passover Lamb of God - our substitutionary sacrifice. Now, because of his obedience to his Father (and therefore he is subordinate to Him), his God and Father anointed him with the oil of gladness more than or above his companions or fellows. Who could the companions or fellows of the pre-incarnate Christ be over whom he anointed by God? All the other angels including the highest ranking host who are called the Morning Stars of God of whom Christ was one – according to Scripture (Revelation 22:16).

The correct answer to the question, “For to which of the angels did He ever say: ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You’? And again: ‘I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to e a Son’†is the Angel of YHVH who became Jesus Christ and thus it is proven through the written word of God.

Sothenes, the original question remains unanswered.

R7-12