Impossible Questions For Trinitarians

[thessalonian]

Phil 2
[5] Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
[6] who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
[7] but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
[8] And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have just provided scripture against trinity..."though he was in the form of God did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped." Are you sharing in this mind offered through Jesus Christ, that equality with God can NOT be grasped?

Placing Jesus equal to God is grasping the thing which cannot be grasped.

What is perfect is the Son of God (in the form of God) which does not grasp equality with God, but honours God as a Son should.

If you accuse me of interpreting the word as I so choose, then I ask you to refute the order Jesus set in the very scripture you offered. Trinity was not the order Jesus set. This very scripture (if you hold scripture true) states that Jesus did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped.

How then can mankind grasp it and call it Trinity?

The passage is an expression of his humility in his humanity, submitting to the Father. He made himself for a little while lower than the angels it says. So what was he before he made himself lower than the angels and what is he afterward? You have a hard time putting two verses together and since you don't think in trinitarian terms you do not understand and think there is a contradiction when there is not.

 

[thessalonian]

Hello Fulton Sheen's Warrior,

The first question of this thread is concerned with Revelation 1:1.

Perhaps we will address other verses like the one you shared at another time.

Please feel free to answer the question in the opeing post if you wish.

R7-12

The passage is just an indication that the revelation we have recieved is through Christ.

Heb 1
1. God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2. in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Jesus Christ is the final means through which revelation of God has come to us through his humanity.

Heb 1
6. And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."

Worship him? Must be God.

 

[Sothenes]

Thus, the word translated “worship†in Hebrews 1:6 proskuneo, carries the meaning to honor, or respest and not worship as one serves the One True God.

So the other angels - the fellow companions of Messiah, did not worship him as the Most High God is worshipped, but rather, they honored him for he was anointed above them by the El Elyon for his obedience in fulfilling his Father's will, "And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him" (Heb. 5:9).

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship (proskuneo) the Father.

John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship (proskuneo) [him] in spirit and in truth.

To say that the Jews or the Samaritans never worshipped the Father is a lie.

 

[R7-12]

thessalonian,

You wrote,

He made himself for a little while lower than the angels it says.

That is quite incorrect. The text says,

[7] You have made him a little lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor, And set him over the works of Your hands.

Almighty God made Christ a little lower than the angels - thus Christ cannot be that God. Almighty God crowned him with glory and honor and set him over His works – thus Christ cannot also be that God.

The meaning of the text is evident and the language is not vague or ambiguous.

R7-12

 

[R7-12]

thessalonian,

You said,

Heb 1
6. And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."

Worship him? Must be God.

Only Almighty God is to be worshipped and the word in question here is proskuneo which means to prostrate oneself in honor, or respect. This is done towards God as it can be towards others also but is not synonymous with worship.

R7-12

 

[R7-12]

Sothenes wrote,

Thus, the word translated “worship†in Hebrews 1:6 proskuneo, carries the meaning to honor, or respest and not worship as one serves the One True God.

So the other angels - the fellow companions of Messiah, did not worship him as the Most High God is worshipped, but rather, they honored him for he was anointed above them by the El Elyon for his obedience in fulfilling his Father's will, "And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him" (Heb. 5:9).

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship (proskuneo) the Father.

John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship (proskuneo) [him] in spirit and in truth.

The same applies here. Besides worship, we honor and respect and prostrate ourselves before Almighty God. We might do the same before a person of high authority but to worship him as we do God would be a breach of the first commandment.

There is an important distinction. Clearly Heb. 1:6 does not carry the meaning of worship and the Greek dictionaries bear this out. To argue the point that the other angels worship Christ is to attribute lawbreaking to them and to Christ for only Almighty God is to be worshipped, as it is written.

This argument comes across as a weak attempt to gain some ground on a position that is Scripturally baseless.

Also, this form of argument does not address the original question of this thread.

The question that has yet to be addressed is,
If Christ and God are the same being, how can Christ receive revelation from God?

R7-12

 

[Sothenes]

Sothenes wrote,

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/ ... -5579.html[/url]

 

[Fat]

Question 1:

According to the doctrine of the Trinity, God is one being in three hypostases, or persons, as Father, Son and Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ is co-equal with the Father (and therefore omniscient), if this were biblically true how would it possible for the following to occur, as it so obviously does within the Bible narrative?

For Jesus Christ to receive revelation from God? Which is then received by John from Messiah.

Revelation 1:1 says that it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him to show his servants things which must shortly take place. And he sent and signified it by his angel to His servant John.

John 14:7 If you had known me, you should have known my Father also: and from now on you know him, and have seen him. 8 Philip said to him, Lord, show us the Father, and it suffises us. 9 Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father? 10 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak to you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works.

Fat

 

[Solo]

Question 1:

According to the doctrine of the Trinity, God is one being in three hypostases, or persons, as Father, Son and Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ is co-equal with the Father (and therefore omniscient), if this were biblically true how would it possible for the following to occur, as it so obviously does within the Bible narrative?

For Jesus Christ to receive revelation from God? Which is then received by John from Messiah.

Revelation 1:1 says that it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him to show his servants things which must shortly take place. And he sent and signified it by his angel to His servant John.

John 14:7 If you had known me, you should have known my Father also: and from now on you know him, and have seen him. 8 Philip said to him, Lord, show us the Father, and it suffises us. 9 Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father? 10 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak to you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works.

Fat

:wink:

Even the babes in Christ Jesus understand this truth. Thanks for your post.

 

[Sothenes]

There is an important distinction. Clearly Heb. 1:6 does not carry the meaning of worship and the Greek dictionaries bear this out. To argue the point that the other angels worship Christ is to attribute lawbreaking to them and to Christ for only Almighty God is to be worshipped, as it is written.

Which Greek dictionaries do not carry the meaning of worship? I have "Word Studies in the Greek New Testament" (Volume II) by Kenneth Wuest:

It is of that future time that God says concerning the Messiah, "And let all the angels of God worship him." The quotation is from the LXX (Deut. 32:43) where Moses speaks of the victory of God over His enemies, and the avenging of His people. The writer probably also had Psalm 96:7 in mind. The return of the Messiah to this earth will be accompanied by host of worshipping angels (II Thess. 1:7, Rev. 19:11-16). The argument of the writer is that if the Son is to be worshipped by angels, surely He must be superior to them, which fact makes the New Testament He inaugurated better than the First Testament which they were instrumental in bringing in.

Translation. And whenever He shall have brought again the first-begotten into the inhabited earth, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship Him.-Kenneth Wuest Translation (one of the NASB translators)

ASV: And when he again bringeth in the firstborn into the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

BBE: And again, when he is sending his only Son into the world, he says, Let all the angels of God give him worship.

DBY: and again, when he brings in the firstborn into the habitable world, he says, And let all God's angels worship him.

KJV: And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

WEY: But speaking of the time when He once more brings His Firstborn into the world, He says, "And let all God's angels worship Him."

WBS: And again, when he bringeth in the first-begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

WEB: Again, when he brings in the firstborn into the world he says, "Let all the angels of God worship him."

All of these Bibles translate it as "worship".

 

[R7-12]

Fat,

Simply tossing a Scripture or two at a question is not effective for a number of reasons - in this case the most relevant is that it does not anwser the specific question at hand because rational Biblical theism is subordinationist Unitarian, and you provide no accompanying explanation.

The text you cited has nothing to do with the doctrine of the Trinity and hence it does not and cannot explain how Messiah can receive revelation from God from the Trinitarian perspective which insists that the two persons are really one being.

In fact the text you gave supports subordinationist Unitarianism.

the words that I speak to you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works.

How can the words Christ speaks not be of himself if he and the Father are one being?

Just as we are to have the Spirit of God dwelling in us who would then do all the works in us and whose words we would speak and not our own.

Perhaps you would like to share some explanation for your position so that it can be discerned whether the truth is in them.

Remember, the Bible provides the test by which God's servants can discern the truth - To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them (Isaiah 8:20. NKJV).

R7-12

 

[Sothenes]

The question that has yet to be addressed is,
If Christ and God are the same being, how can Christ receive revelation from God?

R7-12

Answer. One of the persons of the Trinity chooses not to know until it is time to be revealed.

 

[R7-12]

Sothenes,

You wrote,

The question that has yet to be addressed is,
If Christ and God are the same being, how can Christ receive revelation from God?

R7-12

Answer. One of the persons of the Trinity chooses not to know until it is time to be revealed.

Deliberate ignorance? How strange! And just why would certain revelations have to be ignored by one of the three persons until a certain time?

You said "three persons" and suggested that each of them can subdivide their respective knoweldge. So how does one being deny himself certain knoweldge until it is decided by the same being to reveal it to itself?

This may be your conclusion and it may be your belief, but Scriptural support is required for such an assertion.

Please provide the Biblical texts that say one of the persons of the Trinity can choose not to know something (which, although, its own being already knows), until it is time to be revealed.

R7-12

 

[Solo]

Sothenes,

You wrote,

[quote="R7-12":6c544]The question that has yet to be addressed is,
If Christ and God are the same being, how can Christ receive revelation from God?

R7-12

Answer. One of the persons of the Trinity chooses not to know until it is time to be revealed.

Deliberate ignorance? How strange! And just why would certain revelations have to be ignored by one of the three persons until a certain time?

You said "three persons" and suggested that each of them can subdivide their respective knoweldge. So how does one being deny himself certain knoweldge until it is decided by the same being to reveal it to itself?

This may be your conclusion and it may be your belief, but Scriptural support is required for such an assertion.

Please provide the Biblical texts that say one of the persons of the Trinity can choose not to know something (which, although, its own being already knows), until it is time to be revealed.

R7-12[/quote:6c544]
Until you become a born of the Spirit believer, you will not understand the Godhead. While you have breath there remains hope. Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (Matthew 6:33) Your righteousness will gain you nothing.

.

 

[R7-12]

Solo wrote,

Until you become a born of the Spirit believer, you will not understand the Godhead. While you have breath there remains hope. Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (Matthew 6:33) Your righteousness will gain you nothing.

Why is it everytime the heat is turned up on the Trinitarians because of their inability to answer Scripture correctly, they take it out on the messenger who speaks as it is written?

Solo, you have made enormous assumptions about me personally that biblically you have no right to. The fact of the matter is, God's self-revelation is dependant upon one's obedience to Him (Proverbs 16:3, NKJV).

What position of judgment could you possibly hold concerning my righteousness?

Your conduct and condescending words leave you in a position to balance the scales according to justice and mercy as part of the responsibilities of one who claims to be a servant of Jesus Christ - Matthew 25:45-46 & Matthew 5:23-24.

This thread is not about my ability to understand the Godhead. It is about the ability of Trinitarians to answer questions that otherwise expose the teaching of the Trinity as utterly false and Biblically baseless.

And it certainly is not about your assessment of my salvation by the One True God - Eloah, through Yashua Messiah, His son whom He sent.

R7-12

 

[Sothenes]

You said "three persons" and suggested that each of them can subdivide their respective knoweldge. So how does one being deny himself certain knoweldge until it is decided by the same being to reveal it to itself?

This may be your conclusion and it may be your belief, but Scriptural support is required for such an assertion.

Please provide the Biblical texts that say one of the persons of the Trinity can choose not to know something (which, although, its own being already knows), until it is time to be revealed.

R7-12

And your scriptural support that I'm wrong is???

John 14:6 Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me.

Would the words "to" and "through" make any sense if the Father and Jesus were the same person? 1.

John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

The Father and the Son are in the same being because that is what John 14:11 means when it says,"in me" and "in the Father". 2.

To answer your question, you wanted me to provide a text to prove that a person of the Trinity can choose not to know something:

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

God has his reasons: "And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."-Acts 1:7 Since the Father has put it in his own power, the other persons of the Trinity don't reveal it.

John 16:30 Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.

John 21:17 The third time he said to him, Simon son of John, do you love me? Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, Do you love me? He said, Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you. Jesus said, Feed my sheep.

1. p.150, The Complete Book of Bible Answers (Answering the Tough Questions) by Dr. Ron Rhodes

2. Ibid.

 

[Solo]

Solo wrote,

Until you become a born of the Spirit believer, you will not understand the Godhead. While you have breath there remains hope. Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (Matthew 6:33) Your righteousness will gain you nothing.

Why is it everytime the heat is turned up on the Trinitarians because of their inability to answer Scripture correctly, they take it out on the messenger who speaks as it is written?

God's Word is that which cuts asunder and displays the inner thoughts of those that twist it and turn it to provide solace to their own wicked ways. Satan did the same thing with the Word of God in tempting Jesus Christ in the wilderness. He takes a portion of the Word and twists it to his own conclusions to deceive and destroy whom he chooses.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

Solo, you have made enormous assumptions about me personally that biblically you have no right to. The fact of the matter is, God's self-revelation is dependant upon one's obedience to Him (Proverbs 16:3, NKJV).

God's revelation to man is made by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The indwelling Spirit teaches believers all things and by His guidance, never contradicts the whole counsil of the Word of God. I have made enormous assumptions about you based on your writings and the "quick, and powerful" Word of God which "is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart".

What position of judgment could you possibly hold concerning my righteousness?

The Word of God is clear that the righteousness of all mankind is as filthy rags. Those that are in the flesh are corrupt and mortal, while those that are in Christ, rest in the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. 7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities. Isaiah 64:6-7

Study Romans, chapter 4 where Paul writes through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, explaining the righteousness of the Faith in Jesus Christ.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. Romans 4:23-25

Your conduct and condescending words leave you in a position to balance the scales according to justice and mercy as part of the responsibilities of one who claims to be a servant of Jesus Christ - Matthew 25:45-46 & Matthew 5:23-24.

The Jews thought that Jesus was conducting himself in an unrighteous and condescending manner when he called the truth, truth, and lies, lies. I have offered to you the truth of God's Word whereby you will not recognize the Father until you accept and know the Son. Jesus said that there will be those that claim to have done great works in His name, but Jesus' response to them will be, "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I NEVER knew you". Be careful and examine yourself according to the whole counsil of the Word of God, and be not deceived by the Father of lies.

This thread is not about my ability to understand the Godhead. It is about the ability of Trinitarians to answer questions that otherwise expose the teaching of the Trinity as utterly false and Biblically baseless.

Your lack of understanding in the area of the Godhead reveals your lack of knowing God through Jesus Christ by revelation of the Spirit. When that area is cleared up, you will not have a discrepancy with the Word of God.

And it certainly is not about your assessment of my salvation by the One True God - Eloah, through Yashua Messiah, His son whom He sent.

R7-12

Your salvation depends on your faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Any other doctrine apart from that is a lie. Do you know who Jehovah is? If so, who is Jehovah?


.

 

[Klee shay]

Phil 2
[5] Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
[6] who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
[7] but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
[8] And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have just provided scripture against trinity..."though he was in the form of God did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped." Are you sharing in this mind offered through Jesus Christ, that equality with God can NOT be grasped?

Placing Jesus equal to God is grasping the thing which cannot be grasped.

What is perfect is the Son of God (in the form of God) which does not grasp equality with God, but honours God as a Son should.

If you accuse me of interpreting the word as I so choose, then I ask you to refute the order Jesus set in the very scripture you offered. Trinity was not the order Jesus set. This very scripture (if you hold scripture true) states that Jesus did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped.

How then can mankind grasp it and call it Trinity?

The passage is an expression of his humility in his humanity, submitting to the Father. He made himself for a little while lower than the angels it says. So what was he before he made himself lower than the angels and what is he afterward? You have a hard time putting two verses together and since you don't think in trinitarian terms you do not understand and think there is a contradiction when there is not.

When you say "submitting to the Father", are you saying submitting to himself?

 

[mutzrein]

R7-12 - Thankyou for the way you answered Solo. I agree with you.

Solo - we have been down this path in times past. May I suggest again now as i did then that if you wish to debate this doctrinal theory called the trinity that we not start judging another person's standing before the Lord. If there is any righteousness, it is in Christ and this comes by faith which is a gift of God.

 

[Solo]

R7-12 - Thankyou for the way you answered Solo. I agree with you.

Solo - we have been down this path in times past. May I suggest again now as i did then that if you wish to debate this doctrinal theory called the trinity that we not start judging another person's standing before the Lord. If there is any righteousness, it is in Christ and this comes by faith which is a gift of God.

I am not judging a persons standing before the Lord. I am giving the Word of God's description of one's standing before the Lord when one does not KNOW the Father through Jesus Christ.

One can claim to know the Father and say that Jesus is the Christ, but Jesus shows that unless one truly knows Jesus, they can not know the Father. By showing that one doesn't know the Godhead of the Father, Word, and Spirit, one shows their tragic withdrawal from knowing God.