Impossible Questions For Trinitarians

[Klee shay]

John 14:6 Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me.

Would the words "to" and "through" make any sense if the Father and Jesus were the same person? 1.

John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

The Father and the Son are in the same being because that is what John 14:11 means when it says,"in me" and "in the Father". 2.

Isn't that changing the nature of the word "in" though?

Instead of saying I am in the Father and the Father is in me - suggesting indeed 2 individuals to inhabit one another; if Jesus really meant he was the Father and the Father was Jesus, wouldn't he have removed the word "in"?

Making it sound more definite like; "Believe me when I say that I am the Father and the Father is me..."

The doctrine of Trinity has to explain the scriputre with a "translation", when the dialogue actually says what it means dont' you think?

 

[Sothenes]

Solo wrote,

Until you become a born of the Spirit believer, you will not understand the Godhead. While you have breath there remains hope. Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (Matthew 6:33) Your righteousness will gain you nothing.

Why is it everytime the heat is turned up on the Trinitarians because of their inability to answer Scripture correctly, they take it out on the messenger who speaks as it is written?

Solo, you have made enormous assumptions about me personally that biblically you have no right to. The fact of the matter is, God's self-revelation is dependant upon one's obedience to Him (Proverbs 16:3, NKJV).

What position of judgment could you possibly hold concerning my righteousness?

It takes many hours of practice and study to answer questions. My wife had to write papers on a bunch of different issues at a Christian College. I spend hours every week writing articles and when I went to a Bible Institute, they had us spending hours making observations about different verses.

"Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established."-Proverbs 16:3

Wesley's Notes 16:3 Commit - Refer all thy actions and concerns to God, as the end of them, and depend upon God's providence for success. Established - Thy designs shall be brought to an happy issue.

Matthew Henry Comment: 16:1 The renewing grace of God alone prepares the heart for every good work. This teaches us that we are not sufficient of ourselves to think or speak any thing wise and good. 2. Ignorance, pride, and self-flattery render us partial judges respecting our own conduct. 3. Roll the burden of thy care upon God, and leave it with him, by faith and dependence on him.

Please explain how this verse speaks about God's self revelation directed towards man.

What position of judgment could anyone possibly hold concerning your righteousness? "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."-John 20:23 We have the Biblical right to say your sins are remitted or retained.

You don't have to be defensive with me because I believe I can answer a lot of questions if I have time.

 

[Sothenes]

John 14:6 Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me.

Would the words "to" and "through" make any sense if the Father and Jesus were the same person? 1.

John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

The Father and the Son are in the same being because that is what John 14:11 means when it says,"in me" and "in the Father". 2.

Isn't that changing the nature of the word "in" though?

Instead of saying I am in the Father and the Father is in me - suggesting indeed 2 individuals to inhabit one another; if Jesus really meant he was the Father and the Father was Jesus, wouldn't he have removed the word "in"?

Making it sound more definite like; "Believe me when I say that I am the Father and the Father is me..."

The doctrine of Trinity has to explain the scriputre with a "translation", when the dialogue actually says what it means dont' you think?

I think "in" is anthropomorphic for the persons of the Trinity which are sharing the same essence or substance which is God.

 

[Klee shay]

John 14:6 Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me.

Would the words "to" and "through" make any sense if the Father and Jesus were the same person? 1.

John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

The Father and the Son are in the same being because that is what John 14:11 means when it says,"in me" and "in the Father". 2.

Isn't that changing the nature of the word "in" though?

Instead of saying I am in the Father and the Father is in me - suggesting indeed 2 individuals to inhabit one another; if Jesus really meant he was the Father and the Father was Jesus, wouldn't he have removed the word "in"?

Making it sound more definite like; "Believe me when I say that I am the Father and the Father is me..."

The doctrine of Trinity has to explain the scriputre with a "translation", when the dialogue actually says what it means dont' you think?

I think "in" is anthropomorphic for the persons of the Trinity which are sharing the same essence or substance which is God.

Don't you realise Soth that needs some "translation" to come to that conclusion. Is Jesus really that ambiguous he wouldn't say what he meant at the time? To use the word "in" requires something eternal also. Jesus spoke the truth...it is the doctrine of trinity which says Jesus was referring to something else other than the relationship between father and son.

I noticed you also used the plural person(s) "of" the Trinity when you replied above however. Rather than saying person "in" the Trinity. Either there is One God of which there is a separate begotton Son and the Comforter, or there is One God with no persons. Wouldn't you think?

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Until you become a born of the Spirit believer, you will not understand the Godhead. While you have breath there remains hope. Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (Matthew 6:33) Your righteousness will gain you nothing.

Perhaps it is your righteousness that will gain you nothing if you can't be honest enough to admit you can't answer his question - instead of impugning that he is not a true seeker because he doesn't agree with you?

 

[R7-12]

Some people seem to want to distract from the issue at hand. So a bit of re-focusing appears to be in order.

If you wish to address this thread, please keep it relevant to the question on the table - and try to provide biblical support for your assertions.

Oh, and BTW, if you are interested in assassinating a brother because he doesn't share your beliefs, please reserve your fiery darts for the next Inquisition.

R7-12


Question 1:

According to the doctrine of the Trinity, God is one being in three hypostases, or persons, as Father, Son and Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ is co-equal with the Father (and therefore omniscient), if this were biblically true how would it possible for the following to occur, as it so obviously does within the Bible narrative?

For Jesus Christ to receive revelation from God? Which is then received by John from Messiah.

Revelation 1:1 says that it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him to show his servants things which must shortly take place. And he sent and signified it by his angel to His servant John.

 

[R7-12]

I just wanted to thank all of you who have demonstrated care and concern in defense of others on this thread.

Your conduct is an example to those who apparently have no trouble loving family and friends but find it extremely difficult to serve according to the law of the Only True Elohim, those who they consider enemies.

You shall be known by your fruits and if you are a respecter of persons you are convicted by the law as a transgressor.

Sin is the transgression of the law and the wages of sin is death.

This is properly understood by those who have given their works to God, that is, they do what God commands because they believe Him and in return their minds are set in order, their thinking is properly sorted out, in other words, their thoughts are established by God according to truth and correct understanding - something most commentaries reveal themselves to be severely lacking in (Proverbs 16:3, NKJV).

When proper thinking is established in us by God because we do what He says - He reveals himself to us in His word through guidance by His Holy Spirit.

Those who do not live by every word of God live in darkness because they reject the Law/Word of God in practice and thus have no light in them. Isaiah 8:20, NKJV.

R7-12

 

[Fat]

Fat,

Simply tossing a Scripture or two at a question is not effective for a number of reasons - in this case the most relevant is that it does not anwser the specific question at hand because rational Biblical theism is subordinationist Unitarian, and you provide no accompanying explanation.

The text you cited has nothing to do with the doctrine of the Trinity and hence it does not and cannot explain how Messiah can receive revelation from God from the Trinitarian perspective which insists that the two persons are really one being.

In fact the text you gave supports subordinationist Unitarianism.

the words that I speak to you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works.

How can the words Christ speaks not be of himself if he and the Father are one being?

Just as we are to have the Spirit of God dwelling in us who would then do all the works in us and whose words we would speak and not our own.

Perhaps you would like to share some explanation for your position so that it can be discerned whether the truth is in them.

Remember, the Bible provides the test by which God's servants can discern the truth - To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them (Isaiah 8:20. NKJV).

R7-12

John is very clear, I didn't think it need explanation and still don't. If you have seen Christ you have seen the Father they are one in each other.

Now let me ask you a question(s):

“I, even I, am the Lord [YHWH}; And there is no savior besides Me," (Isaiah 43:11)

Do you believe that Christ was the Savior? Or did Isaiah misquote God? Or are they One?

Let me throw one more thing in here for you to think about:

1 Cor 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

 

[Solo]

Until you become a born of the Spirit believer, you will not understand the Godhead. While you have breath there remains hope. Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (Matthew 6:33) Your righteousness will gain you nothing.

Perhaps it is your righteousness that will gain you nothing if you can't be honest enough to admit you can't answer his question - instead of impugning that he is not a true seeker because he doesn't agree with you?

When you, I, or another claim our righteousness to gain access into the Kingdom of God we are immediately failures and in grave error. It is only by being born of the Spirit when one gains access into the Kingdom of God, and only then can one understand the things of God. Knowing God is dependent upon the righteousness of one, and that one is Jesus Christ. Any works of self-grandized righteousness will only gain one a reward here on earth; after that all will be wood, hay, and stubble.

The righteousness of Jesus Christ is all that will gain anyone access into heaven, no matter how many commandments you can keep.

 

[R7-12]

John is very clear, I didn't think it need explanation and still don't. If you have seen Christ you have seen the Father they are one in each other.

Now let me ask you a question(s):

“I, even I, am the Lord [YHWH}; And there is no savior besides Me," (Isaiah 43:11)

Do you believe that Christ was the Savior? Or did Isaiah misquote God? Or are they One?

The fact is John is indeed very clear,

Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 “as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (John 17:1-3).

Christ lifted up his eyes to heaven and spoke to his Father – thus he was generated by his Father and therefore is subordinate and distinct from Him.

God gave Christ authority over all flesh – thus Christ did not have this authority inherently he would if he were God and co-equal with him.

Those whom Christ has authority from God to grant everlasting life are given to him from God – thus he is subordinate to God who is greater than he.

Everlasting life is predicated upon knowing the only true God (one) ……… AND Jesus Christ whom God sent! Thus Jesus Christ can’t be the only true God because the Scripture says he was sent by that God of which there is only one!

How much more plain can it be?

The fact is it is not about logic, clarity, or truth, but an inability to sacrifice oneself to serve the only living God and His son Jesus Christ.

Shall we examine John further?

No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God (elohim), who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him (John 1:18, NASB).

Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 “You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 “God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.†25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming†(who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.†26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.†(John 4:21-26, NKJV).

It really needs no explanation. Christ taught us to worship the Father and not him. True worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth for the FATHER is seeking such to worship HIM. God is spirit (Clearly Christ wasn’t when he spoke these words revealing that God is not divided), and those who worship HIM must do so in spirit and truth. Christ then showed he is not God but rather, the Messiah who was prophesied of.

Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work (John 4:34).

The will of Jesus Christ is to do the will of Him who sent him and to finish His work. Thus Christ cannot be the one who sent him and be the one sent at the same time! Christ should that his will was to do the will of HIM who sent him – thus he is subordinate to the ONE who sent him and therefore cannot be co-equal as the doctrine of the Trinity demands.

Shall we continue? John has much to say on this important issue.

Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel (John 5:19-20).

The son can do NOTHING of himself – who needs further proof? The son cannot be co-equal if he can do nothing of himself, in fact, to be co-equal demands that he could do EVERYTHING of himself – which he said himself cannot be true!

Christ does only what his Father shows him – kinda like an ideal father-son relationship wouldn’t you say?

“For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will" (John 5:21).

“For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27“and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man" (John 5:26-27).

Christ did not have life inherent! It was granted to him by his Father! – Thus, Christ cannot be co-eternal with his Father and he said so himself! His Father also gave him authority to execute judgment – thus he did not have that authority in himself and therefore cannot be co-equal.

There are many more clear examples of rational Biblical theism given by John. Let’s consider another,

Will anyone deny the words of Messiah? Jesus Christ said,

“I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me" (John 5:30).

Again, Christ can do nothing of himself. Does this require complex explanation and interpretation to understand what it clearly states?

Jesus Christ does not seek his own will – thus he has one will and does not seek it. Rather, he seeks the will of the Father who sent Him. Thus the Father is God and Christ is not, as it is written.

Shall we have one more? This one is irrefutable proof that God and Christ are two separate beings and that Christ is subordinate to God.

Messiah said,

“If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true.†If he alone bears witness of himself – it is not true. (John 5:31)

“There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true.†There is ANOTHER! A second one. One distinct from him who bears witness of him making it true. (John 5:32).

“But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finishâ€â€the very works that I doâ€â€bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 “And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form (John 5:37).

The works from the Father which were given to Christ reveals the Father and thus bears witness of Christ, that the FATHER has sent him. And the Father Himself has TESTIFIED of me! Whom you have neither seen nor heard at any time. God, the Father of Jesus Christ is the second witness of Christ!

Why was a second witness so important? Because it is part of the law of God and the Jews wanted to kill Christ based on their false accusation that he broke the law by claiming to be the son of God! (Deuteronomy 17:6, 19:15, Matthew 18:16, John 19:7, 2 Corinthians 13:1, Hebrews 10:28).

The law requires TWO witnesses, thus if Christ was the same being as God, which Trinitarianism demands, then God could not be a second witness and thus Christ’s testimony is false!

This is but one small example of the damage that this false doctrine does to the word of God and especially to those who are deceived by it.

Fat, your assertion concerning the Trinity has fallen down and it will not get up.

R7-12

 

[R7-12]

Now let me ask you a question(s):

“I, even I, am the Lord [YHWH}; And there is no savior besides Me," (Isaiah 43:11)

Almighty God has provided us with a sacrifice that is sufficient for salvation for all who repent and trust that Almighty God can and will raise them from the dead. It is God who saves us and it was He who provided the sacrifice. Did Jesus Christ play a role in this? Of course! He was sent by His God and Father to become our Passover Lamb and he learned obedience as a son even unto death. He had to do his part but it is God who provided the means for salvation by giving His son as a sacrifice for us. There is no other than can offer what He has, thus Almighty God is our Savior.

R7-12

 

[Solo]

John is very clear, I didn't think it need explanation and still don't. If you have seen Christ you have seen the Father they are one in each other.

Now let me ask you a question(s):

“I, even I, am the Lord [YHWH}; And there is no savior besides Me," (Isaiah 43:11)

Do you believe that Christ was the Savior? Or did Isaiah misquote God? Or are they One?

The fact is John is indeed very clear,

Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 “as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (John 17:1-3).

Christ lifted up his eyes to heaven and spoke to his Father – thus he was generated by his Father and therefore is subordinate and distinct from Him.

God gave Christ authority over all flesh – thus Christ did not have this authority inherently he would if he were God and co-equal with him.

Those whom Christ has authority from God to grant everlasting life are given to him from God – thus he is subordinate to God who is greater than he.

Everlasting life is predicated upon knowing the only true God (one) ……… AND Jesus Christ whom God sent! Thus Jesus Christ can’t be the only true God because the Scripture says he was sent by that God of which there is only one!

How much more plain can it be?

The fact is it is not about logic, clarity, or truth, but an inability to sacrifice oneself to serve the only living God and His son Jesus Christ.

Shall we examine John further?

No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God (elohim), who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him (John 1:18, NASB).

Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 “You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 “God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.†25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming†(who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.†26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.†(John 4:21-26, NKJV).

It really needs no explanation. Christ taught us to worship the Father and not him. True worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth for the FATHER is seeking such to worship HIM. God is spirit (Clearly Christ wasn’t when he spoke these words revealing that God is not divided), and those who worship HIM must do so in spirit and truth. Christ then showed he is not God but rather, the Messiah who was prophesied of.

Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work (John 4:34).

The will of Jesus Christ is to do the will of Him who sent him and to finish His work. Thus Christ cannot be the one who sent him and be the one sent at the same time! Christ should that his will was to do the will of HIM who sent him – thus he is subordinate to the ONE who sent him and therefore cannot be co-equal as the doctrine of the Trinity demands.

Shall we continue? John has much to say on this important issue.

Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel (John 5:19-20).

The son can do NOTHING of himself – who needs further proof? The son cannot be co-equal if he can do nothing of himself, in fact, to be co-equal demands that he could do EVERYTHING of himself – which he said himself cannot be true!

Christ does only what his Father shows him – kinda like an ideal father-son relationship wouldn’t you say?

“For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will" (John 5:21).

“For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27“and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man" (John 5:26-27).

Christ did not have life inherent! It was granted to him by his Father! – Thus, Christ cannot be co-eternal with his Father and he said so himself! His Father also gave him authority to execute judgment – thus he did not have that authority in himself and therefore cannot be co-equal.

There are many more clear examples of rational Biblical theism given by John. Let’s consider another,

Will anyone deny the words of Messiah? Jesus Christ said,

“I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me" (John 5:30).

Again, Christ can do nothing of himself. Does this require complex explanation and interpretation to understand what it clearly states?

Jesus Christ does not seek his own will – thus he has one will and does not seek it. Rather, he seeks the will of the Father who sent Him. Thus the Father is God and Christ is not, as it is written.

Shall we have one more? This one is irrefutable proof that God and Christ are two separate beings and that Christ is subordinate to God.

Messiah said,

“If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true.†If he alone bears witness of himself – it is not true. (John 5:31)

“There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true.†There is ANOTHER! A second one. One distinct from him who bears witness of him making it true. (John 5:32).

“But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finishâ€â€the very works that I doâ€â€bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 “And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form (John 5:37).

The works from the Father which were given to Christ reveals the Father and thus bears witness of Christ, that the FATHER has sent him. And the Father Himself has TESTIFIED of me! Whom you have neither seen nor heard at any time. God, the Father of Jesus Christ is the second witness of Christ!

Why was a second witness so important? Because it is part of the law of God and the Jews wanted to kill Christ based on their false accusation that he broke the law by claiming to be the son of God! (Deuteronomy 17:6, 19:15, Matthew 18:16, John 19:7, 2 Corinthians 13:1, Hebrews 10:28).

The law requires TWO witnesses, thus if Christ was the same being as God, which Trinitarianism demands, then God could not be a second witness and thus Christ’s testimony is false!

This is but one small example of the damage that this false doctrine does to the word of God and especially to those who are deceived by it.

Fat, your assertion concerning the Trinity has fallen down and it will not get up.

R7-12

R7-12,
Your lack of understanding the deity and humanity of Jesus has you over a barrel. At what point in your life were you born of God? It is possible that you are just going through the religious motions dictated by friends and family and through an intellectual study minus the guidance of God the Spirit indwelling within you. Perhaps if you go directly to God and ask him for forgivness of your sins and confess that you believe that Jesus paid the entire penalty for your sins, and that he died and resurrected bodily for the hope of your redemption; all things will come together for you as you study the Word of God with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Klee shay]

The scriptures are pretty clear aren't they. 8-) Jesus declared it righteously the first time...he didn't need a secret identity (through the trinity) to hold the power God had given him.

 

[Fat]

Now let me ask you a question(s):

“I, even I, am the Lord [YHWH}; And there is no savior besides Me," (Isaiah 43:11)

Almighty God has provided us with a sacrifice that is sufficient for salvation for all who repent and trust that Almighty God can and will raise them from the dead. It is God who saves us and it was He who provided the sacrifice. Did Jesus Christ play a role in this? Of course! He was sent by His God and Father to become our Passover Lamb and he learned obedience as a son even unto death. He had to do his part but it is God who provided the means for salvation by giving His son as a sacrifice for us. There is no other than can offer what He has, thus Almighty God is our Savior.

R7-12

Yes John is clear alright

John

1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

20:27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

And again I repeat John 14:10 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak to you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works. Can you say that you are in the Father?

And so was Isaiah clear

9:6
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

And so was John the Baptist in Matthew.

3:3
For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the Lord; Make His paths straight.' "


Tell me who posted your last post, you or your hand. Did you not tell your hand to operate your keyboard? But your hand is you...but if you cut it off only the hand will die not you. Your mind communicates with your hand and your hand communicates with your mind. they are separate but both are you.

As I posted before man can not know (understand) the ways of the Spirit and I don't claim to be other than a man. I'm sad to see that you do not believe that Christ is your Savior.

Almighty God has provided us with a sacrifice that is sufficient for salvation for all who repent and trust that Almighty God can and will raise them from the dead. It is God who saves us and it was He who provided the sacrifice. Did Jesus Christ play a role in this? Of course! He was sent by His God and Father to become our Passover Lamb and he learned obedience as a son even unto death. He had to do his part but it is God who provided the means for salvation by giving His son as a sacrifice for us. There is no other than can offer what He has, thus Almighty God is our Savior.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Christ is the Savior the Messiah the Alpha the Omega My Lord and my God. I believeth in him .

Fat

 

[TanNinety]

Now let me ask you a question(s):

“I, even I, am the Lord [YHWH}; And there is no savior besides Me," (Isaiah 43:11)

Do you believe that Christ was the Savior? Or did Isaiah misquote God? Or are they One?

Nehemiah 9:27 Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest [them] from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.

Woah! Who are these other saviours that Nehemiah is talking about? Is Nehemiah contradicting Isaiah? Or is it that God sends saviours but ultimately He alone is the saviour of all?

 

[Fat]

Now let me ask you a question(s):

“I, even I, am the Lord [YHWH}; And there is no savior besides Me," (Isaiah 43:11)

Do you believe that Christ was the Savior? Or did Isaiah misquote God? Or are they One?

Nehemiah 9:27 Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest [them] from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.

Woah! Who are these other saviours that Nehemiah is talking about? Is Nehemiah contradicting Isaiah? Or is it that God sends saviours but ultimately He alone is the saviour of all?

WOW! does the Bible contradict the Bible... noooo

Definition: yaw-shah' 
1. to save, be saved, be delivered
1. (Niphal)
1. to be liberated, be saved, be delivered
2. to be saved (in battle), be victorious
2. (Hiphil)
1. to save, deliver
2. to save from moral troubles
3. to give victory to

Hosea
13:4
"But I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.

Acts
4:5 The next day the rulers, elders and teachers of the law met in Jerusalem. 6 Annas the high priest was there, and so were Caiaphas, John, Alexander and the other men of the high priest's family. 7 They had Peter and John brought before them and began to question them: "By what power or what name did you do this?" 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 He is "'the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone.' 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." 13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.




"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."


Yes!!!!! For Me!!! And for those who have ears to hear.

 

[TanNinety]

Fat, Since you fail to see the point of my post let me rephrase myself.

God sends saviours. Proof, text from Nehemiah that I have provided.

You quote since God is saviour and Yashuah is saviour that Yashuah is God.

By your reasoning every single saviour that God sent in the old testament that Nehemiah is talking about should be God. So by your reasoning God is not just a tripart being but a multi-part being where the multi depends on how many ever saviours He has sent in the past.

But to use logic is my mistake when talking to a trinitarian. I concede this discussion ..not my position.

 

[Fat]

Fat, Since you fail to see the point of my post let me rephrase myself.

God sends saviours. Proof, text from Nehemiah that I have provided.

You quote since God is saviour and Yashuah is saviour that Yashuah is God.

By your reasoning every single saviour that God sent in the old testament that Nehemiah is talking about should be God. So by your reasoning God is not just a tripart being but a multi-part being where the multi depends on how many ever saviours He has sent in the past.

But to use logic is my mistake when talking to a trinitarian. I concede this discussion ..not my position.

I feel your pain sir. It is hard to argue with Gods Word.

Hosea
13:4
"But I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Acts 4:10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 He is "'the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone.' 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."


For those who have ears.
De 29:4 -
But to this day the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.

Ps 115:6 -
they have ears, but cannot hear, noses, but they cannot smell

Ps 135:17 -
they have ears, but cannot hear, nor is there breath in their mouths

Isa 6:10 -
Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

Isa 42:20 -
You have seen many things, but have paid no attention; your ears are open, but you hear nothing."


Jer 5:21 -
Hear this, you foolish and senseless people, who have eyes but do not see, who have ears but do not hear:

Jer 6:10 -
To whom can I speak and give warning? Who will listen to me? Their ears are closed so they cannot hear. The word of the Lord is offensive to them; they find no pleasure in it.

Eze 12:2 -
"Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people

Mt 13:15 -
For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

Mr 8:18 -
Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don't you remember?

Ac 28:27 -
For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

Ro 11:8 -
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."

May God bless you.
Fat

Yes!!!! For me. For the elect!! His grace is free for those who have ears.

 

[Imagican]

Boy, you guys are 'something else'.

R-7, Klee, you have BOTH offered the 'truth'. It seems apparent that once one accepts 'trinity', then their whole theology becomes tainted.

I would like to emphasize what R offered. God IS the only ONE capable of offering Salvation. He choose to offer it in a particular way. Mine is NOT to question the 'why' of it, but to simply accept it AS OFFERED. He chose to offer it through His Son. And for this cause he also empowered His Son with certain gifts in order to teach us of His will. Christ states as much over and over again. Some of the scriptures have been offered here, and amazingly, been rejected by those that insist on 'trinity'.

Once again, God WILL offer strong delusion so that those that choose to follow a lie will believe it. Jesus IS NOT GOD. He states PLAINLY that our God IS His God also. Now, where do you even get a 'hint' here that He IS God. He plainly states that He IS the Son of God. The Son is NOT the Father, IS NOT the Holy Spirit, IS NOT GOD, but indeed, exactly who He stated He was/IS. He SITS at the Right HAND OF GOD. Come on folks, it's that simple. Christ was NOT MADE BY MEN. He was created BY THE FATHER, get it? FATHER?

'Trinitarians' insist on some 'mystical' dictionary to discern the words that they use to defend this 'trinity'. WHY? Christ said that the GREATEST in heaven will be those that are 'like' children. Children understand SIMPLE things folks. 'Trinity' is so complicated that those that accept it CAN'T explain it. I have heard it referred to as anything from ice cubes, to computers and have yet to even have these analogies make any kind of 'sense' according to scripture.

Accept the 'simplicity' that IS Christ and 'trinity' simply evaporates. Like most tradition carried over into the Protestant faith from the CC, 'trinity' doesn't hold ANY water. It is man's vain attempt to 'create their OWN Christ' as if the ONE created by the Father wasn't 'good enough'. Trust in God, and trust in Christ, even trust in the apostles, but 'man'? NO WAY. Man is flesh and man is carnal. Without the understanding offered us through God's Word and through the Spirit, there IS NO understanding that matters.

 

[Fat]

Boy, you guys are 'something else'.

R-7, Klee, you have BOTH offered the 'truth'. It seems apparent that once one accepts 'trinity', then their whole theology becomes tainted.

Luke 1:34 "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?" 35 The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Christ the son of the Holy Ghost? Or the son of God?


Luke 4:12 And Jesus answered him, "It is said: You must not tempt the Lord your God." 13 After the Devil had finished every temptation, he departed from Him for a time.

Now who was the Devil trying to temp?

Hummm

LOL it's been fun and I really do pray for you guys. The only reason I post on threads like this is for the sake of others that may stop by and read your version of Christ gospel.

The doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at by looking at the whole of scripture, not in a single verse.

An analogy would be time.  Time is past, present, and future.  But, there are not three times, only one.

Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

Fat