In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?

[GodsGrace]

What is free will? You seem intelligent. I rarely get an answer. Define "free will" with an emphasis in your definition on FREE. How is one's will, which I assume you agree that your will was created by God and continues to exist because of God ( ... how is one's will free from the way God made it; free from what God wishes you to know/do?

Anecdote: My will desires that I be twice as good looking ... obviously, I have a will but it is not Free from God ... Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring..Romans 11:36, etc. etc.

Augustine: Free will is the ability to choose what you desire most at the time
or
Libertarian free will means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God.
or
whatever

You don't understand Libertarian free will or you don't choose too.
Please explain it properly or not at all.
I'm not going to state what it is and you know why...


Not hitting my head against that wall.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What is free will? You seem intelligent. I rarely get an answer. Define "free will" with an emphasis in your definition on FREE. How is one's will, which I assume you agree that your will was created by God and continues to exist because of God ( ... how is one's will free from the way God made it; free from what God wishes you to know/do?

Free will is the ability to make choices from one's own thinking or feeling within the limits set. Some of the those limits are set by God and some are set by man and some are set by nature. We cannot just to be somewhere else in the next 5 minutes by deciding or exercising our free will to be elsewhere. Many times many people have wished they could instantly be elsewhere (safe) and it did not happen. So within those limits, our ability to direct our course is open to out decisions. The wise man is aware of these limits and choices. The foolish man does not consider any limits, internal or external.

Anecdote: My will desires that I be twice as good looking ... obviously, I have a will but it is not Free from God ... Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring..Romans 11:36, etc. etc.

Changing your appearance has limits. That does not mean you are not free. Combing your hair, for example, is a free will choice you can make that will improve your appearance. Washing it now and again will do the same. Brushing your teeth will help the appearance of anyone. The list goes on and on of free will choices everyone else knows you can make and holds you responsible for making them or neglecting to do so. This demonstrates the freedom we have to choose. Because the choices are limited does not mean none of them are free. And in fact, the whole world around you KNOWS you have free will and will hold you responsible for those choices. They will praise you if you do well and they will disapprove of your choices should you violate the expectations ( right or wrong.) Do you see that you are free and you act as though others are free too and blame them if their choices does you harm?

Augustine: Free will is the ability to choose what you desire most at the time
or
Libertarian free will means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God.
or
whatever

OK, but Augustine had a fairly lurid past where he pursued his desire and so that colors his view. That is rather a hedonistic view. A christian ought to prefer to say that free will is the ability to choose what God desires at last some of the time.

The Libertarian definition is unrealistic. There is no being free from human nature. The hungry man cannot decide not to be hungry and never eat again because food is expensive.

 

[Fastfredy0]

This is really beyond our pay scale and I see no good out of speculating on this one.

Beyond mine too ... interesting to contemplate ..... you brought it up, lol .... trying to blow my mind up?

Angels are material beings. They are not immaterial.

Well, I agree that they can put on a material body on occasion(Genesis 18:1-19). But they are immaterial. As you said, the bible is the source of truth ... what does it say?

Premise 1: Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?
Premise 2: God is spirit, God is invisible
Conclusion: angels and God are spirit and invisible and invisibility is a characteristic of immateriality.

Admittedly, not conclusive.

For someone who is not, you are doing really really well. Lack of formal education does not limit mental prowess. I am impressed, Fast Freddy.

Fooled you then ... or maybe you want to borrow money from me ....

Seems like we are agreed save on angels being material or not. No more metaphysical crap... giggle

 

[Fastfredy0]

Some of the those limits are set by God and some are set by man and some are set by nature.

Well, I agree that God and nature set limits where nature is subject to God's will.
How does man control his will? How power other than God determine what I will choice. Like God created all things and at one time there was nothing but God, so how does some other power other than God determine man's will.

Aside:

Dualism - In theology, the concept of dualism assumes that there are two separate entities—good and evil—which are equally powerful. In “Christian” dualism, God represents the good entity and Satan represents the evil entity. The division of something conceptually into two opposed or contrasted aspects, or the state of being so divided. Gotquestions.org

Revelation 4:11 says God created all things and Hebrews 1:3, Colossians 1:17 says God sustains all things. John 1, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:3 and Revelation 4:11 all make it clear that God is the creator of everything and therefore it is blasphemous to suggest that something in creation is upheld by a power other than God's.

Question: Can God create something He doesn't control given Col. 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. There is no power other than God holding anything together.

Lunch

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Well, I agree that God and nature set limits where nature is subject to God's will.
How does man control his will?

Ask yourself how you control yourself. How do you make yourself go to work when you'd rather play? Look inside yourself. Do you think it is too much for you to make yourself care for your body so that it remains healthy? Is it beyond you to make yourself go to bed when you are tired? Is it too much to make yourself wait to eat even though you are hungry? This tells you your answer, if you are interested in real answers that match real life.

How power other than God determine what I will choice.

He does not determine what you will choose. I can come up with many many decisions that God is not controlling. Your body itself determines choices you must make if your well-being is to continue as it currently is. God is not involved. You were born with that capacity and we all expect you to exercise it. I warn you, I like philosophy that matches real life.

Like God created all things and at one time there was nothing but God, so how does some other power other than God determine man's will.

He gave us power, limited, to make real choices. That is how.

Aside:

Dualism - In theology, the concept of dualism assumes that there are two separate entities—good and evil—which are equally powerful. In “Christian” dualism, God represents the good entity and Satan represents the evil entity. The division of something conceptually into two opposed or contrasted aspects, or the state of being so divided. Gotquestions.org

That is not correct. Light is stronger than the dark which runs from light. Good is stronger than evil which is an absence of good and actually requires that which is good to be of any strength at all. Being clever is good. Being stupid is not. A stupid bad person cannot be as bad as a clever bad person. Youtube is full of stupid thieves and such. They are hilarious.

Revelation 4:11 says God created all things and Hebrews 1:3, Colossians 1:17 says God sustains all things. John 1, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:3 and Revelation 4:11 all make it clear that God is the creator of everything and therefore it is blasphemous to suggest that something in creation is upheld by a power other than God's.

This is true. Although a great deal he created to run on its own. Reproduction runs on its own. God is not involved in every human conception. He does not need to be.

Question: Can God create something He doesn't control given Col. 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. There is no power other than God holding anything together.

What if he does not WANT to control everything? Can God create something He does WANT to or need to control? Isn't that a better question?

Lunch

Dinner

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Beyond mine too ... interesting to contemplate ..... you brought it up, lol .... trying to blow my mind up?

Maybe expand.

Well, I agree that they can put on a material body on occasion(Genesis 18:1-19). But they are immaterial. As you said, the bible is the source of truth ... what does it say?

No, they are material. That they can pass through doors does not make them immaterial. Jesus had a resurrected body, passed through doors and ate fish. Do you see that bodies different than our are still material?

Premise 1: Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?
Premise 2: God is spirit, God is invisible
Conclusion: angels and God are spirit and invisible and invisibility is a characteristic of immateriality.

There are sounds that human ears cannot hear. Are they therefore not sounds with the usual wave composition? There are spiritual matters or being our eyes cannot see. Does it follow then that these are immaterial because our eyes cannot see them? There are material creatures eagle can see from a distance that we cannot see. Do those small creatures have no material bodies because our eyes cannot see them? Using the human senses as the measure for the material or immaterial is a faulty ruler. Human ears do not hear all sounds possible. Human eyes do not see all light waves possible. Our senses are not the ultimate measure of reality.

 

[hawkman]

Lunch

Warmed over venison chili for me .

Our will was created by God who initially made us without sin and then imputed a sin nature (defect) to everyone after Adam "blew it".

Did God tell Adam all his descendants would have a sin nature (defect) ? Genesis Chapter 3 would have been a good time to do this .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Warmed over venison chili for me .

Spaghetti here.

Did God tell Adam all his descendants would have a sin nature (defect) ? Genesis Chapter 3 would have been a good time to do this .

God had not heard of that theology at that time. It was invented millennia later.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Ask yourself how you control yourself. How do you make yourself go to work when you'd rather play? Look inside yourself. Do you think it is too much for you to make yourself care for your body so that it remains healthy? Is it beyond you to make yourself go to bed when you are tired? Is it too much to make yourself wait to eat even though you are hungry? This tells you your answer, if you are interested in real answers that match real life.

He does not determine what you will choose. I can come up with many many decisions that God is not controlling. Your body itself determines choices you must make if your well-being is to continue as it currently is. God is not involved. You were born with that capacity and we all expect you to exercise it. I warn you, I like philosophy that matches real life.

He gave us power, limited, to make real choices. That is how.

That is not correct. Light is stronger than the dark which runs from light. Good is stronger than evil which is an absence of good and actually requires that which is good to be of any strength at all. Being clever is good. Being stupid is not. A stupid bad person cannot be as bad as a clever bad person. Youtube is full of stupid thieves and such. They are hilarious.

This is true. Although a great deal he created to run on its own. Reproduction runs on its own. God is not involved in every human conception. He does not need to be.

What if he does not WANT to control everything? Can God create something He does WANT to or need to control? Isn't that a better question?


Dinner

Sorry, I missed a “not.” Can God create something He does not want to control?

 

[for_his_glory]

This is untrue IMO.
In point of fact, evil is not a thing. It is the lack of a thing.

Evil is nothing. It is not a thing that has existence. It is an action of something that is a thing. When I do something that is not good, then I am doing something that is evil, but evil then is an activity of some being. It has no being of itself.

Augustine and Thomas Aquinas use the words negation and privation to define evil. Negation talks in terms of what something is not. For example, we say God is infinite which means He is not finite. Evil in this sense can only be defined against the backdrop of what is good. In biblical terms, evil is defined by words like ungodliness, unrighteousness, injustice, so that the term is used as the negation, the opposite of the positive thing that is being affirmed, so that injustice or un-justness can only be understood against the previous concept of justice. R.C. Sproul

1) God created all things;
2) evil is a thing;
3) therefore, God created evil. If the first two premises are true, the conclusion is inescapable.

This formulation, if sustained, is devastating for Christianity. God would not be good if He knowingly created evil.
Augustine realized that the solution was tied to the question: What is evil? The argument above depends on the idea that evil is a thing (note the second premise). But what if evil is not a "thing" in that sense? Then evil did not need creating. If so, our search for the source of evil will take us in a another direction.

Augustine approached the problem from a different angle. He asked: Do we have any convincing evidence that a good God exists? If independent evidence leads us to conclude that God exists and is good, then He would be incapable of creating evil. Something else, then, must be its source.

If Augustine's approach is fair, it prompts a pair of syllogisms that lead to a different conclusion.

First:
1) All things that God created are good;
2) evil is not good;
3) therefore, evil was not created by God.

Second:
1) God created everything;
2) God did not create evil;
3) therefore, evil is not a thing.
Aside: I give you props for giving verses that seem to support your contention. It is a bold statement to say "

Aside2: It a tricky subject.

Please do not take just one sentence out of my post #526 in order to misquote me. This is a violation of the ToS 1.4.

If you want to call scripture untrue then you are denying the word of God. Here is that scripture one more time as I already explained this in post #526 if you would have made a comment on all I wrote there then we could have discussed this.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[for_his_glory]

2“I have loved you,” says the Lord.
“Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’
Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?”
Says the Lord.
“Yet Jacob I have loved;
3But Esau I have hated,
And laid waste his mountains and his heritage
For the jackals of the wilderness.”

Is laying waste the mountains of an evil people a moral evil? What kind of "bad" did God in this case create? (This did not happen to the man Esau whom God loved enough to give an inheritance in land, buy the way.) When fire rained on Sodom, was that moral "bad" or were these things unpleasant consequences from a judgement by a just God? For the sake of the honor and name of the Lord, I must defend his character against the accusation that he creates more evil. When a man comes home and says he has a "bad" day, does he mean things did not go well or that real moral evil accosted him? One ought to be careful when attributing moral evil to the Maker. The past of being the Accuser of the righteous is not one a Christian ought to take claiming scripture supports God doing/creating/arranging moral evil.

Is moral evil the opposite of peace? What is the opposite of peace? T R O U B L E. God creates trouble. He does not create situations when men are tempted to do more evil. (The Lord does not tempt people nor set up situations where choosing evil is inevitable.) Again, it is a fearful thing to accuse God of being the author of moral evil. He does not take kindly to being accused of moral evil.

This is better and it would have been better to adjusts the opening lines to reflect this. God did not do any moral evil to the descendants of Esau (let alone Esau himself). He does not do moral evil to anyone nor does He tempt anyone to do moral evil.

I've already explained this in post 526 and need not explain it again.

 

[Fastfredy0]

He does not determine what you will choose.

Who does then? Who determines your will? Where did your will come from? There's many, many verses saying God controls aspects of your will (I can give them if asked for), but where is there any verse saying you determined to do X or Y independent of God? From nothing, nothing comes ... so you must have got your will/desires established from some other source and if from another source it must be maintained by that source as NOTHING IS SELF-EXISTANT save God. What/who was this other source?
Aside: the ultimate source (cause) of created things must be eternal (uncaused) so whatever source of power you propose that creates and sustains thing must be eternal.

I can come up with many many decisions that God is not controlling.

You can't even prove there is a God, (aside: we both believe there is a God) so how do you propose to prove this statement? The only way is via the bible so give me a quote.

He gave us power, limited, to make real choices. That is how.

Yes, he gives one choices and He controls our desires which determine what you will choose.
Again, to self-determine a person must be eternal and thus FREE of external influence.

Your body itself determines choices you must make if your well-being is to continue as it currently is. God is not involved.

Yes, my body determined my choices and God determined my body and thus the choices I make. Seeing as God gave me my body (and desires), he thus determines my choices. To say God is not involved implies He didn't control your creation nor does He continue to sustain it. This contradicts Acts 17:28 (and other verses).

I warn you, I like philosophy that matches real life.

I like ideas that match God's word. God rules, not philosophy. Gee, with philosophy a man can become a woman so I take it with a grain of salt.

He gave us power, limited, to make real choices. That is how.

Where does the bible say this power is limited? Seeing that we were nothing at one point, all power we have must be derived from an external source. I submit this power originates from God alone who created all things, you imply that there is another external power that determines our desires. What/who is it?

This is true. Although a great deal he created to run on its own.

Nothing "runs on its own". Hebrews 1:3b upholding all things by the word of his power. Give me a verse saying something runs on its own. Any verse you give is going to contradict Hebrews 1:3 so you will also, assuming you can find a verse which I highly doubt, exegete the verses please.
Aside: There is a school of thought that says God is continually creating...that if God ceased to "uphold ll things by the word of his power" then all creation would cease. It is a false human assumption that anything continues to exist or function the way it does if God did not sustain it (Hebrews 1:3). In the beginning there was God and only God and nothing else, no other power ... so any power that exists does so by the Creator who usually continues to give it properties that we take for granted ....like sinking when trying to walk on water and God intervening and changing the power He sustains, thus allowing Christ (and Peter for a while) to walk on water.

Re: Can God create something He does not control.

What if he does not WANT to control everything?

Premise 1: There is something God does not control
Premise 2: God cannot know what something will do if it's power comes from itself
Conclusion: God is not all knowing (which contradicts scripture ... open theists would say it's not possible to know the future which contradict prophetic scripture)
Premise 1: God does not want to control something
Premise 2: Ephesians 1:11b the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will
Conclusion: Premise 1 contradicts scripture and the is false.

Premise 1: There is something God does not control
Premise 2: Isaiah 42:8b My glory I will not give to another
Conclusion: whatever God does not control can not be a positive thing
Premise 1: There is something God does not control
Premise 2: 1 Chronicles 29:14 "Who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee".
Premise 3: Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (All mighty ... not other power)
Conclusion: If there is some other power like man’s self-determination it would mean God is not all powerful. This is a contradiction of scripture.

Sorry, I missed a “not.” Can God create something He does not want to control?

I wish I have a nickel for every time I did that. To many words for me to know where it is missing from. Not a biggy.
Interesting discussion. Thanks

 

[Fastfredy0]

Scripture does say that God created evil, but only that which falls on those who choose to be God's enemy. [Post 526]

Please do not take just one sentence out of my post #526 in order to misquote me. This is a violation of the ToS 1.4.

Definition of a paragraph: A distinct division of written or printed matter that begins on a new, usually indented line, consists of one or more sentences, and typically deals with a single thought or topic or quotes one speaker's continuous words.

You said "God created evil" and it is in a paragraph that stands alone. I've given the definition of a paragraph.... "usually deals with a SINGLE THOUGHT". You said "

Scripture does say that God created evil, but only that which falls on those who choose to be God's enemy.

So either God creates evil or He does not. You said He does create evil in certain instances, fine. Like, I cut and pasted it so don't say I misquoted you. I dealt with the statement as it stood and copied and as a majority of people would have understood what you said IMO. Again, in certain circumstances you believe God creates evil. I don't believe that to be true and I listed the metaphysical reasons why. I certainly didn't misquote you.
Now, did I misunderstand you, maybe; you obviously think so. Did you not mean what you wrote as would be understood by the average reader, I don't know ... maybe.

I assume you still disagree with me. We both have bias' ... I'm willing to let it go as a misunderstanding or whatever. If you don't want to let it go we can have an arbitrator decide.

Aside: Due to your perceived sensitivity. I will not comment on your posts in the future. Perhaps this will qualm your anger. I apologize if I was at fault, though I honestly do not feel that to be the case.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Did God tell Adam all his descendants would have a sin nature (defect) ?

I don't know. Gee, Adam's nature was changed. Not like one can change his own nature. Did he recognize what he once was (the image of God) and compare it to what he now is? (note: many think we are still in the image of God not that many know what that means... I digress) Hmmm, at least Adam had a before/after image of himself .... whereas, to some degree those that are regenerated get a after/semi-before image??(chronological order) Beats me.

Aside: I always thought that if anyone deserved to go to hell it was Adam ... but then I don't make those decisions or set the rules.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Who does then?

You do. Why does it have to be someone else? The whole world, God included, holds you responsible for the choices you make. If someone steals your car or your favorite shirt or your baby daughter, you do not ask who determined that they should do this. If what you think in your mind does not match real life, then you will never find that your thinking provides the peace and freedom that the truth provides. Anyone can reject the truth but they will live with one way they think life is and a totally different way they life. This state is not freedom but a prison.

Who determines your will? Where did your will come from?

You do. You were given a will as a free moral agent at birth or conception.

There's many, many verses saying God controls aspects of your will (I can give them if asked for),

Like where? If you are going to look into those few times in human history where God strengthened a man or stood against a man, then these are not Him determining the choice of the will. But it might take inside knowledge of how this works. If you want to find words that will accuse God of overriding free will from non-yielding participants, you will not find any understanding of the ways of God.

but where is there any verse saying you determined to do X or Y independent of God? From nothing, nothing comes ... so you must have got your will/desires established from some other source and if from another source it must be maintained by that source as NOTHING IS SELF-EXISTANT save God. What/who was this other source?

There is no verse that says you must sleep or you die. None. There is no verse that say a man must close his eyes in a dust storm or they will be damaged. I can find infinite truths that are not addressed in the Bible. They are assumed because that is human experience and the Bible is not an exhaustive book on all we must do or all that there is. It is written so that we understand and know God and man.

The fact that God and man hold us responsible for our choices is the proof. Why does there need to be a verse to state what is obvious and what all of mankind Iive by? If there is punishment for choices in the scripture from Genesis, then that is the proof that we make choices independent of God's will. But isn't that obvious?

Aside: the ultimate source (cause) of created things must be eternal (uncaused) so whatever source of power you propose that creates and sustains thing must be eternal.

You can't even prove there is a God, (aside: we both believe there is a God) so how do you propose to prove this statement? The only way is via the bible so give me a quote.

Proof is for mathematics and alcohol. Everything else is evidence. Evidence is what we live by, not proof.

Yes, he gives one choices and He controls our desires which determine what you will choose.

He does not control our desires or we would live in a different world. The fact that man and angels did what He forbids tells us he does not control our desires. What does our conscience tell us about our choices?

Again, to self-determine a person must be eternal and thus FREE of external influence.

No, why does that have to be fulfilled? When a man is in a prison, he does not consider himself free. When he is released he does. Those unnecessary conditions do not need to be fulfilled. Why do you get to require this, pardon my direct question.

Yes, my body determined my choices and God determined my body and thus the choices I make. Seeing as God gave me my body (and desires), he thus determines my choices. To say God is not involved implies He didn't control your creation nor does He continue to sustain it. This contradicts Acts 17:28 (and other verses).

Incorrect. Your parents determined your body and thus the choices you make. Is that fair and right? I mean it is true, a bit of your parents determined your body. This is undeniable. So they are responsible for the choices you make, right?

I like ideas that match God's word. God rules, not philosophy. Gee, with philosophy a man can become a woman so I take it with a grain of salt.

Depends upon if the man hatching the philosophy loves truth or not. God's word, by the way, gives a wise man also a philosophy.

Where does the bible say this power is limited? Seeing that we were nothing at one point, all power we have must be derived from an external source. I submit this power originates from God alone who created all things, you imply that there is another external power that determines our desires. What/who is it?

The government has the power to determine how fast you can drive, if you can pursue certain activities and a host of other matters. The person you live with, if that is to continue, has the power to determine your choices. Your employer limits your choices. There are lots of external powers that limit your power to choose. The Bible does not address the obvious and why should it. It is a book about the interactions of God with man that we might know and understand Him. It is not a comprehensive book about our internal workings, both physical, mental and emotional.

Nothing "runs on its own". Hebrews 1:3b upholding all things by the word of his power. Give me a verse saying something runs on its own. Any verse you give is going to contradict Hebrews 1:3 so you will also, assuming you can find a verse which I highly doubt, exegete the verses please.
Aside: There is a school of thought that says God is continually creating...that if God ceased to "uphold ll things by the word of his power" then all creation would cease. It is a false human assumption that anything continues to exist or function the way it does if God did not sustain it (Hebrews 1:3). In the beginning there was God and only God and nothing else, no other power ... so any power that exists does so by the Creator who usually continues to give it properties that we take for granted ....like sinking when trying to walk on water and God intervening and changing the power He sustains, thus allowing Christ (and Peter for a while) to walk on water.

God stopped creating not the 7th say, the Bible says. One can accept this or insist the Bible is not telling the truth and God is still creating although there is no evidence of this whatsoever. When Hebrews said he upholds things, it does not mean that he is micromanaging things. Why did he make creatures able to reproduce on their own, tell them to reproduce and then micromanaging that process? He did not say, "Go and reproduce and fill the earth but ask me each time you want a child and I will grant that prayer."

Re: Can God create something He does not control.

Premise 1: There is something God does not control
Premise 2: God cannot know what something will do if it's power comes from itself
Conclusion: God is not all knowing (which contradicts scripture ... open theists would say it's not possible to know the future which contradict prophetic scripture)

Your premise 2 is incorrect. If I drop a hammer, I am not controlling its downward plunge, but I KNOW that it will fall and not go up. I nevertheless cannot control where it falls. So the idea that God is not controlling something means he does not know is deeply underestimating his understanding of how the world he makes works. God has superior knowledge aside from foreknowledge.
Part 2 to follow

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Fastfredy0

Premise 1: God does not want to control something
Premise 2: Ephesians 1:11b the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will
Conclusion: Premise 1 contradicts scripture and the is false.

What is the counsel of his will? That all men repent and come to a knowledge of Him. Do they? If he is supposed to be working all things according to His will, how does this then not happen? The answer is because his will is not summed up in a few words. It is complex as He is complex. I do understand it though so some degree.

Premise 1: There is something God does not control
Premise 2: Isaiah 42:8b My glory I will not give to another
Conclusion: whatever God does not control can not be a positive thing

Your conclusion does not follow your premise at all. God does not control our love for Him. If he did, it would not be positive. So love, to be love, must be freely given and not controlled. The controlling you are leaning towards, in fact, is actually quite negative and borders on evil in some cases, if not outright evil. When a man drugs another man so he can enact his will upon them, we consider this very evil. Is this what you think God is doing? Are you sure you want to say this? Think about it.

Premise 1: There is something God does not control
Premise 2: 1 Chronicles 29:14 "Who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee".
Premise 3: Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (All mighty ... not other power)
Conclusion: If there is some other power like man’s self-determination it would mean God is not all powerful. This is a contradiction of scripture.

And yet no scripture tells you that all those things that come of Him are doing his will. It says the opposite. Do you want to understand this or do you want to insist on proposing questions to prevent understanding Him and his ways? I have met people who do not want understanding but prefer to still to asking questions based on clinging to taking a few words and making them say something they cannot possibly be saying and which is contradicted in life and elsewhere in the Book.

I wish I have a nickel for every time I did that. To many words for me to know where it is missing from. Not a biggy.
Interesting discussion. Thanks

Thanks. I am afraid I am very direct. I ask you those hard questions because I think you can take it, which is, please understand, a compliment to your intellect and character. Please see this as such.

By the way, your post in 553 nailed it so clearly and succinctly, I was very impressed. That was the best description of the kind of posts one deals with there that I have ever read. It was nice to read someone putting the difficulties into words that so described the problem so well. I cannot be more clear without unpleasant consequences. Kudos.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I've already explained this in post 526 and need not explain it again.

You wrongly accuse Fastfredy0 of misquoting you which he did not. He cut and pasted your exact words. You, yourself, need to be more careful in writing out sentences that you do not agree with and are unhappy when posters quote those very sentences word for word. Now that is the last I will say of this and I only deviate from my promise in order to defend the character of God or, in this case, Fredy whom you falsely accused of violating the ToS which he did not.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't know. Gee, Adam's nature was changed. Not like one can change his own nature. Did he recognize what he once was (the image of God) and compare it to what he now is? (note: many think we are still in the image of God not that many know what that means... I digress) Hmmm, at least Adam had a before/after image of himself .... whereas, to some degree those that are regenerated get a after/semi-before image??(chronological order) Beats me.

Aside: I always thought that if anyone deserved to go to hell it was Adam ... but then I don't make those decisions or set the rules.

Where does scripture say Adam's nature was changed? Did God tell Adam that his nature would be changed or that his nature was changed? Did he tell Cain that his nature was changed because of his father's sin? Where does it say that Adam had a before and after image of himself? Just wondering...

 

[JLB]

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

Yes, those are the different words for the Hebrew word kelalah.

Evil doesn’t seem to be the best translation.

IOW, we know God caused or created the earth to open up and swallow alive the rebellious Israelites in the days of Moses.

So we must ask ourselves if that is evil, or is it calamity or misery for the rebellious?


We know the Lord created the lake of fire. But is the lake of fire evil or a place of distress and misery fr the rebellious?

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41




JLB

 

[JLB]

Interesting thoughts.
Regarding "God didn't create mathematics." Hmmm, I'm thinking as I go here ... hmmmm

Premise 1: Mathematics would exist even if God did not exist
Premise 2: Without God there would be nothing.
Conclusion: Mathematics is nothing.
Hmmm... what is mathematics then ... I suppose a concept that doesn't exist without a host/spirit. OK, I can agree that God didn't create math, that math doesn't exist save in a host/spirit.

Mathematics is a man made word much like Systematic Theology.
God created numbers.


The scriptures are from God.
Systematic Theology is from man.