In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't know. Why did the bible not tell us the color of Christ's eyes? I don't know that either.
Why did Jesus not tell the other that the properties of water were the same? Why is the sky blue, Jesus doesn't say?
A biblical occurrence with a without a scientific, peered reviewed paper doesn't support or deny possibilities.

Chaff. That has nothing to do with the argument. The reason Christ did not tell them all to come was because the properties of the water itself had not changed.

God is knowable and incomprehensible. It is not possible to understand the infinite with a finite mind.

Yes it is. I know and comprehend God. I know his ways, that is, what He does and why (when it pertains to me. The rest of the world is none of my business unless He makes it my business.)

Premise 1: "My thoughts are not your thoughts, my ways are not your ways"
Conclusion: One cannot understand God
Now, you knowledge of God is definitely superior to most and God gave you an excellent mind relative to most and the Spirit has given superior understanding to most ... but no one understands God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Only the thoughts of the wicked are lower (much) than God's. Paul wrote that some had the mind of Christ.
Premise1: some "have the mind of Christ"
Premise2: Christ's mind is of the same height as the mind of God
Conclusions: some have thoughts that are on the same level as God's (in certain points)

"Let him who boasts boast in this, that he UNDERSTANDS and KNOWS Me." I understand and know God but it is not because of intelligence or luck or God predestining me to know and understand Him. It is not at all from my abilities.

I think "seeking God" needed definition and we may have been approaching the subject differently. I agree, seeking (learning about) God is rewarding. About 10 years ago, I said ...hmm, what should I read next (I liked fantasies like The Hobbit). I thought, what would be most beneficial. Well, the Bible is truth, can't beat that.

I see seeking God as pursuing personal relationship with Him. (The Hobbit and LoTR also are great.)

Gee, I fooled you.

Laughed.

 

[hawkman]

When you say "conviction" and you thought "it can't be," what was the "it" you thought cannot be? If you don't mind me asking.

There is no regeneration until the person acts on the conviction(in a positive way) from the Holy Spirit .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I said: Romans 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

"For we have the mind of Christ." I guess some have known the mind of the Lord.

Premise1: Romans 11:34 rhetorical question implying no one counsels God. God does not learn (which would contradict His immutability.
Premise 2: Free Will implies God learns from our FREE (not determined by God) will choices.
Conclusion: We tell God things He didn't know.
Aside: Free Wills usual response IMO ...well, that's a mystery (in other words, they can't explain it

Premise 2 is wrong. It assumes God does not know because He does not control. It underestimates the intelligence of God. There are a number of things we as men know but do not control. Lots and lots.

Premise [2} is wrong. God tells us to do things we cannot do. Do you have a verse for substantiate the claim? I am almost position your claim is this based on an assumption? Verses proving premise 2 is false.

• Genesis 4:7 If you do well [believing Me and doing what is acceptable and pleasing to Me], will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well [but ignore My instruction], sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you [to overpower you], but you must master it.” No one masters sin. It is an impossible request.

Do you really think it is impossible not to murder someone who dislike? That is what you are saying. Why then did God punish Cain if it was not his fault? "Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach." Deut 30:11 NIV God does not agree with your position besides it attributing injustice to God to make a command he cannot keep and punish him for that.

• Ezekiel 37:4 “Prophecy to these (dead) bones, and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord!'” (Notice, those dead bones had no ability to hear the word of the Lord. God had to give those skeletons life first, before they had the ability to hear the word of the Lord.)

• Mark 12:30 “you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.” Yeah, like who do you know that has obey this command completely

You judge God and render the verdict that He unjustly gives impossible commands because you personal do not know anyone who loves God that much?

• Luke 7:14 “a dead man was being carried out…Then He came and touched the open coffin…and He said, ‘Young man, I say to you, arise.'” The dead man couldn’t hear, until Christ first gave His miraculous power to him.

You assume you know how the miracles of Christ worked behind the scenes? The body is more than ears. And by the way, you quote the verses, but you are going beyond them assuming in depth knowledge of the matter where no scripture gives it. The dead man had a spirit and spirits hear.

• Luke 8:49-55 “Your daughter is dead…He…took her by the hand and called saying, ‘Little girl, arise.’ Then her spirit returned, and she arose immediately.” The dead girl had no power to arise until Christ gave it to her.

How does this show that God is responsible for us obeying Him and how come then you do not see anyone who loves God will all their being if God is making it happen? If it is God who gives the power to obey, how come we do not see more obedience to the commands? Do you see what you are accusing God of?

• John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. Like, who loves others as Christ does
• John 15:12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you
• 1 Corinthians 15:34 “Awake to righteousness and sin not”.
• 2 Corinthians 10:5 and take every thought captive to obey Christ ... who has done this
• Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God ... who has done this
• Ephesians 5:20 giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, ... who has done this
• 1 Thessalonians 5:16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. [Tom Constable defines without ceasing as frequently] ... who has done this
• Ephesians 4:1b urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. ... who has done this
• 1 John 2:1 “My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not”. ...hasn't been done this side of glorification

You are judging the effectiveness or mercy or power of God by the lacking of man obeying? There are those who have taken thoughts captive to Christ. There are those who chose not to grieve the Holy Spirit. There are those who choose to give thanks to God when it did not arise naturally. There are those who pray a lot and rejoice often and walk in a manner worthy of their calling at least at times. Here I could write a lot about the heart and mind of God on this but it will again get too long.

Aside: I like when you use premises. Easier to comment on proposed logical thinking

I LEARNED IT FROM YOU!!!!

_______
Re: Fastfredy0 said:
Psalm 33:10 The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nought; He makes the thoughts and plans of the peoples of no effect. [puppets … our thoughts and plans are of NO EFFECT]

Were the plans of David brought to no effect? Were the plans of Paul to no effect? You site a bunch of commands of God and complain that they are to no effect (who does them you ask) as though your perception of their fulfillment is sufficient to negate them and yet here you tell me that the thoughts and plans of people are to no effect and live in a world where men thought of and planned and brought about amazing effects. We communicate now from the thoughts and plans of people which gave us the energy, computer, and ease. Do you see the problem with taking that scripture and applying it to life and telling us that no plans of man and no thoughts of men every bring about any effect because the scriptures says so? You are using the verses like a law book instead of a book about the actions of the living God so that we might know him

Always going to the reason for sin in the world to draw your doctrine. Consider:

• Acts 2:23 this Man, when handed over [to the Roman authorities] according to the predetermined decision and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross and put to death by the hands of lawless and godless men.

That was Jesus whom was destined by the decision and foreknowledge of God to be "crucified before the foundation of the world." Jesus. No one else in the Bible was described as God ordaining them before the foundation of the world. Jesus was special, surely we agree upon that. God's plan for him was unique in all of human history. Do you think this then describes every single person because He destined Jesus for the roll he would play?

Ben Shapiro - What you want to believe you tend to believe and you tend to look for excuses to believe it.
I'll leave it at that.

Ditto. You take scriptures out of context and force them to accuse God of that which he does not do. The above was the worst. You take scriptures that talk about Jesus who was foreshadowed in Genesis and tell me that this is exactly what God does for every single person on the planet. Jesus did the will of God. Do you see that he is different than others?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

There is no regeneration until the person acts on the conviction from the Holy Spirit .

God calls and man responds, true. Calvinists go a step farther and say something to the effect that a man has to be born again before he can respond to the Gospel and be born again, which besides being logically nonsense, it means the man is a puppet without any will. It is not a compliment to the God who calls.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Romans 9:18-23 (I think)

Always going to the reason for evil in the world. YOU TELL ME WHY GOD WANTS SIN. Can He not control it? Does He want it? Do something have control of God? Has God shunned you sovereignity to his creation? ... Anyways,
Premise 1: God can clean up the mess on aisle 7 ... He can end sin. We know this because when we are glorified we will no longer sin
Premise 2: sin continues to exist
Conclusion: God wants sin to continue in the world.

Aside: Hope you are taking all this an interesting and playful exchange of ideas. In general, people prefer and enjoy other people who agree with them. (Two cannot walk together unless they are agreed)

Part 2 of ? .. lol .. I need to get a life
Gee, went over limit on length

I hate when I get the >1000 characters refusal to post. Means editing.... Yes I find this interesting and you are also playful.

Back to our regularly scheduled program...

Regarding the above premise...I understand the whole of the matter quite well, but I do not think I can clean up the misunderstanding in a few words and am doubtful it can be done for you coming from where you are at. You probably do not see it, or maybe you do, but your theology has you being comfortable with accusing God of evil. It is not your fault as that is what those you quote have made themselves comfortable with. When one believes that God does not always do moral good, but is ready to believe he does or promotes or arranges or is behind (whatever verb is preferable) moral evil, then it is likely impossible to communicate anything contrary. He who comes to God must believe that He is good because He is good. That truth must be thoroughly secure in the mind of those who want to understand God. I also know the reason for that and as with all matters of the mind and ways of God, it is complex. So perhaps we move on from this point...

 

[Dorothy Mae]

1. 1. God's word (He decreed all things...Eph. 1:11:

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Does not support your thesis. Does not say he decreed ALL THINGS.

1. Numerous passages assert the decree, the purpose, the determinate counsel (Acts 2:23), the foreknowledge (Romans 11:2; Romans 8:29; 1 Peter 1:2), the foreordination, the election (Romans 8:30, see Elect, chosen, appointed, predestinated), the drawing (John 12:32; John 6:44), the hardening/blinding, the choosing (Ephesians 1:4-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 2:9, John 6:70, John 13:18; Acts 1:2; Isaiah 44:1b), and the divine purpose (Ephesians 1:9; Ephesians 3:11; Romans 8:28), by which God is said to act,)

None of those say he determined who goes to Heaven and who goes to hell before the foundation of the world. You need to actually paste the scripture because the first one I did, does not even come close to that premise. I assume the rest are equally off. A bit harsh but I have gotten this a LOT. A host of verses from other posters as they assume that settles it when not one of them address the point. It was once called "Gish" meaning a slew of verses and the other side gives up.

1. and the "Law of Causality" (explained that earlier)
2. logic (God attributes logically lead us to this conclusion (like I could give, say 100 example of God's attributes causing us to conclude that He caused us to believe which is contrary to the FREE WILL theory which isn't even scriptural, but a fabrication to support anthropocentric theology like "God loves everyone" and "God must be fair by man's understanding of fairness" or "God can't show partiality through the prism of man's understanding of the term". I said I could do a 100 or so... here's one:

Premise 1: God knows all things
Premise 2: Before creation (technically there was no time before create so "before" may be a misnomer....anyways, before creation knew all things that would occur
Conclusion: As there is nothing nor no one else to determine future events and nothing nor no one else to teach God what the future would be we must conclude God determined it all. Aside: this handles your following statement:

False. Knowing is neither controlling nor predetermining. We as man know a lot and are nevertheless not controlling nor predetermining all that we know. But we have discussed this.

Aside: "infinite regression", haven't heard that term for awhile. "A regress into an infinite sequence of propositions". For man this seems infinite; for God it is not. Even man can figure out the finite sequence starts with God though the progression from God to you or I see infinite to us.


Aside: these back and forth discussion are taking a long time... Luckily, I don't have a life and it is fun. Would be more fun if you just agreed with me. I did give you props on INDOCTRINATION. Darn if last night Sarah Huckabee Sanders(Governor of Arkansas) does say basically, "indoctrination is not teaching". (Hmmmm ... ponders ... you didn't have anything to do with her speech writing, did you?)

It was God who arranged that to give some truthful challenge to your thinking....God.....(he loves you and wants you to "come to a knowledge of the truth.")

_________
Re: “God’s will is, and rightly ought to be, the cause of all things that are. For if it has any cause, something must precede it.” John Calvin
Your response:

Where in scripture ... (aside: always me providing scripture and rarely you .... *giggles* You know, your arguments would be elevated if you they could be backed up by scriptures you find. As our mutual presupposition is "whatever Scripture says vanquishes all other arguments, any scripture you provided woud be great 'ammo' ) ... anyways ...
Re: Where in scripture ... I gave 15ish verses above.

None of those verses support Calvin's statement, which by the way, does not include any scripture. God's will is not always done (do you really need a verse for that besides what I previously gave you?) which is why we are to pray it is.

You know, the free will side has theodicy problems too. (a vindication of God's goodness and justice in the face of the existence of evil) (if you want to go there I could, but in private ... the vultures would like to take advantage of perceived vulnerability)

You can do so but I see no problems at all and so am not afraid.

_________________________
Re: I said: Now...if you can give me an example of something that was not caused (excluding God) then you would disprove the Law of Causality; otherwise my question to you still requires an answer:

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [note verse 12 show John is referring to faith that is the instrumental cause of salvation and verse 13 is going to tell us both what the cause is and what the cause is not] 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Ah, but the opening requirement on the part of the man is to receive Him. That comes first. The line of events are: man receiving him and then following that, to them he gave power and that power came from God. The man cannot will that power for himself but if he does not receive him under his own free will choice, there will be no power delivered. The man must FIRST receive him. That is the order.

So, we have salvation of any individual and the cause is not the WILL OF MAN, nor the WILL OF THE FLESH, but GOD.
So, we have the ultimate cause (First Cause) as God and the effect is the salvation of any person.

The cause is receiving Him. Many rejected the call and rejected him. They refused the will of God. We have gone over your first cause theory and I reject it because of chaos theory. Chaos is introduced when free will is in play. Laws no longer apply when living beings are making choices among options considering the matter carefully (as God does.)

 

[Fastfredy0]

Not everything he did was for us. He had desires and pleasures too. One of my favorite verses is "how long do I have to put up with you?" Shows exasperation, a very human feeling.

One of your favorites is "how long do I have to put up with you?" Gee, I wouldn't think that would be a favorite for any one on the planet. Bad news for Him.... we are in Him and to be married to Him and be any where He is I believe. He better enjoy being apart while He can. (Yeah, probably my comment out of context)



Fastfredy0 said: Re: Please provide scripture showing God's will is not followed.

I did: They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice

Yeah, and I replied with: that's an anthropomorphism and gave my proof. We can let it go.

Fredy, you are too good a man to have a theology that you cannot apply to real life.

Ah, I disagree with the first premise *smile* ... I think my theology can be applied to real life. You disagree with me but I think your theology can be applied to real life. Hey, we just talk about disagreement and not agreement which is 95% (wild guess).

Does your conscience confirm that you always obey the will of God and follow Jesus' teaching (which is the same thing) all day every day?

Heck no. I pray every night for forgiveness. My only consolation is nights where I am unaware of what I did wrong.
Aside: I am with Augustine who said: Grant us the ability to comply with Your commands and command as You will and give us the ability to do as You ask and ask as You will – Augustine
My point is I don't believe I do anything good; what I do good is caused by God. I assign your believe your Free Will causes you to obey.

oh, I like this quote too while looking for the one above ... not sure who: The greatest obstacle to theological discovery is not ignorance but the illusion of knowledge; the conviction that you already have it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

One of your favorites is "how long do I have to put up with you?" Gee, I wouldn't think that would be a favorite for any one on the planet. Bad news for Him.... we are in Him and to be married to Him and be any where He is I believe. He better enjoy being apart while He can. (Yeah, probably my comment out of context)

I think it is pretty funny. Can't you relate to those feelings?

Fastfredy0 said: Re: Please provide scripture showing God's will is not followed.

OK, here is the lazy choice I make

Isaiah 66:4 So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called ...
... and will bring on them what they dread. For when I ... , no one listened. They did evil in my sight and ... when I called, they did not answer. When I spoke ...

Isaiah 66:4 - Heaven is My Throne

So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight.

biblehub.com

1 Kings 11:33 For they have forsaken Me to worship Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh
... I will do this because they have forsaken me and worshiped ... as David, Solomon's father, did. For Solomon has abandoned ... and worshiped Ashtoreth, the goddess of the Sidonians; Chemosh, ...

1 Kings 11:33 - Jeroboam's Rebellion

For they have forsaken Me to worship Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the Ammonites. They have not walked in My ways, nor done what is right in My eyes, nor kept My statutes and judgments, as Solomon's father David did.

biblehub.com

Jeremiah 34:18 And those who have transgressed My covenant and have not fulfilled the terms of the ... men who transgressed my covenant and did not keep the terms of ... have violated my covenant and have not fulfilled the terms of the ...

Jeremiah 34:18 - Freedom for Hebrew Slaves

And those who have transgressed My covenant and have not fulfilled the terms of the covenant they made before Me, I will treat like the calf they cut in two in order to pass between its pieces.

biblehub.com

Ezekiel 20:21 But the children rebelled against Me. They did not walk in My statutes or carefully ...
... the children rebelled against me: They did not follow my decrees

I guess it is so obvious that people do not do the will of God and you admit you do not either that I wonder why you ask to be shown that GOd's will is not followed. Isn't it obvious? Now I know you have avoided this by embracing two different kinds of the will of God. I asked you for scriptures that describe these two DIFFERENT kinds of the will of GOd. Did you find them for me and I missed them?

Yeah, and I replied with: that's an anthropomorphism and gave my proof. We can let it go.

The verse describes where they disobeyed God and God responds that they did what he did not even think of you and your answer dismisses that and I guess every word where the men who wrote the Bible and walked with God used verbs that we too, made in his image, experience as therefore untrue? You personally decide the Bible writer was wrong about what God thought and said? Is that like you do not believe God "considers" as that is just and anthropomorphism? That is surely an easy way to just black out verses that you do not like. How will you come to a knowledge of the truth if you decide that those words do not mean what they say because you do not like what they mean?

Ah, I disagree with the first premise *smile* ... I think my theology can be applied to real life. You disagree with me but I think your theology can be applied to real life. Hey, we just talk about disagreement and not agreement which is 95% (wild guess).

Well, if you ever get angry at man instead of God, you have violated your theology. Your theology is God wills everything that happen so you need to be angry at God and never man who is just a puppet, right?

Heck no. I pray every night for forgiveness. My only consolation is nights where I am unaware of what I did wrong.
Aside: I am with Augustine who said: Grant us the ability to comply with Your commands and command as You will and give us the ability to do as You ask and ask as You will – Augustine
My point is I don't believe I do anything good; what I do good is caused by God. I assign your believe your Free Will causes you to obey.

oh, I like this quote too while looking for the one above ... not sure who: The greatest obstacle to theological discovery is not ignorance but the illusion of knowledge; the conviction that you already have it.

OK.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I bring this up because in my experience, this is where the reformed believers and I separate. They cannot life the theology they espouse. They get angry when wrong is done to them or those they love (rightly so) but their theology tells them they ought not to be angry as it was always God's will for that wrong to be done.

Hmmm... got to think on this. Reformed guys get more angry than non-reformed Christians when wrong done to them. Hmmm, that's not my experience but I don't have a large sample size ....lol

LOL at theology tell them they ought not to be angry as it was always God's will ... gee, I am literally laughing. Don't take this wrong, but that sounds silly to me. Again, I don't have a big sample size to deny it LOL.
I have heard conclusion like Reformed guys don't think they should evangelize as who every God chose is safe and who He didn't chose we can't do anything about ... giggles ... has a ring of truth at first but reformed don't know who is chosen so they evangelize (and then let God step in as He chooses) .... and then there are hyper-calvinist that get associated with 'normal' Calvinists (I won't define "normal"... lol)

I'm going to bed...don't work too hard. Been fun. Aside: I still haven't seen any BOLD TYPE indicating agreement, just saying .. hint, hint.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hmmm... got to think on this. Reformed guys get more angry than non-reformed Christians when wrong done to them. Hmmm, that's not my experience but I don't have a large sample size ....lol

I’m afraid that’s not what I said. If your position is God wills everything all people do, then those who believe this should never ever be angry at any man. If always God who did what occurred. They can be angry at God. It’s all His fault in that theology. Being angry at man shows they don’t believe God is sovereign over man’s choices. They really do blame the man for his freely chosen action, not God.

LOL at theology tell them they ought not to be angry as it was always God's will ... gee, I am literally laughing. Don't take this wrong, but that sounds silly to me. Again, I don't have a big sample size to deny it LOL.

But don’t you see this shows none of you really believe there’s no free will?

I have heard conclusion like Reformed guys don't think they should evangelize as who every God chose is safe and who He didn't chose we can't do anything about ... giggles ... has a ring of truth at first but reformed don't know who is chosen so they evangelize (and then let God step in as He chooses) .... and then there are hyper-calvinist that get associated with 'normal' Calvinists (I won't define "normal"... lol)

I read the Pilgrims didn’t evangelize for that reason.

I'm going to bed...don't work too hard. Been fun. Aside: I still haven't seen any BOLD TYPE indicating agreement, just saying .. hint, hint.

I AGREE!!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Fastfredy0

Premise 1: There is no free will for man
Premise 2: Man must make various choices in life

Conclusion: Someone else (God) is making those choices for each man

Premise 1: Nothing happens outside of God’s will.
Premise 2: You sometimes experience injustice because of choices others make
Premise 3: God is actually making those choices for that man

Conclusion: You should never be angry at the perpetrator who had no free will choice but at God who chose for that man.

This isn’t a joke because there is a brother struggling after believing , falling away and then returning out and out is angry at God for that happening. He believes the above (an honest person) and is then rightfully angry at the Someone who willed it to be so.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I apologize for the poor wording and wrong words. Writing at 3 am has its pitfalls. My syntax and wording is embarrassing. But I know you’re merciful and gracious.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Premise 1: Calvin said God is love
Premise 2: God said He is love
Premise 3: Jethro says Calvin theology is empty theology
Conclusion: Jethro thinks "God is love" is empty theology

This is faulty logic because what Calvin defines as God's love is not God's love.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

*Scratches his head in bewilderment* So, Calvinism and non-Calvinism agree. What's your point?

You are bewildered by my statements because Calvinists seem to only be able to understand the word 'make' within the context of their doctrine.

Calvinism: God makes you a saved person from the foundation of the world apart from any consideration of your will.

Non-Calvinism: God makes you a saved person when, of your own free will, you meet the criteria of believing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Non-Calvinism: You become responsible when I make you responsible.

I think you need to proof read what you wrote. It doesn't seem coherent to me. It would be authoritative if you can give scripture to support Jethro's theology instead of uncorroborated statements like this idea is wrong and this one is right without foundation.

Responsibility for sin guilt comes when a person receives accountable knowledge of sin, and commits that sin:

7... Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the law. For I would not have been aware of coveting if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”a 8But sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from the law, sin is dead.

9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10So I discovered that the very commandment that was meant to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through the commandment put me to death.
Romans 7:7-11 BSB

Before that accountability comes we can see from the passage that person is "alive". Not saved. Not born again. Not regenerated. Not even enlightened in any way. Just not responsible for and condemned by that which they have no accountable knowledge of yet.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Everyone engaged in counseling to help people with undesirable habits will tell you that God is not determining habits and they know exactly how habits are formed and how to break them. I mean, they can otherwise hang up their shingle as no man can change habits God did. And yet, many have helped people break habits. Man 1 God 0

Question at hand IMO (trying to stay on subject) ... so many posts and no statement of what we are debating.
I believe the debate is Whether or not all actions are are determined by God or not (which would invalid the idea of Free Will as defined as making choices unaffected by God). My response is based on this assumption.

Well, if you measurement of any action or result on the planet and assume there is no God, then the score is Man 100% and God 0%. I admit we can't even prove there is a God. I agree man is involved in billions of actions or results on the planet and as we cannot prove that God even exists let alone whether God determined those actions or results, that only empirical evidence is to be considered, then the score Man 100% and God 0%.

But, using a biblical world view ... the presupposition is God exists and the bible is 100% true. Using this standard, and seeing you are a Christian you must agree to this standard ... your statement must be discarded at it in no way proves or disproves whether or not God determined these events. Your primary source of proof should be based on the biblical world view or ration logic like 1 + 1 = 2. These are the sources upon with questions concerning God must rely.
Empirical observations can only be uses to validate biblical dogma ... like, the bible says the rain falls on everyone then one can used empirical data to determine the meaning of that biblical statement.

Given that the biblical standards of theological study I submit:
Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
This verse and others like it (Acts 17:28a, Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 1:3, Romans 11:36) show that God is the reason we continue to exist moment by moment. His causing us to exist moment by moment is the foundation for everything we do and logically the cause of our continued existence and is necessary for anything we do. Your example ignores this fact.
God cause our hands, feet, heart, mind, will, yahda, yahda to exist and to exist as He designed> God is the primary/first antecedent (one that precedes another) of all things (He created heaven and earth and without Him what exists now would not be). These verses show God to be the First Cause (law of causality) of all things and necessary cause of what we do.

I wish you would use more scripture to validate statements. When one considers man's point of view exclusively and ignores biblical truth I admit I have no case....that man is free from God to do whatever he wants.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Like a number (if not all) clever people, I can rip someone to shreds with my tongue and it all be true. (God worked on that bad quality back in my teens so I mostly have it under control in my thoughts as well as words, but not always.)

Ah, so you say "God worked on the bad habit". What? not your free will ?.... gotcha .... (had to take cheap shot when I saw a vulnerable moment ... just teasing

RE: I have seen prayers answered including praying for a lame woman who got up and walked. (It was not in the first world and no crowd was watching. It was for her, not show. But it was really my partner who had the faith and power for the hour. I was just a woman of paste and flour.

Wow, I could use that 'booster shot' to increase my faith. Nice.
... hmmm.... Forum software not working on REPLY button so I couldn't copy properly.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Question at hand IMO (trying to stay on subject) ... so many posts and no statement of what we are debating.
I believe the debate is Whether or not all actions are are determined by God or not (which would invalid the idea of Free Will as defined as making choices unaffected by God). My response is based on this assumption.

Correct. I AGREE. Summation well said!!

Well, if you measurement of any action or result on the planet and assume there is no God, then the score is Man 100% and God 0%. I admit we can't even prove there is a God. I agree man is involved in billions of actions or results on the planet and as we cannot prove that God even exists let alone whether God determined those actions or results, that only empirical evidence is to be considered, then the score Man 100% and God 0%.

We both agree He is there so this is immaterial. Plays no role. You present no scripture here, btw.

But, using a biblical world view ... the presupposition is God exists and the bible is 100% true. Using this standard, and seeing you are a Christian you must agree to this standard ... your statement must be discarded at it in no way proves or disproves whether or not God determined these events.

When God says he did, it establishes He did. (do you need scripture or do you believe this?) When he says man disobeyed Him, this establishes that He didn’t. (Do you need scripture that man disobeyed or do you believe it?) Going by what God says of Himself as is my habit.

Your primary source of proof should be based on the biblical world view or ration logic like 1 + 1 = 2. These are the sources upon with questions concerning God must rely.
Empirical observations can only be uses to validate biblical dogma ... like, the bible says the rain falls on everyone then one can used empirical data to determine the meaning of that biblical statement.

Given that the biblical standards of theological study I submit:
Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
This verse and others like it (Acts 17:28a, Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 1:3, Romans 11:36) show that God is the reason we continue to exist moment by moment. His causing us to exist moment by moment is the foundation for everything we do and logically the cause of our continued existence and is necessary for anything we do. Your example ignores this fact.

Not at all. We NEVER discussed existence as opposed to
being dead. But that we are alive doesn’t lead to us being puppets. Those scriptures don’t say every one is alive today because God is actively keeping them alive. The Job verse says man dies. We don’t need a Bible verse to know this do we?

God cause our hands, feet, heart, mind, will, yahda, yahda to exist and to exist as He designed>

No, He designed and ordered man to reproduce and enabled them to do so. He said “fill the earth” so we can. See Genesis.

God is the primary/first antecedent (one that precedes another) of all things (He created heaven and earth and without Him what exists now would not be). These verses show God to be the First Cause (law of causality) of all things and necessary cause of what we do.

Long time ago although He DOES NOT SAY THAT OF HIMSELF and made laws so it could run without Him constantly tinkering with it. See Genesis

I wish you would use more scripture to validate statements.

You hardly have any this time.

When one considers man's point of view exclusively and ignores biblical truth I admit I have no case....that man is free from God to do whatever he wants.

That’s not how the world is Biblical or not. Man is free as the Bible says and we all know. We all praise or criticize people for their decisions. Even the Calvinists in power here rebuke etc those they seem to have violated the ToS. Suddenly God is NOT foreordaining their posts in those moments.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Ah, so you say "God worked on the bad habit". What? not your free will ?.... gotcha .... (had to take cheap shot when I saw a vulnerable moment ... just teasing

No problem. He convicted me of sin and required I ask forgiveness. After a time asking forgiveness was worse than the pleasure of the cutting remarks so I quit. It was too painful and not worth it. He didn’t reach in and change me. I had free choice all the time.

RE: I have seen prayers answered including praying for a lame woman who got up and walked. (It was not in the first world and no crowd was watching. It was for her, not show. But it was really my partner who had the faith and power for the hour. I was just a woman of paste and flour.

Wow, I could use that 'booster shot' to increase my faith. Nice.
... hmmm.... Forum software not working on REPLY button so I couldn't copy properly.

No problem. Boosted my faith as you can imagine. So my evidence for Him being there and being all He said He is has become quite strong based on the evidence.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I said:
Agreed, Calvinism says what the bible says.
Premise 1: Calvin said God is love
Premise 2: God said He is love
Premise 3: Jethro says Calvin theology is empty theology
Conclusion: Jethro thinks "God is love" is empty theology

I am here too. You are playing with the big boys now. Premise 3 has nothing to do with the first two premises. Nothing at all. Your logic does not follow. What if Jethro said:
premise 1: non-calvinists say God is love
premise 2: God said He is love
premise 3: Calvinists say that other theology is empty.
Conclusion: Calvinists think God is love is empty theology.

LOL at "playing with the big boys now".
Premises do not to relate to each other. They have to relate to the conclusion as conclusions draw on premises.
OH CRAP, I just reread what I wrote. I didn't form the syllogism as I intended ... nevermind ... YOUR RIGHT ... ooops .. my bad.

The request for scripture on your part is a kind of hiding the obvious problems with your theology.

Scripture is authoritative and the ultimate source of truth so my request is for you to present the 'ultimate source of truth' to prove you points.

That is, Calvinism relies on texts isolated from context and blacks out the obvious conclusions from the multiple texts.

Ah, this is not true. Admittedly, this is a vulnerability of all bible study of all denominations (see The Hermeneutical Spiral theory). In point of fact, Calvinists emphasize Systematic Theology which is the study of all biblical references on a topic and the bringing of these facts into a cohesive, non conflicting statements of understanding. As evidence of this read their creeds and catechisms. I grant man is fallible and these documents are fallible.
But prove to me your statement is correct. What documentation has been created by non-reformed denominations that organizes bible scripture by topic.
Yes, citing individual verses can be abused and misleading. Citing NO VERSES is far less creditable.

You insist on scripture saying things that do not need to be addressed and since it is not (being obvious) you insist it is not there. Now this is done selectively. No Bible tells a man to drink water. It does not tell a man to eat and sleep. Why not? Because it does not need to do so . No Bible tells a man that he will reap what he sows..oh wait, it does!! You see, it assumes that we, not God, will receive the results of our free choices.

I grant that the bible does not speak of ALL things. But to rarely have scripture to back up theories as opposed to scripture that refutes your theories suggests a great vulnerability. (Aside: I am speaking in generalities)
When I comes to judgment of what is truth one relies on evidence. The bible is strong evidence of 'this' or 'that', lack of biblical evidence is weak evidence of 'this' or 'that'. The topics we are speaking about have biblical references, at least for my side of the argument IMO. The lack of evidence for your side of the same topic indicates weakness and possibly error IMO.

I am beginning to suspect that this insistence on exact wording or you won't believe it is because that is how the theology gets its points. The meaning of the writings is ignored and the exact wording is extracted. Our Bible says God does not even tempt man to sin and yet the Calvinist says God is behind/bringing about/author of/whatever other words suit sin which is in direct opposition.

Ah, "the bible says God does not tempt man to sin". Now, that is a good verse for your side. Put it out there.
Aside1: I struggled with that verse myself ... I had an answer I think... I would have to ponder it again...
Aside2: consider Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil..... seems like a contradiction ... LOL.
Aside3: (hmmm.... seems you just posted that Reformed theology takes individual verses out of content to make a point and that is a fault .... you possibly doing the same thing? ....smiles, just saying another aspect to think about
Time for lunch per the predetermined will of God ... or is it my free will ... hmmmm ?? If it taste lousy, probably the former.