In John 5:25-29 Jesus confirmed the dead will have a chance to obey His voice while still in the grave

[Hopeful]

The bodies of the dead are in the grave. The souls of the dead go to immediate judgement and thence to heaven or hell.

Scripture, please.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Vatican II changed nothing in that respect. and you provide no evidence that it did.

In the 1940s there was a group led by a Fr. Feeney who taught a very literal version of "outside the Church, there is no salvation." to exclude anyone that was not a member of the Catholic Church.

This view was condemned by the "Holy Office" and that condemnation was approved by the Pope in 1949, well before Vatican II.
One of the points they made was that "this dogma ["outside the Church, there is no salvation"] must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it".

And later "Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing."

And
These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, <On the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ> (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire.

Discussing the members of which the Mystical Body is-composed here on earth, the same august Pontiff says: "Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.

Letter to the Archbishop of Boston | EWTN

EWTN is a global, Catholic Television, Catholic Radio, and Catholic News Network that provides catholic programming and news coverage from around the world.

www.ewtn.com

The following is a quote from a catholic on another forum regarding this.
I've said all along that membership in a Church is not a requirement for salvation. Let's focus here on just people to whom are not invincibly ignorant, which is basically almost everybody.

* If a person is never baptized, then they cannot in truth hope to be saved. They are "outside the Church". They are not infallibly damned either, but they have no hope to be saved according to the revelation we have received from God.

* If a person is baptized, they are no longer "outside the Church". If they die before committing a mortal sin, they will be saved. It doesn't matter if they call themselves Catholic or not.

* If a person is baptized, and then commits a mortal sin, they are then "outside the Church". If they do not repent of that mortal sin before they die, then they have no hope to be saved according to any revelation we have received from God.

* If a person is baptized, and whenever they commit a mortal sin, repent, so that at the end of their life they have repented from all mortal sins, then they are not "outside the Church", and they will be saved.

That is the bare minimum one needs to know about "Outside the Church there is no Salvation".

It doesn't mean:
* That someone who doesn't call themselves Catholic will be lost.
* That someone who calls themselves Catholic will be saved.

I began conceding the doctrine of "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" has been redefined by Vatican II.

Modern redefinition doesn't change the historical fact it was literally believed in the past or that precise wording wouldn't exist. Latin is a very precise language.

In the first few centuries, Christianity set the earth on fire. The apostles proclaimed good news, that Christ is risen proving He is the way to eternal life.

It was very successful.

And its evident from the words of Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215)----Learned Christian teacher at Alexandria, Egypt, who was in charge of the catechetical school there:

They didn't preach extra Ecclesiam nulla salus

Clement argues God’s mercy to the dead parallels what is shown the living.

CHAP. VI.—THE GOSPEL WAS PREACHED TO JEWS AND GENTILES IN HADES.2
But as the proclamation [of the Gospel] has come now at the fit time, so also at the fit time were the Law and the Prophets given to the Barbarians, and Philosophy to the Greeks, to fit their ears for the Gospel. “Therefore,” says the Lord who delivered Israel, “in an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee. And I have given thee for a Covenant to the nations; that thou mightiest inhabit the earth, and receive the inheritance of the wilderness; saying to those that are in bonds, Come forth; and to those that are in darkness, Show yourselves.” For if the “prisoners” are the Jews, of whom the Lord said, “Come forth, ye that will, from your bonds,”—meaning the voluntary bound, and who have taken on them “the burdens grievous to be borne”3 by human injunction—it is plain that “those in darkness” are they who have the ruling faculty of the soul buried in idolatry.

For to those who were righteous according to the law, faith was wanting. Wherefore also the Lord, in healing them, said, “Thy faith hath saved thee.”4 But to those that were righteous according to philosophy, not only faith in the Lord, but also the abandonment of idolatry, were necessary. Straightway, on the revelation of the truth, they also repented of their previous conduct.

Wherefore the Lord preached the Gospel to those in Hades. Accordingly the Scripture says, “Hades says to Destruction. We have not seen His form, but we have heard His voice.”5 It is not plainly the place, which, the words above say, heard the voice, but those who have been put in Hades, and have abandoned themselves to destruction, as persons who have thrown themselves voluntarily from a ship into the sea. They, then, are those that hear the divine power and voice. For who in his senses can suppose the souls of the righteous and those of sinners in the same condemnation, charging Providence with injustice?-Clement of Alexandria. (1885). The Stromata, or Miscellanies. In A. Roberts, J. Donaldson, & A. C. Coxe (Eds.), Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) (Vol. 2, p. 490). Christian Literature Company.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I know very well what circular reasoning is but you have not at all shown that to be the case. And it isn't the case; there is nothing circular in what I have stated. If there is any circular reasoning, it is on your part, as you are reading an idea into Heb 9:27-28 that isn't there and then using it to conclude that it proves your position, at least from what I can make out of what you said.


This explanation doesn't explain anything. People are currently dead and the judgement is yet to come--all the people currently dead have died once, then will come the general resurrection where they will face judgement. That is the chronology I gave and it is the chronology given in Hen 9:27-28 and Rev 20:11-15. That people will no longer die after the GWT judgement goes without saying and is not relevant to Heb 9:27-28.

Again, there is no verse in the Bible that even implies there is a second chance after death--we die once and then we are raised to face judgement at Christ's return.

Explain this: Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Judgment Day is to deal with sin, yet its said Christ would not "deal with sin".

And where in Rev. 20:11-15 did Christ appear "a second time."

Otherwise, I can't understand your idea.

 

[Free]

Explain this: Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Judgment Day is to deal with sin, yet its said Christ would not "deal with sin".

The Day of Judgement isn't to deal with sin, it's to see whose names are and are not written in the book of life. Look at the context. "Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many" is when he dealt with sin, hence why when he returns, he will not die again "to deal with sin." Sin was dealt with on the cross. That is what is meant by his second appearing is "not to deal with sin." He returns to bring final judgement.

And where in Rev. 20:11-15 did Christ appear "a second time."

Otherwise, I can't understand your idea.

Revelation 19 is the second time he returns. He will return and everyone will face judgement. Those who have been justified, whose names are written in the book of life, and "are eagerly waiting for him," will have their salvation completed, being ushered into God's presence. Those who aren't justified, whose names aren't in the book of life, will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Everyone who dies up until the point of Christ's return, die once. Then they are raised and face judgement along with those who are alive at his return. There is no second chance once dead.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Not everything a Pope says is an infallible statement.

According to my sources there are only 3 De Fides statements by Popes or Councils on this matter, and none of those you quote are among them.

I'll concede the point with an observation.

Anyone Disputing it back then would not advance far in the church.

No one had to claim it was an infallible judgment for it to be believed by all hearing it. That would still affect evangelization. Its indisputable the effectiveness of evangelization decreased with the passage of time. Eventually, growth of the faith became a function of child bearing. Or coercion.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The Day of Judgement isn't to deal with sin, it's to see whose names are and are not written in the book of life. Look at the context. "Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many" is when he dealt with sin, hence why when he returns, he will not die again "to deal with sin." Sin was dealt with on the cross. That is what is meant by his second appearing is "not to deal with sin." He returns to bring final judgement.


Revelation 19 is the second time he returns. He will return and everyone will face judgement. Those who have been justified, whose names are written in the book of life, and "are eagerly waiting for him," will have their salvation completed, being ushered into God's presence. Those who aren't justified, whose names aren't in the book of life, will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Everyone who dies up until the point of Christ's return, die once. Then they are raised and face judgement along with those who are alive at his return. There is no second chance once dead.

I'll concede that one point, the language allows your interpretation.

But you failed to conclusively identify the Great White Throne Judgment as Christ's second appearing.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear (3700 ὀπτάνομαι optanomai) a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:28 NKJ)

3700 ὀπτάνομαι optanomai
Meaning: 1) to look at, behold 2) to allow one's self to be seen, to appear.-Strong's


"For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming (3952 παρουσία Parousia) of the Son of Man be. (Matt. 24:27 NKJ)

3952 παρουσία parousia
Meaning: 1) presence 2) the coming, arrival, advent 2a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God.-Strong's


Then He appears in Jerusalem with His Holy Angels:

"When the Son of Man comes (2064 ἔρχομαι erchomai) in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. (Matt. 25:31 NKJ)

2064 ἔρχομαι erchomai
Meaning: 1) to come 1a) of persons 1a1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving 1a2) to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public. - Strong's

Seems impossible not to count these appearances, especially when the phrase "second coming" is so well known to Christians of every century.

The apostle wrote Hebrews to Christians, to teach them. Its expected he would use well known phrases, consistent with everyone's understanding.

I challenge you to find one Christian (who isn't taking sides in our dispute), who will say "Oh, the second appearance of Christ is at the Great White Throne Judgment!"

You also ignore His appearance during the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.

Until you can find scripture declaring Christ's appearance in the Great White Throne is His "second appearance", your theory violates sound hermeneutics.

 

[Free]

I'll concede that one point, the language allows your interpretation.

But you failed to conclusively identify the Great White Throne Judgment as Christ's second appearing.

No, it's Rev 19.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear (3700 ὀπτάνομαι optanomai) a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:28 NKJ)

3700 ὀπτάνομαι optanomai
Meaning: 1) to look at, behold 2) to allow one's self to be seen, to appear.-Strong's


"For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
(Matt. 24:27 NKJ)

Context:

Mat 24:25 See, I have told you beforehand.
Mat 24:26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Mat 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (ESV)

This is speaking of the very same events as Heb 9:28.

Then He appears in Jerusalem with His Holy Angels:

"When the Son of Man comes (2064 ἔρχομαι erchomai) in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. (Matt. 25:31 NKJ)

Context:

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
...
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (ESV)

This is clearly speaking of the final judgement, which supports what I've stated.

2064 ἔρχομαι erchomai
Meaning: 1) to come 1a) of persons 1a1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving 1a2) to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public. - Strong's

Seems impossible to identify Christ's appearance a second time, ignoring not only the above appearances but also His appearance during the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.

AND until you can, Christ's appearance in the Great White Throne can hardly be called His "second appearance", especially by the apostles who were eagerly waiting for His second coming or "appearance."

Those are all eschatological and speaking other same appearance--Christ's second coming. Even if one wants to argue that Rev 19 isn't his second appearance, that it's his "nth" appearance, it doesn't change the fact that all three passages are speaking of the same events.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No, it's Rev 19.


Context:

Mat 24:25 See, I have told you beforehand.
Mat 24:26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Mat 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (ESV)

This is speaking of the very same events as Heb 9:28.


Context:

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
...
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (ESV)

This is clearly speaking of the final judgement, which supports what I've stated.


Those are all eschatological and speaking other same appearance--Christ's second coming. Even if one wants to argue that Rev 19 isn't his second appearance, that it's his "nth" appearance, it doesn't change the fact that all three passages are speaking of the same events.

You replied before I was finished. Delete this and respond to the full version please.

Take your time, I got work to do. Will return tomorrow.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Jesus said the dead will hear His voice and all who "hear" (=obey) would live. Life or death are determined by the response to His voice. Jesus' point throughout this context is the Father has authorized the Son to judge and give life to all who obey His voice just like the Father. Just as with the Father, the dead (physically alive or not) are judged by their obedience to Christ's voice:

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς) of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς),
29 And shall come forth; they that have done (ποιήσαντες aorist participle) good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done (πράξαντες aorist participle) evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:25-29 KJV)


In John 5:29 the KJV translated the aorist participles as "have done", but context requires "did":

A Correction:

Until now I believed the repentant dead in Hades rise during the Great White Throne Judgment when Hades is emptied out (Rev. 20:11-15). However, I now favor they rise with the church at Christ's second appearing. I resisted this "nagging possibility" until now, resisting the prompting of the Holy Spirit because of unwarranted weight I gave to Revelation 20:13, which actually begs the question completely.

Not so Hebrews 9:28 , it identifies when Christ's salvation comes with precision---at His second "appearing" (3700 ὀπτάνομαι optanomai) when He is seen, at His second coming (3952 παρουσία Parousia) as visible as lightning (Mt. 24:27). No Christian, ancient or modern would interpret "second appearing" as anything other than Christ's second coming, "the day of Christ", at the last trump when the dead in Christ rise first (1 Thess. 4:13-18).

 

[Alfred Persson]

A Correction:

Until now I believed the repentant dead in Hades rise during the Great White Throne Judgment when Hades is emptied out (Rev. 20:11-15). However, I now favor they rise with the church at Christ's second appearing. I resisted this "nagging possibility" until now, resisting the prompting of the Holy Spirit because of unwarranted weight I gave to Revelation 20:13, which actually begs the question completely.

Not so Hebrews 9:28 , it identifies when Christ's salvation comes with precision---at His second "appearing" (3700 ὀπτάνομαι optanomai) when He is seen, at His second coming (3952 παρουσία Parousia) as visible as lightning (Mt. 24:27). No Christian, ancient or modern would interpret "second appearing" as anything other than Christ's second coming, "the day of Christ", at the last trump when the dead in Christ rise first (1 Thess. 4:13-18).

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-17 NKJ)

 

[Mungo]

I began conceding the doctrine of "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" has been redefined by Vatican II.

Modern redefinition doesn't change the historical fact it was literally believed in the past or that precise wording wouldn't exist. Latin is a very precise language.

Once again you make a claim with no evidence.
Vatican II did not change or redefine the doctrine, unless you meant re-define in the sense of restating an already defined doctrine.

Modern redefinition doesn't change the historical fact it was literally believed in the past or that precise wording wouldn't exist. Latin is a very precise language.

Again more claims without evidence.

 

[Mungo]

I'll concede the point with an observation.

Conceding with an observation that nullifies the concession.

Anyone Disputing it back then would not advance far in the church.

No one had to claim it was an infallible judgment for it to be believed by all hearing it. That would still affect evangelization. Its indisputable the effectiveness of evangelization decreased with the passage of time. Eventually, growth of the faith became a function of child bearing. Or coercion.

More claims without evidence,

 

[Alfred Persson]

Once again you make a claim with no evidence.
Vatican II did not change or redefine the doctrine, unless you meant re-define in the sense of restating an already defined doctrine.


Again more claims without evidence.

If a clear and precise statement in Latin isn't proof, what is?

Your objection is odd. They didn't know what they believed, so they misstated their belief?

It required 1700+ years for Vatican II to let them know what they believed?

If that is so, why do we believe anything Catholics say? According to you, they speak without meaning what they say.

When will the Magisterium's scholars and doctors of the faith learn to express themselves in Latin?

 

[Highway54]

The bodies of the dead are in the grave. The souls of the dead go to immediate judgement and thence to heaven or hell.

What is the "first resurrection" Mungo Rev 20:6? Did it take place before it was written in the Bible, or was it to occur after?

 

[Highway54]

You haven't explained how Christ can say the Dead are conscious, able to hear "the voice" of the Son of God (who has the keys to hades), and all who "did good" shall come out to the resurrection of life, if the souls of the dead died when the body died

the dead shall hear the voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς) of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The Society, although claiming to believe the Bible, doesn't believe what is plainly written in it.

That's why I left them.

It is explained by your understanding Alfred. Jesus told Lazarus to come on out, and that is what he did. The Bible states very clearly the dead are not conscious of anything, and I believe it sir, it does not contradict itself, if it does, what hope do we have?

 

[Alfred Persson]

It is explained by your understanding Alfred. Jesus told Lazarus to come on out, and that is what he did. The Bible states very clearly the dead are not conscious of anything, and I believe it sir, it does not contradict itself, if it does, what hope do we have?

That's the point. If Lazarus wasn't conscious, he couldn't hear Christ.

By the way, many Christians like myself believe----if Christ didn't single Lazarus out, then all the dead would have been resurrected.

But that is beside the point. If Lazarus' soul died when his body died, then he couldn't have heard Jesus' voice.

 

[Mungo]

If a clear and precise statement in Latin isn't proof, what is?

Proof of what?
It's not proof that Vatican II changed anything.

Your objection is odd. They didn't know what they believed, so they misstated their belief?

What are you referring to?
Who was mistaken in what belief?

It required 1700+ years for Vatican II to let them know what they believed?

You have yet to prove that any belief changed.
You keep claiming it did but you provide no evidence.

If that is so, why do we believe anything Catholics say? According to you, they speak without meaning what they say.

They mean what they say but not what your would like to interpret them as saying.
For example you interpret "outside the Church, there is no salvation" as saying "outside the Catholic Church, there is no salvation". But it doesn't say that.

Pius IX’s encyclical, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (1863), states, "There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."

When will the Magisterium's scholars and doctors of the faith learn to express themselves in Latin?

They do express themselves in Latin.

 

[Mungo]

What is the "first resurrection" Mungo Rev 20:6? Did it take place before it was written in the Bible, or was it to occur after?

What has that to do with what I said?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Proof of what?
It's not proof that Vatican II changed anything.



What are you referring to?
Who was mistaken in what belief?



You have yet to prove that any belief changed.
You keep claiming it did but you provide no evidence.


They mean what they say but not what your would like to interpret them as saying.
For example you interpret "outside the Church, there is no salvation" as saying "outside the Catholic Church, there is no salvation". But it doesn't say that.

Pius IX’s encyclical, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (1863), states, "There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."



They do express themselves in Latin.

Your own words made my point.

They mean what they say but not what your would like to interpret them as saying.
For example you interpret "outside the Church, there is no salvation" as saying "outside the Catholic Church, there is no salvation". But it doesn't say that.

As if its the responsibility of non-Catholics to see such sophistry.

Produce one catholic divine in the early centuries who referenced a "non-Catholic Church as "the church".

Just one saying "outside the church there is no salvation" but talking about something other than the Catholic Church.

To quote you "you provide no evidence."

Also:

If we can't take plain, clear statements as proof of belief, there is no proof possible in a legal historical sense.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No, it's Rev 19.


Context:

Mat 24:25 See, I have told you beforehand.
Mat 24:26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Mat 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (ESV)

This is speaking of the very same events as Heb 9:28.


Context:

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
...
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (ESV)

This is clearly speaking of the final judgement, which supports what I've stated.


Those are all eschatological and speaking other same appearance--Christ's second coming. Even if one wants to argue that Rev 19 isn't his second appearance, that it's his "nth" appearance, it doesn't change the fact that all three passages are speaking of the same events.

Revelation 19:1-8?

That is being "careless with scripture", citing the judgment of the Sheep and Goats (people who have not died once and are alive when Christ enters Jerusalem), as being the same Judgment in Hebrews 9:28.

And Revelation 19 is a scene in heaven, not Christ's second coming and the rest of the chapter describes events at Armageddon, not a Trial-Judgment:

19:1 After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God!
2 "For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her."
3 Again they said, "Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!"
4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, "Amen! Alleluia!"
5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, "Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!"
6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns!
7 "Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."
8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9 Then he said to me, "Write:`Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!'" And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God." (Rev. 19:1-9 NKJ)