In John 5:25-29 Jesus confirmed the dead will have a chance to obey His voice while still in the grave

[brightfame52]

Curious if you can argue a point.

My argument is well reasoned, backed by scripture.

I don't believe you can do more than call it garbage.

Try proving me wrong, do more than smear.

If you reject this challenge, and continue to smear. I will cite the TOS and report smear to the "man".

It's garbage, nothing about being raised and given a chance to obey.

 

[Alfred Persson]

It's garbage, nothing about being raised and given a chance to obey.

Not garbage, and you got it wrong.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς),
29 And shall come forth; they that have done (ποιήσαντες aorist participle) good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done (πράξαντες aorist participle) evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:25-29 KJV)

Life or death are determined by the response subsequent to hearing the voice, not by deeds done before the voice is heard. All the "spiritually dead" hear the same voice regardless whether alive or physically dead and those who obey will live. Therefore, the translation of the aorist participles in John 5:29 as "have done" is inaccurate, the context requires the translation "did":

Many commentators minimize the subsequent (following) use of the aorist participle. Even such scholars as Robertson and Moulton, who recognize that the participle is not time-bound, resist this category of usage. But there are a number of examples in biblical and extra-biblical Greek where an aorist participle is used to refer to an action occurring after the action of the main verb. In virtually all of these examples, the aorist participle is placed after the main verb in syntactical order.-Porter, S. E. (1999). Idioms of the Greek New Testament (p. 189). JSOT.

 

[Hopeful]

Not garbage, and you got it wrong.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς),
29 And shall come forth; they that have done (ποιήσαντες aorist participle) good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done (πράξαντες aorist participle) evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:25-29 KJV)

Life or death are determined by the response subsequent to hearing the voice, not by deeds done before the voice is heard. All the "spiritually dead" hear the same voice regardless whether alive or physically dead and those who obey will live. Therefore, the translation of the aorist participles in John 5:29 as "have done" is inaccurate, the context requires the translation "did":

Many commentators minimize the subsequent (following) use of the aorist participle. Even such scholars as Robertson and Moulton, who recognize that the participle is not time-bound, resist this category of usage. But there are a number of examples in biblical and extra-biblical Greek where an aorist participle is used to refer to an action occurring after the action of the main verb. In virtually all of these examples, the aorist participle is placed after the main verb in syntactical order.-Porter, S. E. (1999). Idioms of the Greek New Testament (p. 189). JSOT.

God isn't giving folks one more chance when they "hear His voice".
The dead made their choice while still living.

 

[Alfred Persson]

God isn't giving folks one more chance when they "hear His voice".
The dead made their choice while still living.

Christ didn't say that. He said those in the grave hear His voice, and those who did good come out to life, those who did bad to condemnation. His point in context was He had authority to kill or make alive, just like the Father.

But you ignore all that. He did say "do not marvel", but you can't help yourself.

 

[Hopeful]

Christ didn't say that. He said those in the grave hear His voice, and those who did good come out to life, those who did bad to condemnation. His point in context was He had authority to kill or make alive, just like the Father.

But you ignore all that. He did say "do not marvel", but you can't help yourself.

The dead will hear His voice, and will be raised from the dead either to eternal live or to damnation.
Is that different from what you posted?

 

[Alfred Persson]

The dead will hear His voice, and will be raised from the dead either to eternal live or to damnation.
Is that different from what you posted?

I haven't changed what I said. What you are ignoring is the context. Its not about the last judgment, its about Christ's authority from the Father, to judge all who obey or disobey His voice:

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
20 "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 518-:29 NKJ)

Christ isn't saying all who done good while alive He will forgive, He is saying all who Obey His Voice will live, that is the point, HE IS EQUAL TO THE FATHER.

 

[Hopeful]

I haven't changed what I said. What you are ignoring is the context. Its not about the last judgment, its about Christ's authority from the Father, to judge all who obey or disobey His voice:

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
20 "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice (Jn. 5:18-28 NKJ)

I thought we were in agreement?

The dead will hear nothing till the day of judgement.
Paul writes of that day in 1 Cor 15:52..."In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
That is the fate of the obedient.
The disobedient will be raised to condemnation.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I thought we were in agreement?

The dead will hear nothing till the day of judgement.
Paul writes of that day in 1 Cor 15:52..."In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
That is the fate of the obedient.
The disobedient will be raised to condemnation.

No, we aren't. That's the rapture, when the living are supernaturally given resurrection bodies like Christ's, and so are the dead just before the living.

Christ brings these dead souls with Him at His coming, and then their bodies are raised up, changed in a twinkling of an eye, and their souls are reunited to those bodies:

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:13-17 NKJ)

"Sleep" is idiom for "dead" because a dead body appears to be sleeping. Whether it also reflects the state of their awareness is debatable. I believe they aren't conscious of the time as much as we, in the timeless 3rd heaven or paradise where they wait for their resurrection. But who knows.

 

[Mungo]

I thought you'd appreciate that. Welcome to the 22nd century!

Hi 22nd century

I concede we both scored. You gave it an impressive attempt, but of course I did win!

You do have a good sense of humour.

 

[brightfame52]

Not garbage, and you got it wrong.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς),
29 And shall come forth; they that have done (ποιήσαντες aorist participle) good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done (πράξαντες aorist participle) evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:25-29 KJV)

Life or death are determined by the response subsequent to hearing the voice, not by deeds done before the voice is heard. All the "spiritually dead" hear the same voice regardless whether alive or physically dead and those who obey will live. Therefore, the translation of the aorist participles in John 5:29 as "have done" is inaccurate, the context requires the translation "did":

Many commentators minimize the subsequent (following) use of the aorist participle. Even such scholars as Robertson and Moulton, who recognize that the participle is not time-bound, resist this category of usage. But there are a number of examples in biblical and extra-biblical Greek where an aorist participle is used to refer to an action occurring after the action of the main verb. In virtually all of these examples, the aorist participle is placed after the main verb in syntactical order.-Porter, S. E. (1999). Idioms of the Greek New Testament (p. 189). JSOT.

You are so deceived, seeing things that are not there and then want to argue about them. See you at the Judgment friend

 

[Alfred Persson]

You are so deceived, seeing things that are not there and then want to argue about them. See you at the Judgment friend

This is apologetics, not Twitter. You are in the wrong forum.

Its obvious you lack the skills to make a reasoned argument. On Twitter you would shine, be among like minded folk.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is pofitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-4:1 NKJ)

 

[Highway54]

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4 NKJ)

Your word study fails to explain why, in a "prose report" of his vision, John speaks of "the souls of those who had been beheaded."

If souls died when the body died, it would be a false vision John sees, teaching falsehood about souls. Same here:

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
(Rev. 6:9-11 NKJ)

If God's revelation utilizes lies to teach truth, all hope is lost. We are dammed for sure. No way to distinguish lies from truth.

Therefore, souls do NOT die when the body dies. Scripture reveals they continue to exist.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-17 NKJ)

Are you unaware that those are the very ones verse 6 is referring to sir? We of course disagree Alfred, as you admitted. I side with God who stated sin brings forth death sir, and I agree with His explanation that the dead know nothing.

 

[Hopeful]

No, we aren't. That's the rapture, when the living are supernaturally given resurrection bodies like Christ's, and so are the dead just before the living.

Christ brings these dead souls with Him at His coming, and then their bodies are raised up, changed in a twinkling of an eye, and their souls are reunited to those bodies:

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:13-17 NKJ)

"Sleep" is idiom for "dead" because a dead body appears to be sleeping. Whether it also reflects the state of their awareness is debatable. I believe they aren't conscious of the time as much as we, in the timeless 3rd heaven or paradise where they wait for their resurrection. But who knows.

That is all fine for those who will be raised to eternal life, but what of those who will be raised to condemnation?
They will hear the Lord's voice too, but their fate will be far different than the faithful's.

 

[Hopeful]

Life or death are determined by the response subsequent to hearing the voice, not by deeds done before the voice is heard.

That is wrong.
Our life-style, not just the first minute after resurrection, determines our eternity, .
Your doctrine accommodates a sinful life.

 

[Hopeful]

Christ didn't say that. He said those in the grave hear His voice, and those who did good come out to life, those who did bad to condemnation. His point in context was He had authority to kill or make alive, just like the Father.

When did they do good or bad?
Within the minute after they heard Jesus' voice?
No, but in their life prior to their burial.

 

[Alfred Persson]

That is all fine for those who will be raised to eternal life, but what of those who will be raised to condemnation?
They will hear the Lord's voice too, but their fate will be far different than the faithful's.

They are dammed because they are evil. Punishment is eternal, there is no return to life once one has "died the second death", no rising from the second death:

They are dead, they will not live; They are deceased, they will not rise. Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And made all their memory to perish. (Isa. 26:14 NKJ)

But it does not follow all who are eternally punished are eternally tormented. Some are destroyed, exterminated and no longer exist, others vanish after a time of torment.

And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. (Rev. 20:12 NKJ)

Only those guilty of eternal sins are tormented eternally:

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:10 NKJ)

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev. 14:9-11 NKJ)

Does the Lake of Fire Symbolize Eternal Torment? | End Time News

Does the Lake of Fire Symbolize Eternal Torment for all cast into it? When “Death and Hades” are cast into the lake of fire” they are destroyed (1 Cor. 15:26), but the Devil, Beast and False Prophet receive eternal torment (Rev. 20:10). These different fates require the symbolism of a consuming...

endtimenews.net

 

[Alfred Persson]

That is wrong.
Our life-style, not just the first minute after resurrection, determines our eternity, .
Your doctrine accommodates a sinful life.

Just as we are saved by grace through faith in Christ and not because of our life style before we believed, so are the dead who become believers in Hell.

But those who refused to repent and continue in their evil will rise to a resurrection of condemnation, and their eternal punishment is set according to their deeds. Only those guilty of eternal sin are tormented eternally.

My doctrine is the gospel of Christ is true for everyone born since the foundation of the world. Everyone who ever lived, except those guilty of eternal sin, can repent and be saved in "the world to come"

31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:31-32 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

When did they do good or bad?
Within the minute after they heard Jesus' voice?
No, but in their life prior to their burial.

Christ did say "do not marvel" the Father has committed all authority to kill and make alive, and He will do that based upon whether people "listen" to His voice or not:

21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:21-29 NKJ)

When the Pharisees objected that Christ's teaching implied He was equal with God, HE DID NOT DENY IT.

16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. (Jn. 5:16-18 NKJ)

HE PROVED IT, saying His voice "kills and makes alive all who obey it just like the Father", whatever He sees the Father do, He can do in the Father:

19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
20 "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. (Jn. 5:19-23 NKJ)


That is the context. The Pharisees objected Christ made Himself equal to God, and Jesus saying "that's right, I am."

Its not about the wicked being punished for sins, its about God killing and making alive whoever He wants to. He will have mercy on whomever He chooses to have mercy, and Here Jesus says all the dead "who hear will live"

25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, (Jn. 5:25-26 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Are you unaware that those are the very ones verse 6 is referring to sir? We of course disagree Alfred, as you admitted. I side with God who stated sin brings forth death sir, and I agree with His explanation that the dead know nothing.

No, you side with those who define death differently than the Bible. Adam and Eve died the very instant they ate of the tree, spiritually. Then their "eyes were opened" and they became ashamed of their sin:

So "death" is separation from the presence of God:

6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. (Gen. 3:6-8 NKJ)

Death is not non-existence, its separation from life.

Eternal life exists only in God and all separated from Him are dead, even if they are physically alive:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, (Jn. 5:24-26 NKJ)

 

[Free]

Please keep the discussion civil and avoid violating the ToS as some of you have done. If you cannot respond nicely, then it's best to say nothing.