In Paradise When?

[Doulos Iesou]

Introduction:

There is a text in Luke 23:43, where Jesus seems to be (according to the English translation) saying to the thief that he will be in "paradise" with Jesus, today, the very same day as Jesus was speaking.

Now, what I have been thinking lately is what in the Greek inspired this translation, with the adverb σήμερον (Today) either modifying the verb λέγω (I say) or ἔσῃ (will be).

I will merely be making observations from Luke's other uses of these words, and especially his quoting of Jesus using terminology like this to find out which would be a more likely rendering.

Today Modifies What?

And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." Luke 4:21(NASB)

In this instance, we see that the same Greek adverb σήμερον modifies the verb πεπλήρωται (Is Fulfilled) but the English translation is a little deceiving and doesn't draw us in on the difference.

Here, Jesus uses the word ὅτι (that) before he says today, so an extra literal translation would read "And he began to say to them THAT, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."

Here we see that the conjunction ὅτι (that) is employed before the word σήμερον (today) in order to specify it's application to πεπλήρωται (Is Fulfilled), rather than λέγειν (to say).

And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham. Luke 19:9(NASB)

Again we have this text come up again, but again we see something missing from the English translation that is indeed present in the Greek.

The conjunction ὅτι (that) again precedes σήμερον (today) which is the second time, we have found this to be the case stylistically. The EXTRA literal translation would read thus: "And Jesus said to him THAT, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham."

And He said, "I say to you, Peter, the rooster will not crow today until you have denied three times that you know Me." Luke 22:34

This is a general example of several other instances where when the adverb σήμερον (today) does not have the conjunction ὅτι (that) preceding it, it rather modifies the verb directly preceding it. As the Greek has verb φωνήσει (will crow) directly preceding the adverb. This is a general pattern throughout Luke.

And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:43(NASB)

In this verse there is no conjunction ὅτι (that) to modify the verb σήμερον (today), but actually we can observe that the verb directly preceding is λέγω (I say). Which this would lend to the pattern we have previously observed, even in the previous chapter that the adverb will modify the directly previous verb unless the conjunction ὅτι is present.

Conclusion:

I believe that based on the stylistic patterns that we have seen from Luke's gospel and his rendering of Jesus speech, it would be highly unlikely for the adverb σήμερον to modify ἔσῃ (will be) in Luke 23:43.

The verse I believe should rather be translated thus: "and He said to him, "Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise."

Now please understand, that I am not completely sold on the idea that there is no intermediate state for the righteous (I'm convinced there is none for the wicked), but I have heard this text consistently used to defend the position that we go immediately to "paradise" when we die, just like the Thief.

In my opinion, based on the observations that I have made, I find it highly improbable stylistically for the traditional translation. Rather, I believe one would have to read their own theology into the text and ignore all previous modes of interpretation and translation in order to render this passage in such a way.

While it doesn't seal the deal for me.. it certainly casts doubt.

Tell me what you think!

Blessings,
Servant of Jesus

 

[John 8:32]

Well, if the thief was truly in paradise that day, He beat Christ there by three days and three nights. So Christ is really not the firstborn among many brethren...

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

This validates all the other N.T. scriptures that say that we are dead and in our graves until the resurrection at the return of Christ...

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So when Paul said...

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

He was including Enoch (Heb 11:5), Elijah and all the others in the Hall of Fame as well as the rest of us which does include the thief.

"Look, I am telling you today, you will be with me in paradise." The commas were added much later than the original recording of the manuscripts and were not part of what we call the inspired text. The translators got this one wrong.

 

[gr8grace]

If it was as you say, "today or this day" would be redundant. "I say"is in the present tense in the Greek, using "today" as you say, would remove the natural force and the Truth that He was telling the Thief.(and us)

Let me explain, the thief was not quite "right" in all he said in verse 42. He said,"when you come IN your Kingdom." (verse 42 is where I believe the modern translators messed up.)

Jesus started verse 43 with a "truly,Amen" because He was going to reveal that the thief was thinking wrong about Jesus coming IN His Kingdom. The thief still believed that Jesus was coming to set UP His Kingdom at that time.

So Jesus starts this verse out with "truly" because he was revealing to the thief that the thief would be WITH Him, that very day in Paradise, A truth that would have been a shock and the ultimate blessing for the thief.

So I believe that the modern translators got this one pretty close to right.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Well, if the thief was truly in paradise that day, He beat Christ there by three days and three nights. So Christ is really not the firstborn among many brethren...

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

This validates all the other N.T. scriptures that say that we are dead and in our graves until the resurrection at the return of Christ...

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So when Paul said...

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

He was including Enoch (Heb 11:5), Elijah and all the others in the Hall of Fame as well as the rest of us which does include the thief.

"Look, I am telling you today, you will be with me in paradise." The commas were added much later than the original recording of the manuscripts and were not part of what we call the inspired text. The translators got this one wrong.

Hi John 8:32,

Though my OP, obviously agrees with your conclusion.. I will play the devil's advocate here.

All of these passages are referring to the Resurrection, which surely no one believes the Thief was raised from the dead prior to Christ. Though, that depends on what "firstborn among many brethren means." I have always understood it to refer to Christ's resurrection coming first.

Or in 1 Corinthians 15, the preceding verse is talking about how all in Adam will day, and in Christ will all be made alive, but Christ first of course, then those who believe in him (who belong to him). It's about the resurrection, not being present in an immediate state.

Hebrews 12 for me is the most difficult chapter for me in coming to believe there isn't an intermediate state for the believer. These two passages:

Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1

This cloud of witnesses are those faithful Jews who died before apprehending what was promised, the picture this is painting is like that of the ancient games. Where we are running a race with endurance, toward the goal, Christ. And we are laying aside the sin which weighs us down and entangles us all the while being cheered on by a crowd, the crowd are those who have come before. This to me is pretty tough to refute for those who hold there is no intermediate state. But I've never even heard it addressed.

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, Hebrews 12:22-23

This one is speaking about how we, the earthly Church, has come not to Mount Zion, where God is ready to strike and lash out in judgement.. But rather Mount Zion and to the City of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, which we know God dwells and will descend to the new creation in Revelation. There are angels present, those also described in the heavenly city of new Jerusalem. The allusion to Esau and forsaking his birthright, leads me to believe that these are Christians who have not forsaken the inheritance as their birthright, the heavenly kingdom of God, which of course will one day come to this earth. But these men are described even as the "spirits of the righteous made perfect," this seems almost irrefutable (though I could be wrong) but as referring to those saints of the former and current dispensation being made perfect in the heavenly Jerusalem. And we, according to v.28 are presently in an ongoing fashion receiving a kingdom (the one described here) that cannot be shaken. Indeed, the receiving of the kingdom seems to be a progressive action, as it is near and indeed at hand, but we will enter into it fully one day.

Let me know what you think,
Servant of Jesus

 

[Doulos Iesou]

If it was as you say, "today or this day" would be redundant. "I say"is in the present tense in the Greek, using "today" as you say, would remove the natural force and the Truth that He was telling the Thief.(and us)

This would come from a misunderstanding of the present tense in Greek, it describe the action of the verb, before the time, basically a very literal translation would say.. "Truly I am saying to you.."

Also, it could be a further assurance, that the very day the man would die on the Cross, he is promised to see Jesus again in paradise.

Let me explain, the thief was not quite "right" in all he said in verse 42. He said,"when you come IN your Kingdom." (verse 42 is where I believe the modern translators messed up.)

Jesus started verse 43 with a "truly,Amen" because He was going to reveal that the thief was thinking wrong about Jesus coming IN His Kingdom. The thief still believed that Jesus was coming to set UP His Kingdom at that time.

That to me.. is a little far fetched, the Greek preposition εἰς can easily be rendered "in" or "into." Given the context, I don't think the Thief thought Jesus was about to setup his kingdom on earth, he was being crucified along with him.. not usually the way someone sets up a kingdom..

So Jesus starts this verse out with "truly" because he was revealing to the thief that the thief would be WITH Him, that very day in Paradise, A truth that would have been a shock and the ultimate blessing for the thief.

So I believe that the modern translators got this one pretty close to right.

As I cannot support the basis of your argument, your conclusion I must reject as well.

 

[Asyncritus]

Hey guys

Calm down a bit willya? No need for personalities and snide comments.

After all, 'The Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome...with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition...' 2 Tim 2.25,26

 

[WIP]

Hey guys

Calm down a bit willya? No need for personalities and snide comments.

After all, 'The Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome...with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition...' 2 Tim 2.25,26

What he said. Let's cool it please. Don't make me call Reba!

 

[Guest]

Now please understand, that I am not completely sold on the idea that there is no intermediate state for the righteous (I'm convinced there is none for the wicked), but I have heard this text consistently used to defend the position that we go immediately to "paradise" when we die, just like the Thief.

I believe today means when the righteous dead are resurrected at rapture.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I believe today means when the righteous dead are resurrected at rapture.

Do you believe there is an intermediate state for the wicked or righteous?

 

[Guest]

I believe today means when the righteous dead are resurrected at rapture.

Do you believe there is an intermediate state for the wicked or righteous?

No, I don't. I believe that the dead righteous and unrighteous are sleeping right now without consciousness. The dead righteous will be resurrected first at rapture to receive their rewards at the Bema, and the dead unrighteous will be resurrected at the Great White Throne after the devil is throne into the lake of fire. Blessings.

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=96193]Doulos Iesou[/MENTION] Do you believe the dead visit their loved ones in spirit hours or days after they die, THEN go to the grave and sleep. or is what people feel part of the grieving process.

 

[Butch5]

Introduction:

There is a text in Luke 23:43, where Jesus seems to be (according to the English translation) saying to the thief that he will be in "paradise" with Jesus, today, the very same day as Jesus was speaking.

Now, what I have been thinking lately is what in the Greek inspired this translation, with the adverb σήμερον (Today) either modifying the verb λέγω (I say) or ἔσῃ (will be).

I will merely be making observations from Luke's other uses of these words, and especially his quoting of Jesus using terminology like this to find out which would be a more likely rendering.

Today Modifies What?

And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." Luke 4:21(NASB)

In this instance, we see that the same Greek adverb σήμερον modifies the verb πεπλήρωται (Is Fulfilled) but the English translation is a little deceiving and doesn't draw us in on the difference.

Here, Jesus uses the word ὅτι (that) before he says today, so an extra literal translation would read "And he began to say to them THAT, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."

Here we see that the conjunction ὅτι (that) is employed before the word σήμερον (today) in order to specify it's application to πεπλήρωται (Is Fulfilled), rather than λέγειν (to say).

And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham. Luke 19:9(NASB)

Again we have this text come up again, but again we see something missing from the English translation that is indeed present in the Greek.

The conjunction ὅτι (that) again precedes σήμερον (today) which is the second time, we have found this to be the case stylistically. The EXTRA literal translation would read thus: "And Jesus said to him THAT, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham."

And He said, "I say to you, Peter, the rooster will not crow today until you have denied three times that you know Me." Luke 22:34

This is a general example of several other instances where when the adverb σήμερον (today) does not have the conjunction ὅτι (that) preceding it, it rather modifies the verb directly preceding it. As the Greek has verb φωνήσει (will crow) directly preceding the adverb. This is a general pattern throughout Luke.

And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:43(NASB)

In this verse there is no conjunction ὅτι (that) to modify the verb σήμερον (today), but actually we can observe that the verb directly preceding is λέγω (I say). Which this would lend to the pattern we have previously observed, even in the previous chapter that the adverb will modify the directly previous verb unless the conjunction ὅτι is present.

Conclusion:

I believe that based on the stylistic patterns that we have seen from Luke's gospel and his rendering of Jesus speech, it would be highly unlikely for the adverb σήμερον to modify ἔσῃ (will be) in Luke 23:43.

The verse I believe should rather be translated thus: "and He said to him, "Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise."

Now please understand, that I am not completely sold on the idea that there is no intermediate state for the righteous (I'm convinced there is none for the wicked), but I have heard this text consistently used to defend the position that we go immediately to "paradise" when we die, just like the Thief.

In my opinion, based on the observations that I have made, I find it highly improbable stylistically for the traditional translation. Rather, I believe one would have to read their own theology into the text and ignore all previous modes of interpretation and translation in order to render this passage in such a way.

While it doesn't seal the deal for me.. it certainly casts doubt.

Tell me what you think!

Blessings,
Servant of Jesus

 

[Butch5]

I believe today means when the righteous dead are resurrected at rapture.

Do you believe there is an intermediate state for the wicked or righteous?

Not as traditionally taught, that being the righteous are conscious in Paradise or Abraham's bosom and the dead in a place of torment.

 

[Guest]

Not as traditionally taught, that being the righteous are conscious in Paradise or Abraham's bosom and the dead in a place of torment.

Oh Lord, here we go again..

 

[10s3r]

Introduction:

While it doesn't seal the deal for me.. it certainly casts doubt.

Tell me what you think!

Blessings,
Servant of Jesus

Jesus has never said that in the NT. In other words. He has never told someone that what he was telling them he was telling them today. There's no need to. Especially coming from a dying man on a cross. He wasn't telling the penitent thief that "today he was telling him" he would be in paradise. He was telling him that "today after we both die you will be with me in paradise."

I've always said the more you complicate a simple verse the more it's unlikely to be true.

 

[Guest]

He was telling him that "today after we both die you will be with me in paradise."

That means the dead in Christ are already caught up in the air with Jesus, and the rapture came and went. If the thief is in paradise why not ALL the righteous that are dead.

 

[Deborah13]

Tell me what you think!

Nice job. Looking at the Gk interlinear I can easily see what you are pointing out and if you are correct about Luke's writing style, then I would agree and it makes more sense.

I do have one question though and please don't laugh. What about Sheol, wasn't that called Paradise and isn't it possible this is where Jesus went for that 3 days and nights. Or isn't?

 

[Deborah13]

Paradise

Quick off topic, interrupt, I'm starting an album of wildlife here, there will be several different birds. Maybe you'll enjoy too. Rocky Mt. birds and critters.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Nice job. Looking at the Gk interlinear I can easily see what you are pointing out and if you are correct about Luke's writing style, then I would agree and it makes more sense.

Thanks Deborah13, what I tried to accomplish was not trying to over complicate it, but rather look at the original language (as all translations must) and come to the most probably translation, as there must be arguments presented for why the adverb today would modify either verbs. I just don't think there is really any argument for a position contrary to mine besides, "well wouldn't that just be redundant for Jesus to say that," which Jesus spoke in ways quite different than we do, I don't think we should compare it to contemporary speech.

I do have one question though and please don't laugh. What about Sheol, wasn't that called Paradise and isn't it possible this is where Jesus went for that 3 days and nights. Or isn't?

Sheol, I believe to be the place of the dead, and if you were to look where dead people are right now... they'd be in the grave. Thus Hades or Sheol I don't believe to be some subterranean place at the center of the earth or beneath the ocean, but the place where our bodies/souls (note, Adam became a living soul, when life was breathed into his body, he wasn't GIVEN a soul, he became one) reside to await the Resurrection. Now... whether or not believers experience some form of existence apart from the body and beyond the grave.. I am not sure, I'm quite torn on the issue honestly.

The place where Jesus was for three days was indeed Sheol.. Hades.. the Grave, where God did not let his BODY see corruption.

Also, Paradise may either be referring to where God resides now, or when the heavenly Jerusalem descends down to Earth. Paul talks about a guy he knew who was taken up to Paradise, whether in the body or out of the body Paul doesn't know-God knows. This man was taken up to παράδεισος (paradise) and saw many things that he could not repeat what he heard or saw. Also in Revelation 2:7 we find the word, where it says that those who conquer will be given the right to eat from the tree of life IN the paradise of God. This tree of life is from the original Eden and we see it restored in the new creation.

So, I believe this Paradise exists now, in the heavenly city of new Jerusalem. I also, believe that it will reach it's full realization in the new creation, where the tree of life and the paradise is restored on Earth to bring immortality to men.

Please note, I'm trying to come at this issue without bias, and I want to be consistent with all the Biblical revelation.

 

[Guest]

(note, Adam became a living soul, when life was breathed into his body, he wasn't GIVEN a soul, he became one) reside to await the Resurrection.

He was given a soul, who do you think breathed life into his body? The rest of your post is awesome in the Lord.