In Paradise When?

[Deborah13]

Please note, I'm trying to come at this issue without bias, and I want to be consistent with all the Biblical revelation.

Yes you are, and seeing that only two other times is the word used and about the city then maybe we could safely say your interpretation is correct.

It's all so grand that the Lord left something for us to ponder and it will be exciting to find out the Truth someday. I do love a good mystery.

 

[John 8:32]

(note, Adam became a living soul, when life was breathed into his body, he wasn't GIVEN a soul, he became one) reside to await the Resurrection.

He was given a soul, who do you think breathed life into his body? The rest of your post is awesome in the Lord.

He became a soul along with...

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

The word here is exactly the same word as soul used in Gen 2:7 for soul. These creatures in the sea were given a soul? Or were they made a soul? Same for this verse...

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Again, same word. The question is what is a soul? The word for soul is...

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

And God concurs...

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

He told Adam that he could die. This theme is extant throughout the Bible...

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Man is a soul. An air breathing creature which can die and just like Rover, can die all over.

 

[10s3r]

That means the dead in Christ are already caught up in the air with Jesus,
and the rapture came and went. If the thief is in paradise why not ALL the
righteous that are dead.

You think like that because your applying it to what you already believe about a rapture and the intermediate state.

All the righteous people who died in Christ since His resurrection are "still in the grave," if you will. In other words we go to paradise which seems to be a conscious place of rest and wait the Lords return. We don't go to heaven when at death like so many Churches teach.

 

[Sinthesis]

I don't agree with the OP argument because the various examples presented differ in regards to past, present and future tence, rendering me unpursueded.

 

[berk60]

After Jesus was resurrected it says in Matthew 27:52-53 , "and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many." Could these be the people that were in Paradise given their new bodies going to heaven? or did they have to die again?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I don't agree with the OP argument because the various examples presented differ in regards to past, present and future tence, rendering me unpursueded.

I have a few objections to this disagreement.

1. There is no "past" tense in Greek, there is Perfect and Aorist (also Pluperfect.. but let's not go there) and Greek tenses don't function necessarily like English tenses, they more so speak of the type of action, rather than the time of action.
2. I don't quite see how differing tenses changes anything. Let's examine the texts again:

Luke 4:21(NASB) -

And He began to say(Present) to them, "Today(Adverb, no tense) this Scripture has been fulfilled(Present) in your hearing."

Luke 19:9(NASB) -

And Jesus said(Aorist) to him, "Today(Adverb) salvation has come(Aorist) to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

Luke 22:34(NASB) -

And He said, "I say(Present) to you, Peter, the rooster will not crow(Future) today(Adverb) until you have denied three times that you know Me."

And of course Luke 23:43(NASB) -

And He said to him, "Truly I say(Present) to you, today(Adverb) you shall be(Future) with Me in Paradise."

Let's examine Luke 23:43 and Luke 22:34 more specifically, in Luke 22:34 the adverb today modifies the verb that directly comes prior to it in the Greek, my hypothesis is that the adverb today modifies the verb that directly precedes it unless a conjunction is used such as "that." This isn't a grammatical rule per se, but I believe it is an observational style that we can note throughout Luke's gospel.

How about this Sinthesis, from the text can you present a positive exegetical case for why Today would modify the verb "'will be' with me in paradise." Can you?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

After Jesus was resurrected it says in Matthew 27:52-53 , "and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many." Could these be the people that were in Paradise given their new bodies going to heaven? or did they have to die again?

Or in the case of Lazarus being risen from the dead, nothing is said of him being in heaven and now having to live again. He was dead.. and now he lives. Though, the position I am on the border of, is that after the Resurrection of Jesus, those who die in Christ to go sleep in Christ and are present with him.

Therefore, I don't think it would be right in any case, if there is an intermediate state or not, to render this verse with the adverb modifying the verb "will be."

 

[Webb]

Hi Berk60

They died again otherwise Jesus would not be the "firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence" Col.1:18. Jesus was the firstborn from the dead never to die again.

 

[berk60]

They died again otherwise Jesus would not be the "firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence" Col.1:18. Jesus was the firstborn from the dead never to die again.

Yea, for sure Jesus is the firstborn from the dead but these came out of their graves after Jesus not before. So in any case Jesus is the first born from the dead. I just don't know if these died again like Lazarus or they went to Heaven as part of the Paradise release.

Could be that Jesus used this to further show His power. It says in Matthew 27:54 " So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

 

[Webb]

I take it that they died again for Jesus following his resurrection didn't ascend to heaven, meaning it would be difficult for one to precede Him into heaven.

God bless

 

[Sinthesis]

I don't agree with the OP argument because the various examples presented differ in regards to past, present and future tence, rendering me unpursueded.

I have a few objections to this disagreement.

1. There is no "past" tense in Greek, there is Perfect and Aorist (also Pluperfect.. but let's not go there) and Greek tenses don't function necessarily like English tenses, they more so speak of the type of action, rather than the time of action.
2. I don't quite see how differing tenses changes anything. Let's examine the texts again:

Luke 4:21(NASB) -

And He began to say(Present) to them, "Today(Adverb, no tense) this Scripture has been fulfilled(Present) in your hearing."

Luke 19:9(NASB) -

And Jesus said(Aorist) to him, "Today(Adverb) salvation has come(Aorist) to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

Luke 22:34(NASB) -

And He said, "I say(Present) to you, Peter, the rooster will not crow(Future) today(Adverb) until you have denied three times that you know Me."

And of course Luke 23:43(NASB) -

And He said to him, "Truly I say(Present) to you, today(Adverb) you shall be(Future) with Me in Paradise."

Let's examine Luke 23:43 and Luke 22:34 more specifically, in Luke 22:34 the adverb today modifies the verb that directly comes prior to it in the Greek, my hypothesis is that the adverb today modifies the verb that directly precedes it unless a conjunction is used such as "that." This isn't a grammatical rule per se, but I believe it is an observational style that we can note throughout Luke's gospel.

How about this Sinthesis, from the text can you present a positive exegetical case for why Today would modify the verb "'will be' with me in paradise." Can you?

I'm not a Greek scholar, so I certainly wouldn't challenge the accumulated work of those who are unless I was looking to support an unconventional doctrine. There are enough different ways to interpret English... That said:

Luke 19:5(TR) καὶ ὡς ἦλθεν ἐπὶ τὸν τόπον ἀναβλέψας ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶδεν αὐτόν καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτόν, Ζακχαῖε σπεύσας κατάβηθι σήμερον γὰρ ἐν τῷ οἴκῳ σου δεῖ με μεῖναι​

Luke 19:5 - And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.​

If we follow your hypothesis about Luke 23:43 and apply the resultant implications to Luke 19:5, then we would have Jesus telling Zacchaeus that day to hurry up and come down from the sycomore tree, but only so Jesus could stay at Zacchaeus' house sometime in the future, but certainly not on that particular day.

Of course Jesus and the repentant criminal were also in trees. The question is where were they at the end of crucifixion day? The answer probably exists not in Greek grammar, but in a better understanding of what is meant by 'paradise'.

 

[Butch5]

Paradise

Quick off topic, interrupt, I'm starting an album of wildlife here, there will be several different birds. Maybe you'll enjoy too. Rocky Mt. birds and critters.

Where is the album. I do wildlife photography too!

 

[Guest]

All the righteous people who died in Christ since His resurrection are "still in the grave," if you will. In other words we go to paradise which seems to be a conscious place of rest and wait the Lords return. We don't go to heaven when at death like so many Churches teach.

Yes, i believe they are still in the grave, but there is no conscious place after death. We are in a sleeping state in our graves without consciousness until judgment day. Heaven/the New Jerusalem/Paradise are all the same place. The only difference is that He makes everything new again after the Great White Throne Judgment. He will literally bring Heaven/the New Jerusalem/Paradise to earth and make the earth new again. Revelation 21:1

 

[Butch5]

I don't agree with the OP argument because the various examples presented differ in regards to past, present and future tence, rendering me unpursueded.

I have a few objections to this disagreement.

1. There is no "past" tense in Greek, there is Perfect and Aorist (also Pluperfect.. but let's not go there) and Greek tenses don't function necessarily like English tenses, they more so speak of the type of action, rather than the time of action.
2. I don't quite see how differing tenses changes anything. Let's examine the texts again:

Luke 4:21(NASB) -

And He began to say(Present) to them, "Today(Adverb, no tense) this Scripture has been fulfilled(Present) in your hearing."

Luke 19:9(NASB) -

And Jesus said(Aorist) to him, "Today(Adverb) salvation has come(Aorist) to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

Luke 22:34(NASB) -

And He said, "I say(Present) to you, Peter, the rooster will not crow(Future) today(Adverb) until you have denied three times that you know Me."

And of course Luke 23:43(NASB) -

And He said to him, "Truly I say(Present) to you, today(Adverb) you shall be(Future) with Me in Paradise."

Let's examine Luke 23:43 and Luke 22:34 more specifically, in Luke 22:34 the adverb today modifies the verb that directly comes prior to it in the Greek, my hypothesis is that the adverb today modifies the verb that directly precedes it unless a conjunction is used such as "that." This isn't a grammatical rule per se, but I believe it is an observational style that we can note throughout Luke's gospel.

How about this Sinthesis, from the text can you present a positive exegetical case for why Today would modify the verb "'will be' with me in paradise." Can you?

I'm not a Greek scholar, so I certainly wouldn't challenge the accumulated work of those who are unless I was looking to support an unconventional doctrine. There are enough different ways to interpret English... That said:

Luke 19:5(TR) καὶ ὡς ἦλθεν ἐπὶ τὸν τόπον ἀναβλέψας ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶδεν αὐτόν καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτόν, Ζακχαῖε σπεύσας κατάβηθι σήμερον γὰρ ἐν τῷ οἴκῳ σου δεῖ με μεῖναι
​

Luke 19:5 - And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
​

If we follow your hypothesis about Luke 23:43 and apply the resultant implications to Luke 19:5, then we would have Jesus telling Zacchaeus that day to hurry up and come down from the sycomore tree, but only so Jesus could stay at Zacchaeus' house sometime in the future, but certainly not on that particular day.

Of course Jesus and the repentant criminal were also in trees. The question is where were they at the end of crucifixion day? The answer probably exists not in Greek grammar, but in a better understanding of what is meant by 'paradise'.

Hi Synthesis,

The issue is not as much grammar as style. Grammatically, "today" can apply to either of the two verbs. About "Paradise", in the Septuagint the Garden of Eden is Paradise. This is the same thing we see in Revelation.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I'm not a Greek scholar, so I certainly wouldn't challenge the accumulated work of those who are unless I was looking to support an unconventional doctrine. There are enough different ways to interpret English... That said:
Luke 19:5(TR) καὶ ὡς ἦλθεν ἐπὶ τὸν τόπον ἀναβλέψας ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶδεν αὐτόν καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτόν, Ζακχαῖε σπεύσας κατάβηθι σήμερον γὰρ ἐν τῷ οἴκῳ σου δεῖ με μεῖναι
Luke 19:5 - And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
If we follow your hypothesis about Luke 23:43 and apply the resultant implications to Luke 19:5, then we would have Jesus telling Zacchaeus that day to hurry up and come down from the sycomore tree, but only so Jesus could stay at Zacchaeus' house sometime in the future, but certainly not on that particular day.

Of course Jesus and the repentant criminal were also in trees. The question is where were they at the end of crucifixion day? The answer probably exists not in Greek grammar, but in a better understanding of what is meant by 'paradise'.

Hi Sinthesis, thank you for your response, and it is indeed a great response and I think this will come to much more fruitful discussion. To understand why the adverb σήμερον modifies the verb μεῖναι in this instance requires a bit more of a look at the grammar here as there are grammatical principles at play here that were not in the other verses.

The adverb σήμερον (today) in Luke 19:5 is contained in an Infintival Clause, basically what that means is this is a dependent clause in which an infinitive is the main verbal component. Therefore, due to the grammatical structure, today must modify the substantival infinitive verb μεῖναι (to stay, to remain).

Hmm.... what I'm going to do is raise an objection to my own argument here through discourse analysis, what may be at play here is a Temporal Frame, which includes a fronting of temporal information, in the case of Luke 19:5 and Luke 23:43 where the temporal adverb would provide the temporal information of course. Thus fronting this information, in order to establish a specific time frame for the clause that follows.

I want to follow the exegesis as unbiasly as possible, and it may turn out that I might be arguing with myself as not many people around here utilize the Greek. But I may have just refuted myself, or at least came up with the strongest possible argument for the contrary of what my OP asserted.

Also, I find the study of the word "paradise" to be inconclusive as well as it is referred to in both the heavenly kingdom of the present and the future new creation where we will dwell in the paradise and eat of the tree of life.

Let me know what you think,
Servant of Jesus

 

[Deborah13]

Where is the album. I do wildlife photography too!

I'm going to try to do one here in my profile. I'll let you know, should be early next week.

 

[10s3r]

This is what my 1973 edition of Baker's Dictionary of Theology says.
I say paradise is "the intermediate state."

Baker's dictionary of theology.

By the intermediate state is meant that realm or condition in which the soul exist between the death of the body and the resurrection. That such a state is a reality is acknowledged by practically all branches of our christian church. Differences of opinion regarding it have to do primarily with the nature of of the state, as to whether or not it is pugatorial, in character, whether or not the soul may reform and repent, and whether the soul is concious or asleep.

The bible has comparatively little to say about the intermediate state, evidently because it is only a tempory condition. Rather it focuses attention on the return of Christ and the new era that is to follow. There are however several passages that teach that it is a state of concious existence for both the righteous and the wicked. For the righteous it is a time of rest and of blessedness and joy. And for the wicked it involves suffering. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus represents Lazarus as concious and blessed in Abraham's bosom, while the rich man is in torment (Luke 16:19-31). While on the cross Christ promised the penitent theif, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). And John say's: "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth: yes, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them" (Rev. 14:13 ASV). See also 2 Cor. 5:8 and Phil. 1:23. From these verses we learn that after the death of the body the saints live gloriously in the presence of God and amid the transcendent splendor of paradise.

The intermediate state is sometimes characterized as a state of rest does not mean that those who have a part in it are idle or inactive. Rather the word "rest" carries with it the idea of satisfaction in labor, or joy in accomplishment. All of the unpleasant features are removed so that the activity of the saints is no longer "toil" or "labor".
But even for the righteous the intermediate state is a time of imperfection, first, because the spirit is without a body, which for human beings is an abnormal condition; and, second, because the rewards promised to the saints are not given in their fulness until the second coming of Christ. See Luke 14:14 and 2 Tim. 4:8. The blessings of the intermediate state, great as they are, are to be looked upon as only an earnest and foretaste of the good things which are to come.

The life of man is thus represented as falling not into two but into three states. First there is the period from birth until death, which is life in the present world and in the natural body. Second, there is life in the intermediate state, which is life without the body. And third, there is life in the resurrection body and in the fulness of heaven (qv) which is the final and eternal state.

 

[Butch5]

This is what my 1973 edition of Baker's Dictionary of Theology says.
I say paradise is "the intermediate state."

Baker's dictionary of theology.

By the intermediate state is meant that realm or condition in which the soul exist between the death of the body and the resurrection. That such a state is a reality is acknowledged by practically all branches of our christian church. Differences of opinion regarding it have to do primarily with the nature of of the state, as to whether or not it is pugatorial, in character, whether or not the soul may reform and repent, and whether the soul is concious or asleep.

The bible has comparatively little to say about the intermediate state, evidently because it is only a tempory condition. Rather it focuses attention on the return of Christ and the new era that is to follow. There are however several passages that teach that it is a state of concious existence for both the righteous and the wicked. For the righteous it is a time of rest and of blessedness and joy. And for the wicked it involves suffering. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus represents Lazarus as concious and blessed in Abraham's bosom, while the rich man is in torment (Luke 16:19-31). While on the cross Christ promised the penitent theif, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). And John say's: "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth: yes, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them" (Rev. 14:13 ASV). See also 2 Cor. 5:8 and Phil. 1:23. From these verses we learn that after the death of the body the saints live gloriously in the presence of God and amid the transcendent splendor of paradise.

The intermediate state is sometimes characterized as a state of rest does not mean that those who have a part in it are idle or inactive. Rather the word "rest" carries with it the idea of satisfaction in labor, or joy in accomplishment. All of the unpleasant features are removed so that the activity of the saints is no longer "toil" or "labor".
But even for the righteous the intermediate state is a time of imperfection, first, because the spirit is without a body, which for human beings is an abnormal condition; and, second, because the rewards promised to the saints are not given in their fulness until the second coming of Christ. See Luke 14:14 and 2 Tim. 4:8. The blessings of the intermediate state, great as they are, are to be looked upon as only an earnest and foretaste of the good things which are to come.

The life of man is thus represented as falling not into two but into three states. First there is the period from birth until death, which is life in the present world and in the natural body. Second, there is life in the intermediate state, which is life without the body. And third, there is life in the resurrection body and in the fulness of heaven (qv) which is the final and eternal state.

Hi 10s3r,

That is what many believe, however, that is not what the Scriptures teach. That idea came into the Church from Greek philosophy. Many Christians will turn to Luke 16 as evidence for this idea, but Jesus' teaching is not that there is an after life, it is that the Jews would soon be removed from the priesthood.

 

[10s3r]

Hi 10s3r,

That is what many believe, however, that is not
what the Scriptures teach. That idea came into the Church from Greek philosophy.
Many Christians will turn to Luke 16 as evidence for this idea, but Jesus'
teaching is not that there is an after life, it is that the Jews would soon be
removed from the priesthood.

I don't know exactly what you mean. It doesn't help when you don't give me reasons why you believe what you believe. In other words show me "what the scriptures teach!"
Luke 16 isn't a parable to me. It happened. Jesus said, "there was a certain rich man."

 

[10s3r]

Paradise and the souls under the altar of the fifth seal.

Revelation 6:9-10 ¶And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

The fifth seal, the martyred souls. One doctrine I have always questioned is the intermediate state. I can't find any scripture that say's that when we die we go directly to heaven. I have tried over and over again to see this in the light that most Christians do, and failed every time. I believe things haven't changed since Christ ascended. I have always stood by paradise as being the resting place where the dead in Christ await the resusertion.

Rev 6:9-11 And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the alter the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their bretheren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Christ chose to show us in the fifth seal that the martyred saints are waiting in paradise and that His vengence will soon come on those commiting these crimes. They are told to wait as paradise fills even more. Altars are symbolic of paradise in more than one instance in the bible. Why would God confine his martyrs under an altar in heaven? Paradise is waiting for the resurrection. They're anxious for an end to things and know their redeemer is coming! As you read this passage, you can sense their anticipation and are told to wait and expect an influx of more martyrs, and then the Lord will avenge their blood on them that dwell on the earth.
So according to Luke 16 which was an actual event and Rev. 6:9, we go to paradise and are conscious of it.