2 Thes 2.3 and 1 Tim 4.1

[RandyK]

It's not necessarily the Holy Spirit, but it can't be the Roman Empire either. Roman Empire was the beast from the sea with a lion's mouth, leopard's body and bear's feet, a patchwork of the previous empires; it receives a deadly wound on the head, but with the help of the beast from the earth, it rises again, and all nations on earth will yield their power and authority to it, eventually it would be like a re-enactment of the tower of babel. This would be the new Roman Empire, and it's more like the restrainEE than the retrainer.

The book of Daniel appears to view the 4th Beast as the Roman Empire, which does look similar to the Beast in the book of Revelation. You are conflating the two, however. The Beast that Daniel saw was viewed from its point of origin, whereas the Beast that John saw was viewed in its last days perspective.

So I would say that the 4th Beast from its origins, as Daniel saw it, was in fact the Roman Empire. And from the way John saw it, from its last days perspective, it is a European Empire under Antichrist.

I trust the bible translators, and I do believe the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, at least it's the rule of law that keeps society in order. In the past several hundred years of history, you have Napoleon, Hitler, Musoulini, Franco, Stalin, Mao, all these are prototypes of the final Antichrist, and they were all results of violent civil unrest where law and order were removed, and I'm afraid this kind of history is repeating itself in America. In the end, this would be staged and replayed on a global scale.

The existence of prototypical Antichrists does not prove that the Restrainer is viewed, by Paul, as the Holy Spirit. Again, Paul inferred that the Restrainer was already understood by his readers.

This suggests to me that Paul is deliberately hiding the identity of the Restrainer. And this would make sense if he was insinuating, from the knowledge of Daniel 7, that the 4th Kingdom was the Restrainer, or the Roman Empire.

Paul would not have wanted the Romans to read his letter and hear that he was identifying the Roman Empire as something hated in the Scriptures and in his theology. So Paul likely hid the fact that the Restrainer was the 4th Empire in its unified state, awaiting ultimate fulfillment in the Antichristian Empire once that Empire had fragmented into 10 nations.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The book of Daniel appears to view the 4th Beast as the Roman Empire, which does look similar to the Beast in the book of Revelation. You are conflating the two, however. The Beast that Daniel saw was viewed from its point of origin, whereas the Beast that John saw was viewed in its last days perspective.

So I would say that the 4th Beast from its origins, as Daniel saw it, was in fact the Roman Empire. And from the way John saw it, from its last days perspective, it is a European Empire under Antichrist.

Those two beasts are one and the SAME, the only difference is that John saw it healed, that's the end time global Beast system. If you compare the vision of the four beasts with the vision of the metallic man, after gold head, silver chest and bronze belly, there're only iron legs; in the end there're the iron feet of iron mixed with clay, and the ten toes the equivalent of the ten horns/ten kings, but it's still iron; therefore that "European Empire under Antichrist" is the healed beast and revived Roman Empire.

The existence of prototypical Antichrists does not prove that the Restrainer is viewed, by Paul, as the Holy Spirit. Again, Paul inferred that the Restrainer was already understood by his readers.

This suggests to me that Paul is deliberately hiding the identity of the Restrainer. And this would make sense if he was insinuating, from the knowledge of Daniel 7, that the 4th Kingdom was the Restrainer, or the Roman Empire.

Paul would not have wanted the Romans to read his letter and hear that he was identifying the Roman Empire as something hated in the Scriptures and in his theology. So Paul likely hid the fact that the Restrainer was the 4th Empire in its unified state, awaiting ultimate fulfillment in the Antichristian Empire once that Empire had fragmented into 10 nations.

That's just your opinion with no biblical or historical evidence for support. Actually, your view is contradicting the real historical progress - after the fall of the original western Roman Empire, you've got hundreds of small kingdoms, dukedomes and earldoms, then in the 19th century they were slowly unified into sovereign nations, in the 20th century into political blocs, then the European Union, and in foreseeable future, a new Roman Empire, that's the reverse of "fragmentation". If Roman Empire were the "restrainer", then it was already taken out of the way around the middle of the 6th century, was the Antichrist revealed?

 

[RandyK]

Those two beasts are one and the SAME, the only difference is that John saw it healed, that's the end time global Beast system. If you compare the vision of the four beasts with the vision of the metallic man, after gold head, silver chest and bronze belly, there're only iron legs; in the end there're the iron feet of iron mixed with clay, and the ten toes the equivalent of the ten horns/ten kings, but it's still iron; therefore that "European Empire under Antichrist" is the healed beast and revived Roman Empire.

You'll have to read my response again, but I think that's what I just said?

That's just your opinion with no biblical or historical evidence for support.

That's a strange response in view of the fact my view was based primarily on the Bible! I was referencing Daniel 7!

Actually, your view is contradicting the real historical progress - after the fall of the original western Roman Empire, you've got hundreds of small kingdoms, dukedomes and earldoms, then in the 19th century they were slowly unified into sovereign nations, in the 20th century into political blocs, then the European Union, and in foreseeable future, a new Roman Empire, that's the reverse of "fragmentation". If Roman Empire were the "restrainer", then it was already taken out of the way around the middle of the 6th century, was the Antichrist revealed?

You don't have to accept my position. I said what holds back the arrival of Antichrist is the fact the Roman Empire, in its original 2-kingdom state, has to be broken up into 10 kingdoms.

That is what the Bible indicates. That you should believe, regardless of who you wish to be the Restrainer.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You don't have to accept my position. I said what holds back the arrival of Antichrist is the fact the Roman Empire, in its original 2-kingdom state, has to be broken up into 10 kingdoms.

That is what the Bible indicates. That you should believe, regardless of who you wish to be the Restrainer.

But that doesn’t line up with recorded European history. After the original Roman Empire collapsed, it was broken up into way more than ten, in England alone were seven, and as I said, these kingdoms have been unified into sovereign countries, and they are on a trajectory of merging into a revived Roman Empire, that’s not my opinion but a fact. The two legs are two political coalitions after the falls of western and eastern Roman empires, it was most obvious during the Cold War when the whole world were divided by the iron curtain into these two opposing camps. Those ten kingdoms will only come into being at the very end, during the 3.5 years of the great tribulation under the reign of the Antichrist, not anytime before that.

when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. (Deut. 18:22)

 

[Rondmon]

The identity of the "restrainer" depends on how your bible version puts it in the key verse of 2 Thess. 2:7. Usually in the NT all mentions of the holy trintiy have capped initials, so in this case, if the "he" is capped, then it's intended to be none other than the Holy Spirit. If not, then it's open to interpretation.

When we speak of Jesus we also say he, not He, so it is the holy spirit that is taken out of the way, but not out of the earth, when one read let (bind) and letteth (binds) it is simply saying that the holy spirit is the one who binds the AC from coming forth. Why? Because he can not come forth until the church departs, when read correctly it all times in. Its the holy spirit working trough the church that binds the AC from coming forth, Jesus told us the gates of hell will not overcome my church, in Revelation the gates of hell is given a free reign to do as he so pleases.

People think of something leaving, instead think of a road being blocked and then unblocked. The holy spirit through the church is a giant road block, once the church leaves the holy spirit stops blocking the AC from coming forth.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

When we speak of Jesus we also say he, not He, so it is the holy spirit that is taken out of the way, but not out of the earth, when one read let (bind) and letteth (binds) it is simply saying that the holy spirit is the one who binds the AC from coming forth. Why? Because he can not come forth until the church departs, when read correctly it all times in. Its the holy spirit working trough the church that binds the AC from coming forth, Jesus told us the gates of hell will not overcome my church, in Revelation the gates of hell is given a free reign to do as he so pleases.

People think of something leaving, instead think of a road being blocked and then unblocked. The holy spirit through the church is a giant road block, once the church leaves the holy spirit stops blocking the AC from coming forth.

There's much debate over the identity of the tribulation saints in Revelation. This should be a cut and dry piece based on how they're described repeatedly in Revelation, but it goes against the rapture doctrine, so to keep the narrative straight, somehow those are new converts who're evangelized by the 144,000 led by the two witnesses. This is bastardization of bible prophecy.

"These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev. 7:14)
"And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Rev. 12:17)
"It was granted to him (the Antichrist) to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation." (Rev. 13:7)
"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." (Rev. 20:4)

 

[MisterE]

There's much debate over the identity of the tribulation saints in Revelation. This should be a cut and dry piece based on how they're described repeatedly in Revelation, but it goes against the rapture doctrine,

How so?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

How so?

Why are these saints still here being persecuted by the Beast when they're supposed to have been raptured from the earth?

 

[Rondmon]

There's much debate over the identity of the tribulation saints in Revelation. This should be a cut and dry piece based on how they're described repeatedly in Revelation, but it goes against the rapture doctrine, so to keep the narrative straight, somehow those are new converts who're evangelized by the 144,000 led by the two witnesses. This is bastardization of bible prophecy.

Nowhere in scriptures does it ever say the 144,000 are evangelists, that comes from MEN. Go reread it, they nee PROTECTION. The 144,000 and the 1/3 in Zech. 13:8-9 are the same people, ones a ratio, ones a CODE, just like the 10 virgin brides which stand for the church or complete Christendom as 10 = completion. So, 12 = fulness and 10 = completion so...

12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000 or ALL Israel who repents. So, you need to get that right, go look nowhere do the 144,00 preach, but an Angel in Rev. 14:6 takes over that duty after the rapture. These are men's tall tales brother.

"These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev. 7:14)

NO ONE come into the marriage after the doors are shut, you are looking at the pre trib. raptured church there and do not understand the church came out of tribulation, millions were killed for Jesus' name, many by Rome, many by Muslims. In John 16:33 Jesus tells us that ALL TIME on this even earth is TRIBULATION, go read it. So, of course the church came out of tribulation. No one from the 70th week will be seen in heaven, read Rev. 20:4 those killed by the Beast only get raised and judged after the 2nd coming. At the 5th Seal just gives them a white robe and tells them they must wait a LITTLE SEASON (42 months) before they get their vengeance. You are simply not identifying the groups properly.

"And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Rev. 12:17)

Not the Jews here, this CAN NOT BE Jews and I can prove this. So, the Dragon can not get at The Woman (Israel who repents, the 1/3 the 144,000) so he TURNS via the AC army and goes after the Remnant who keep have the testimony of Jesus. Well, this can not be the 1/3 Jews who are PROTECTED and the 2/3 are not a remnant AND they do not repent right? so they can not be of Jesus. So, this is the Gentile Remnant (small part) Church that is on the earth while THE CHURCH is in Heaven marrying the Lamb. Theses ae the Gentiles who repent AFTER the rapture, that's why they are a Remnant. You simply get all of the players wrong.

"It was granted to him (the Antichrist) to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation." (Rev. 13:7)

Saints in general = Jews. They are called the holy peoples in Daniel, that does not mean they are all holy are all saints per se. Read John in Rev. 17 he on purpose separates the blood of the Martyrs of Jesus (both Jews and Gentiles) and the Blood of the Saints, the Harlot (False Religion) has the blood of all God's peoples, the Saints AND the Martyrs of Jesus.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." (Rev. 20:4)

Which proves me correct, the Judgment for these people happen AFTER the 2nd coming.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Nowhere in scriptures does it ever say the 144,000 are evangelists, that comes from MEN. Go reread it, they nee PROTECTION.

I was just reporting some particular dispensationalist teachings from the pulpit, I never support or espouse their view, don't shoot the messenger.

 

[MisterE]

Why are these saints still here being persecuted by the Beast when they're supposed to have been raptured from the earth?

There are different saints. You have OT Saints, Church Saints, Tribulation Saints, and i am sure there will be Millennial Saints. The Rapture is ONLY for Church Saints, the Bride of Christ. The saints you are referring to are Tribulation Saints. They are not part of the other categories of saints. That is, they are not part of the Church Saints.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

There are different saints. You have OT Saints, Church Saints, Tribulation Saints, and i am sure there will be Millennial Saints. The Rapture is ONLY for Church Saints, the Bride of Christ. The saints you are referring to are Tribulation Saints. They are not part of the other categories of saints. That is, they are not part of the Church Saints.

You're making up stuffs by complicating a simple matter. The biblical narrative is consistent, in the end you either have your name written in the Book of Life or not.