In Spirit And In Truth...

[Edward]

John 4:23-24
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.../

Jesus was talking to the woman at the well and said these things to her. But what do they really mean?

 

[eddif]

John 4:23-24
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.../

Jesus was talking to the woman at the well and said these things to her. But what do they really mean?

Partly
Revelation 4:2 kjv
2. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

There are more in the spirit verses.

Symbolism points to truth but Jesus is the ultimate truth. The word became flesh.

Good subject.

eddif

 

[Randy]

John 4:23-24
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.../

Jesus was talking to the woman at the well and said these things to her. But what do they really mean?

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

John 4:23-24
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.../

Jesus was talking to the woman at the well and said these things to her. But what do they really mean?

Jesus is contrasting worshiping "in Jerusalem" with worshiping "in spirit". True worship is in the Spirit and that is how true worshipers worship, according to truth, and it is those worshipers that he seeks. True worship occurs in the spirit at the altar of the heart in the tabernacle of the body. And it is with those sacrifices that God is pleased.

Hebrews 13:10
10We have an altar from which those who serve at the tabernacle have no right to eat.

 

[eddif]

Of course there is that double edged sword. With the realization of the spirit, comes the negative (understanding of the flesh).

Christ in us. Our hope.

Romans 7:25

eddif

 

[Edward]

Of course there is that double edged sword. With the realization of the spirit, comes the negative (understanding of the flesh).

Christ in us. Our hope.

Romans 7:25

eddif

And?

 

[eddif]

And?

Ecclesiastes 7:16 kjv
16. Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself?

Just we have to realize the flesh is still with us, although we have Christ in us. At the resurrection we are totally changed.

Helps explain the oh wretched man scriptures in Romans.

Two areas. Mind of Christ - body of sin. Changed from dominion of sin to Christ working in us.

I can chill. (Hopefully)

eddif

 

[for_his_glory]

We worship in Spirit and truth as the Holy Spirit indwells us and teaches us all truths and all things before the Lord are Spiritual and separate from the law and the curse of the law.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
John 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

No one can worship that of what they do not understand. Many worship with carnality and blind to truth.

 

[Edward]

No one can worship that of what they do not understand. Many worship with carnality and blind to truth.

So whats the difference between worshipping carnally or worshipping in spirit and truth?

 

[eddif]

11 Timothy 1:8 kjv
8. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9. Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10. For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11. According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

A subject that helps the one new man effective.

The law is placed in the inner man and is not for outer ceremony.

Spirit and truth rather than on hearts of stone.

Jesus talking to the lady was exposing this.


eddif

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So whats the difference between worshipping carnally or worshipping in spirit and truth?

It's the difference between relating to God through regulations about food and drink vs. relating to and experiencing him personally through the life and joy of the Holy Spirit. Ritual vs. relationship.

Romans 14:17-18
17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18For whoever serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

This is one of my life verses. This truth is what led me to salvation and powers my relationship with God now. I'd grown up with 'religion' and all the procedures and rituals of Christianity and it led me no where. But then I learned about having a relationship with God as a person. A friend who cared, not a far off fierce, demanding king who I could never approach.

 

[eddif]

It's the difference between relating to God through regulations about food and drink vs. relating to and experiencing him personally through the life and joy of the Holy Spirit. Ritual vs. relationship.

Romans 14:17-18
17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18For whoever serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

This is one of my life verses. This truth is what led me to salvation and powers my relationship with God now. I'd grown up with 'religion' and all the procedures and rituals of Christianity and it led me no where. But then I learned about having a relationship with God as a person. A friend who cared, not a far off fierce, demanding king who I could never approach.

A little different verse, but the same thought.
Colossians 2:16 kjv
16. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

I went through 12+ years thinking the shadows were the ultimate reality. Not knowing shadow things point to Jesus inside us. It is not wrong to have knowledge of the law, but knowing the difference in law and reality is a journey.
We should use the law lawfully .

Jew and gentile are the one new man. I was not a Jewish person, but I lived under the law.

eddif

 

[for_his_glory]

So whats the difference between worshipping carnally or worshipping in spirit and truth?

Because the carnal mind can not perceive the things of the Spirit. It would be like some one saying I do not need to be Spiritually born again in order to go to heaven.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2Tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Tim 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Tim 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Edward]

Because the carnal mind can not perceive the things of the Spirit. It would be like some one saying I do not need to be Spiritually born again in order to go to heaven.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2Tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Tim 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Tim 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I'm not sure what the 2Timothy passage has to do with it, but the 1 Corinthians passage makes it very plain that in our mind we have no clue of the Spirit of God or even our own spirit. The problem arises when (most) people identify with their mind. When they say this is me, they say it from the same carnal mind that is unable to discern these things.


What do you tell those people when they ask, how do I worship in spirit?

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

We are in the last days so I think it is safe to say that, the hour has come which Jesus spoke about. As Believers, we should now be praying and worshipping in spirit. So now you have a big group of Believers who love the Lord but unwittingly approach Him from the carnal mind, then pray to Him. Because they still identify with the flesh/their mind.

So how would one explain to these, how to do this?

 

[LovethroughDove]

So Jesus explains it before that passage. He says in John 4:21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

He is saying that people went to a "place" to worship, but believers worship nonstop with our spirit and his Spirit. I don't go anywhere to worship now.

 

[Edward]

So Jesus explains it before that passage. He says in John 4:21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

He is saying that people went to a "place" to worship, but believers worship nonstop with our spirit and his Spirit. I don't go anywhere to worship now.

So it's spirit to Spirit then.

So would one simply, oh no not yet. Let's say, Ok, so how would one make their spirit rise up within themselves and take over the prayer and worship...while the carnal mind stands down?

Who would tell their mind to stand down?!

 

[Edward]

We know that the Holy Spirit bears witness (talks to) our spirit because scripture says so. And we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. I have to presume that our "Holy of Holies" is in our spirit then.

So worshipping in spirit is the same as woershipping spirit to Spirit. Now I've never got to listen in on the conversations that the Holy Spirit has had with my spirit and I used to think that He only spoke to our spirits at night when we slept but doubt that now because what it would boil down to I think is He speaks whenever He wants to but it is a different language. A Spirit language.

So how is Believer suposed to force his spirit to speak an unknown language that you can't even hear in order to worship his Lord, in spirit?

How do you do that?

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm not sure what the 2Timothy passage has to do with it, but the 1 Corinthians passage makes it very plain that in our mind we have no clue of the Spirit of God or even our own spirit. The problem arises when (most) people identify with their mind. When they say this is me, they say it from the same carnal mind that is unable to discern these things.


What do you tell those people when they ask, how do I worship in spirit?



We are in the last days so I think it is safe to say that, the hour has come which Jesus spoke about. As Believers, we should now be praying and worshipping in spirit. So now you have a big group of Believers who love the Lord but unwittingly approach Him from the carnal mind, then pray to Him. Because they still identify with the flesh/their mind.

So how would one explain to these, how to do this?

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Many have an outward appearance that seems to be holy to others as they come with their Sunday best and Bible in hand in appearance to sit for an hour, but yet have not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit nor the power of God as they have no relationship or fellowship with Him.

To worship in Spirit and truth means to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that teaches us all truths as one has that personal relationship with Christ Jesus.

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (fire means empowerment)

 

[Edward]

Tell me if this makes sense.

We set down our logical thinking mind.
Then go internally, into our spirit.
We very much take the "me" with me to wear "me" on the face of my spirit.
Now I am my spirit.
Now I enter my own Holy of Holies to worship my God and to present my supplications.

But since I am not using my carnal mind, I can not do these things with words. Is this where the heart comes into play? Feelings?
There's a good question: Can a Believer pray without speaking any words? Can you simply embrace the emotional factor of the situation (whether joyful or sad) while focusing on our Lord in spirit? The feelings of our heart yes? Jesus said, I know your heart, right?!! So is embracing the emotions of your heart alone and with no accompanying words, still a prayer? It would have to be. Because emotional prayers are very fervent prayers and the Lord says, He likes to answer those ones!

It's probably impossible for a carnal mind to 'figure this out' I think I'm coming close though.

 

[Edward]

Many have an outward appearance that seems to be holy to others as they come with their Sunday best and Bible in hand in appearance to sit for an hour, but yet have not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit nor the power of God as they have no relationship or fellowship with Him.

Yeah but, arent those also the same souls that we are to teach and edify and encourage them to help bring them into the fullness of God and truth?

To worship in Spirit and truth means to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that teaches us all truths as one has that personal relationship with Christ Jesus.

Yes but don't forget that most of those all truths, comes from scripture. And most will not read their Bibles! And it's then that the relationship comes. So when many go to church to worship or pray, they approach the entire process from their carnal mind.

Loosely speaking, we carry more than one identity within us. Believers must get used to putting on their spirit persona in the morning.
Their Jesus persona too! The mind of Christ along with the indwelling of the wonderful Holy Spirit!
It's getting crowded in here!