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Infant Baptism

aLoneVoice said:
So, in your understanding - what is the purpose of Baptism? If baptism is not meant to show submission to Christ, if it is not meant to show obedience, if it is not meant to be an expression of one's faith, if it is not meant to be a time or rejoicing with the community of believers - then what is it?

You see - a child cannot express any of those things mentioned in the previous paragraph.
I believe that Baptism is just a dedication of individuals to Christ and is totally superfluous to gaining entrance into Heaven. And thus I am going to continue to believe in Infant Baptism as well as Adult Baptism. Whether or not someone is Baptized has nothing whatsoever to do with their gaining entrance into Heaven. When everybody stands before Christ after passing away, He will not require of everybody that they had been Baptized, received Christ as their Savior and belonged to a Fundamentalist Protestant Church to gain entrance into Heaven. The only thing that Christ will require to gain entrance into Heaven is that they had received Him as their Savior. :D
 
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francisdesales said:
Yes, we are the Body of Christ, although the Catholic Church is the visible fullness of that Body. You are still part of that Body through your baptism as long as you do not reject Christ's Church, His Body. Anyone receiving valid baptism, whether by a Protestant (most of them, anyway) or a Catholic has still entered through the door of the Church.

Regards

I see that the catholic church is still pushing indulgenses
 
RobertMazar said:
I believe that Baptism is just a dedication of individuals to Christ and is totally superfluous to gaining entrance into Heaven. And thus I am going to continue to believe in Infant Baptism as well as Adult Baptism. Whether or not someone is Baptized has nothing whatsoever to do with their gaining entrance into Heaven. When everybody stands before Christ after passing away, He will not require of everybody that they had been Baptized, received Christ as their Savior and belonged to a Fundamentalist Protestant Church to gain entrance into Heaven. The only thing that Christ will require to gain entrance into Heaven is that they had received Him as their Savior. :D

Yes - I would agree that the only requirement into Heaven is the belief in Jesus Christ as the propitiation for our sins.

However, Did not Paul encourage those who were only baptized by John to be re-baptized?

Throughout the NT it is said that we are to Repent, and then get Baptized.

Lastly, are we not to follow the example of Christ - who was Baptized, not as an infant, but as an adult!

Baptize is a self-dedication unto the Lord. Someone cannot get baptized FOR ME or make the decision to be baptized FOR ME.
 
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jgredline said:
I see that the catholic church is still pushing indulgenses

They have been given divine authority to do so, at least in two separate places in Matthew's Gospel explicitly. I can see it implicitly in other places, as well. The People of God have been involved in penance since before Jesus became incarnate. Don't judge something because some bishop abused the practice. Do we bring down the US Government because a president of the US lied to Congress?

Regards
 
Solo said:
Joe,
If your definition of Church were correct, we would be in agreement; however, your visage of the Church being the Roman Catholic church and its dogma is severly lacking. In fact, the teachings of salvation, sanctification, and glorification are in error; not to mention the idolatry, the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, purgatory, etc. etc. etc.

You would be surprised, Mike, to learn that the "Church" is NOT THE Catholic Church. The Church SUBSISTS in the Catholic Church, not IS the Catholic Church. Huge difference. If Vatican 2 used the word "is" rather than "subsists", you would have every right to complain about the Catholic Church's teachings. However, if you read the Catechism, you will find that people can receive salvation and not even be a visible bible- believing Christian. I have tried to explain this, but you have not wanted to follow up on this conversation.

The rest, well, we could discuss those individually.

Regards
 
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francisdesales said:
They have been given divine authority to do so, at least in two separate places in Matthew's Gospel explicitly. I can see it implicitly in other places, as well. The People of God have been involved in penance since before Jesus became incarnate. Don't judge something because some bishop abused the practice. Do we bring down the US Government because a president of the US lied to Congress?

Regards

please provide the biblical support for this.
 
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jgredline said:
please provide the biblical support for this.

Matthew 16:18 and Matthew 18:18 gives the Church the power to bind and loosen. To a first century Jew, this includes judicial and authoritative acts.

Regards
 
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francisdesales said:
Matthew 16:18 and Matthew 18:18 gives the Church the power to bind and loosen. To a first century Jew, this includes judicial and authoritative acts.

Regards

Your joking :o I will be back after work...
 
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francisdesales said:
Matthew 16:18 and Matthew 18:18 gives the Church the power to bind and loosen. To a first century Jew, this includes judicial and authoritative acts.

Regards
Actually, it only pertained to disciplinary (judicial) issues. Check the context of the passage and the historical context as well. It doesn't apply itself to matters of determining doctrine. If anything, this passage supports the ekklesia's heavenly ability to ex-communicate, based on God's moral laws.
 
Act 18:24-28 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, showing by the Scriptures that Jesus was Christ.
 
Isn't it funny after those verses, Peter (Whom the catholics say they get there infalliblity (from inpart)) always seems to be sticking his foot in his mouth?
 
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vic C. said:
Actually, it only pertained to disciplinary (judicial) issues. Check the context of the passage and the historical context as well. It doesn't apply itself to matters of determining doctrine. If anything, this passage supports the ekklesia's heavenly ability to ex-communicate, based on God's moral laws.

Since when does "binding and loosening" NOT refer to making binding laws on the community? Did not the Rabbi have that ability in the Synagogue? I remember Jesus telling His disciples to "OBEY THEM" in Matthew 23:3. This would include any determination they made in regards to the community, whether it was on washing of dishes or other rituals, or on the interpretation of Scriptures.

Regards
 
Hi everyone,

I just had a few thoughts that I would like to share.

I wanted to mention 1 Peter 3

8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Our baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God...our obedience, our earnest desire to serve God. It's our answer to those around us for the hope that is in us...the sanctifying of God in our hearts before men, and Him.

Colossians 2
1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;
2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ.
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

We are free from this world, and delivered from it, because we are dead to sin...dead to our uncircumcised flesh, and made alive by Him. Since we are truly dead to sin, we are alive in Christ...spiritually. Our baptism is our burial that plunges us forward in hope to the resurrection of Christ...it is the first step in a physical new life, the hope to following Him in bodily resurrection. We identify with Him, and we let others know we are on the path that leads to life.

Infant Baptism, and Infant Dedication, are really not needed at all. We are to be fruitful and multiply, and to raise Godly seed for God...this is most important. We are to give them in service to God as Hannah did...this is true dedication. We are to give them over to His care ultimately, but it is through our faith obedience that the work is done. We are to raise children in the fear and admonition of the Lord...we are to teach them Scripture as we go about our daily walk with Christ...we are to saturate them with the love, discipline, and mercy of God...we are to pray that God saturates them with His Holy Spirit...with grace through their faith. As parents, this is our first ministry, our first mission field. Children are arrows, or should be, and the Scriptures say blessed is the man who's quiver is full of them. It is not enough to ritually dedicate them, or baptize them, and in some cases this is a false sense of security for parents...and for children. We need to be DISCIPLING them, and preparing them to receive the gift of salvation...then once they do, DISIPLING THEM MORE WITH THE AID OF THE HOLY SPIRIT to go and tell others of Christ. We are preparing them to spread the Gospel. This is what Christ did for His disciples, and didn't they progress and grow leaps and bounds once they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit!? When a child truly becomes a believer, then it will be his blessing to stand before his brothers and sisters in Christ and be baptized into the faith brotherhood...into the church of Christ...into the doctrine of Father God alone. He is obeying Christ and taking a step into the hope of the resurrection.

Sometimes we are more concerned with rituals, rather than obedience. It is a type of washing the outside of the cup, and not the inside. If we obey God's commands with hearts given over to His will, and if we do good works toward our children...reflecting Christ genuinely...then they have a good foundation to build on if they receive Christ in their lives. They also have been given the Word early. The ritual is simply empty unless it means something to the child in a sincere way.

Just some thoughts on the topic, the Lord bless.
 
Lovely post, Lovely! Thank you for cleaning up the cobwebs that tend to form in these discussions. :smt023
 
lovely said:
Hi everyone,

I just had a few thoughts that I would like to share.

...The ritual is simply empty unless it means something to the child in a sincere way.

Just some thoughts on the topic, the Lord bless.

Lovely,

If I may, I would like to give you a few thoughts on what the first Christians believed on Baptism. Considering they heard the Apostles with their own ears and in the original language, it can be said that they were in a good position to KNOW what was taught regarding Baptism. And I got to tell you, the polls are unanimous on the sacrament:



And I said to him, "I should like to continue my questions." "Speak on," said he. And I said, "I heard, sir, some teachers maintain that there is no other repentance than that which takes place, when we descended into the water and received remission of our former sins." He said to me, "That was sound doctrine which you heard; for that is really the case. For he who has received remission of his sins ought not to sin any more, but to live in purity
(Shepherd of Hermas, 4,3,1 c. 140 AD)

Mark how He has described at once both the water and the cross. For these words imply, Blessed are they who, placing their trust in the cross, have gone down into the water; for, says He, they shall receive their reward in due time: then He declares, I will recompense them. But now He saith, "Their leaves shall not fade." This meaneth, that every word which proceedeth out of your mouth in faith and love shall tend to bring conversion and hope to many. Again, another prophet saith, "And the land of Jacob shall be extolled above every land." This meaneth the vessel of His Spirit, which He shall glorify. Further, what says He? "And there was a river flowing on the right, and from it arose beautiful trees; and whosoever shall eat of them shall live for ever." This meaneth, that we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God] and trust in Jesus in our spirit.
(Letter of Barnabas, p/o Chapter 11, c. 90 AD)

CHAPTER LXI -- CHRISTIAN BAPTISM.

I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: "Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, saith the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if ye refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."

And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the layer the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.

(Justin Martyr, First Apology, Chapter 61, c. 150 AD)

HAPPY iS our sacrament Of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life! A treatise on this matter will not be superfluous; instructing not only such as are just becoming formed (in the faith), but them who, content with having simply believed, without full examination of the grounds of the traditions, carry (in mind), through ignorance, an untried though probable faith. The consequence is, that a viper of the Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism. Which is quite in accordance with nature; for vipers and asps and basilisks themselves generally do affect arid and waterless places.
(Tertulian, On Baptism, Introduction. c. 200)

Clearly, the first Christians thought that the Christian water baptism, being born of water and the spirit, was for the remission of sins, just as the Bible states. How do we explain this, unless the Apostles actually taught this - as Justin and Tertulian and so forth said...

Those who say baptism is lifeless need to take into account these writings of Christians who heard the apostles with their own ears or were taught by men who heard the apostles themselves.

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
Clearly, the first Christians thought that the Christian water baptism, being born of water and the spirit, was for the remission of sins, just as the Bible states. How do we explain this, unless the Apostles actually taught this - as Justin and Tertulian and so forth said...
Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

For arguments sake I'll grant you that perhaps baptism has some part in the remission of sins and that the Apostles taught that, as in Acts 2:38. In reference to the title of this thread, how can an infant repent and of what are they repenting?
 
Free said:
Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

For arguments sake I'll grant you that perhaps baptism has some part in the remission of sins and that the Apostles taught that, as in Acts 2:38. In reference to the title of this thread, how can an infant repent and of what are they repenting?

You are correct on returning this thread back to its OP. Just pointing out that we Christians 2000 years removed may not have the best vantage point of what the Apostles taught.

It seems to me that infant baptism is discussed monthly here, and I doubt I can add anything new to the mix. Suffice to say that Christians did write about it and say it was an ancient, apostolic practice (Origen wrote this in 225 AD or so). I see there is an implicit interpretation of the practice found in Col 2, where Paul compares Baptism to Circumcision. It would be odd that Circumcision would be "more powerful" than Baptism as a sign, because, by its very nature, circumcision is done on an infant.

Baptism is seen as offered for the remission of sins in the first centuries, as we have noted. However, it ALSO is seen as the door through which people enter into the Church (ordinarily). When theologians began to consider that aspect, taking Paul's Colossian parallel, I guess the Christians of the time looked more at the aspect of making their children and infants "people of God" based on the proxy offer by the parents. I would imagine that this would happen once Christianity became more established, like in the 2nd century when it became apparent that the Parousia was not coming immediately.

These are my thoughts on the matter, my analysis of how the doctrine "got off the ground". I have done lots of reading on Church history, and this seems to be a logical conclusion - that infant baptism may or may not have been immediately practiced, but by the second or third generation, it definitely was - with the idea of bringing children into the Household of God - as did the Jews did with their infants. It has continued since then. One would be hard pressed to do away with a practice that has been done by the "Spirit-led" Church (according to Christ) for so long. The Spirit, if He disapproved, would have cried out in rebellion if such a practice was foisted upon the early Church. There is very little evidence that the practice was fought against. As a matter of fact, people desired to baptize EVEN EARLIER than 8 days!

Regards
 
Would I be right in stating that infant baptism is then used as a means of conferring God's grace until such a time as they are old enough to choose to follow Christ?

That is pretty much the way I see it which is pretty much the same as Evangicalism's "baby dedication", or whatever term a church or denomination uses.

Personally, I have no problem with infant baptism used a means of conferring God's grace for protection, for future guidance, and welcoming the infant into the Church until such a time as they must choose for themselves whether or not they will follow Christ.
 
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