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Infant Baptism

Seasoned by Grace said:
Faith includes KNOWLEDGE, opinions based on knowledge and opposing doctrines based on faith - DID YOU GET THAT?
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Human faith can be based on knowledge. Divine faith can exist without knowledge. Human faith does not save, divine faith does.

An example of the difference between human faith and divine faith can be found in John's gospel, chapter 6. When Jesus said "except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you," (John 6:54) the Jews did not understand "how this could be", murmured and rejected Jesus' words. The apostles did not understand either, but they accepted Jesus's words because "Thou hast the words of eternal life." (John 6:69). The Jews only had human faith, which is based on either knowledge, experience, understanding or human authority. The apostles had divine faith which is based on the authority of God revealing, apart from our own knowledge, experience or understanding.

When an infant is baptised in the Catholic Church, the first question that is asked of the parents is "What do you ask of the Church?" And the answer is "Faith." In other words, we ask for "the gift of faith", i.e. divine faith. Divine faith is a gift that we all receive at baptism, including infants. Divine faith is not based on our own knowledge, experience or understanding. It is what we call a virtue.

So, yes, infants cannot have human faith because they cannot yet know, love and believe in God, but they can and do receive divine faith when they are baptised because divine faith is a free gift to anyone who asks for it, just as salvation is a free gift to anyone who asks for it. And this is what Jesus referred to in Matthew 18:3, when he said we must become like little children. Little children do not question everything their parents tell them, at least not back then. They accept what their parents tell them on the authority of the parents, even if they do not understand. This is why the attitude of little children is a model for divine faith: we believe because God said so, without questioning, without murmuring, without disobedience.

By the way, just as salvation can be lost, so too can divine faith be lost!

So we must all ask ourselves: Do I "eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood", on the authority of Jesus saying we must do so in order to have life? Or do I reject or nullify Jesus' words because I do not understand "how this can be so?" Do I walk away from Jesus like "many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him"? (John 6:67) Or will I stay with Christ, believe His words and obey His commandments, even the ones I do not understand? Is my faith human or divine?
 
Tradidi said:
What is it then about little children that we should imitate in order to get to heaven.
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Children are so honestly and innocently loving and accepting of everyone no matter what they are like and don't have a clue how to have an ego or be arrogant or be judgemental, or expect anyone to be any different than they are, or be hateful and condemning.

Children are so beautiful from an authentic, simple, beautiful heart, and He wants us to be the same from a truly God given "super-natural" loving heart that can ONLY come from Him, that He can use to draw others to Himself

My name is OLIGOS
 
Tradidi said:
#1) Divine faith can exist without knowledge.

#2) So, yes, infants cannot have human faith because they cannot yet know, love and believe in God, but they can and do receive divine faith when they are baptised because divine faith is a free gift to anyone who asks for it, just as salvation is a free gift to anyone who asks for it.
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I much appreciate the time you've taken to post your thoughts, and noted 2 statements of yours to comment on and ask you to think about, and maybe adjust what you believe. More KNOWLEDGE of Gods word would help too my brother.
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# 1) (You said) Divine faith can exist without knowledge.

(I said) Where does true faith about God come from? Mine came from a friend who shared the KNOWLEDGE of Christ with me, so i could start believing.

(I said) Proverbs 2:2-6 & 10 say's, "Make your ear attentive to wisdom, incline your heart to understanding, cry out for discernment and understanding and discover the KNOWLEDGE of God, for FROM GOD"S MOUTH comes KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING, (10) and KNOWLEDGE will be pleasant to your soul.
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#2)( You said) ..."but they (INFANTS) can and do receive divine faith when they are baptised because divine faith is a free gift TO ANYONE WHO ASKS FOR IT, just as salvation is a free gift TO ANYONE WHO ASKS FOR IT.

(I said) In this last statement you mix the inclusion of infants ASKING for divine faith with adults ASKING for divine faith, as if their is no difference between their abilities, and yet the big error in your statement is that INFANTS can't even talk let alone ask for anything, let alone ask for a DIVINE FAITH.

Think about your words, and the fact that we aren't allowed to "Add to or take away from Gods word."

God bless you with much LOVE as you travel your path of faith with us all.
My name is OLIGOS
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Seasoned by Grace said:
(You said) Divine faith can exist without knowledge.
(I said) Where does true faith about God come from? Mine came from a friend who shared the KNOWLEDGE of Christ with me, so i could start believing.
(I said) Proverbs 2:2-6 & 10 say's, "Make your ear attentive to wisdom, incline your heart to understanding, cry out for discernment and understanding and discover the KNOWLEDGE of God, for FROM GOD"S MOUTH comes KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING, (10) and KNOWLEDGE will be pleasant to your soul.
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You are confusing the gifts of the Holy Spirit with the virtue of faith. Knowledge is not faith and understanding is not faith. Faith is the virtue whereby we believe what God has revealed, not because we have knowledge and understanding of it, but because God has revealed it. If God tells me "you must eat my flesh and drink my blood" then I believe it, even though I may not understand how it is to be done. We see another beautiful example of this in the Annunciation. Mary did not understand how she would become the Mother of God (as she had made a vow of virginity), but she believed it anyway and accepted it as God's will. That is faith.

Seasoned by Grace said:
#2)( You said) ..."but they (INFANTS) can and do receive divine faith when they are baptised because divine faith is a free gift TO ANYONE WHO ASKS FOR IT, just as salvation is a free gift TO ANYONE WHO ASKS FOR IT.

(I said) In this last statement you mix the inclusion of infants ASKING for divine faith with adults ASKING for divine faith, as if their is no difference between their abilities, and yet the big error in your statement is that INFANTS can't even talk let alone ask for anything, let alone ask for a DIVINE FAITH.

Think about your words, and the fact that we aren't allowed to "Add to or take away from Gods word."
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We can receive a gift by asking for it, or by someone else asking on our behalf. You received the gift of life even though you did not ask for it. Likewise with the gift of sight, health, etc.. You did not ask but still you received. Likewise, just as parents can ask God to give their child the gift of sight or health, they can ask God to give their child the gift of faith.
 
Mungo said:
Please suppoly some official Church document defining "Limbo" as an official infallible teaching of the Catholic Church, not what some nun taught you in Boston.
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(chuckle) That's the utterly typical Catholic response!!! "It doesn't matter what some ignorant Priest, or Nun TAUGHT their people - it's NOT "OFFICIAL DOCTRINE". It's only recently that Rome actually eliminated that particular heresy, but it was used to frighten GENERATIONS of Catholics for years - particularly in Strong Catholic areas (like Boston).
 
Mungo said:
They are born again in baptism. It's not a false reality.
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Except since there's no such thing as "Original SIN, and all Paedobaptism does is wet their heads, and Babies are totally INNOCENT, it's a phony solution to a non-existant problem.
 
Bob Carabbio said:
Of course: James 1 - the discussion of temptation. Adam and Jesus BOTH faced exactly the same temptation. Adam let his "conceive", and become SIN, Jesus didn't.
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Is that it? Adam was tempted and Jesus was tempted, so they share the same human nature? I guess my dog has a human nature too then, since he's easily tempted with Woofies Biscuits. In fact, he falls for it every time :)

Talking about James 1, in verse 14 we read that "every man is tempted by his own concupiscence, being drawn away and allured." Jesus on the other hand was tempted by the devil, not by his own concupiscence. I would say this clearly shows that man suffers from original sin, but Jesus did not !!!
 
JLB said:
Babies, like everyone else must believe the Gospel first, then if they do they are baptized. We are saved by grace through faith, not saved by baptism.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9


Furthermore, Paul goes on and explains the process of how we come to believe.


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:14-17


  • And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

  • So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.



A Person must hear the Gospel to receive faith.

A person must believe in their heart and confess with their mouth to be saved.


Can an infant do that?

Little children are innocent.



JLB
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What we are heading into here is another interminable argument about baptism, what it is and does. It's almost on the same level as OSAS - it goes on and on and never gets resolved.

I believe that whatever baptism does (or can do ) an adult, it does (or can do) for an infant.
See post #17

Blessings
Mungo
 
Bob Carabbio said:
(chuckle) That's the utterly typical Catholic response!!! "It doesn't matter what some ignorant Priest, or Nun TAUGHT their people - it's NOT "OFFICIAL DOCTRINE". It's only recently that Rome actually eliminated that particular heresy, but it was used to frighten GENERATIONS of Catholics for years - particularly in Strong Catholic areas (like Boston).
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What an utterly dishonest post.
 
Seasoned by Grace said:
ABSOLUTELY, because Love should be, to me, the very essence of our core, and the greatest focus in our lives that we LIVE FROM each day of our lives. It should be the center of our existance that all things flow from. :thumbsup

My name is OLIGOS
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Mungo said:
What we are heading into here is another interminable argument about baptism, what it is and does. It's almost on the same level as OSAS - it goes on and on and never gets resolved.

I believe that whatever baptism does (or can do ) an adult, it does (or can do) for an infant.
See post #17

Blessings
Mungo
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I posted the scripture that says baptism in water is for believers.

I also posted Romans 10:9-10 to show how a person is saved.


I just don't see how an infant can believe the gospel if they don't understand words yet.


JLB
 
Tradidi said:
What is it then about little children that we should imitate in order to get to heaven?
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I once heard.....to become as little children is to be dependent on your parent. Similarly, A Christian must become dependent on Christ and what He did.
 
Cygnus said:
I gotta disagree...sorry. Adam fell and his eyes were opened....he changed. Mankind was cursed. Mankind has a sin nature added to them. There is none good.
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Yes their eyes were opened. They now knew they were naked and hid from God who asked them, "who told you were naked?" They now could be tempted by that awareness.

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever

Satan and a third of the angels sinned they were not human at all.

The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
The weakness was there in the beginning the flesh and with the awareness added that was a combination that resulted in "all have/will sin" and God would not allow one to live in that condition forever. So they were driven and kept from the tree of life resulted in death entering the world through the one sin of the one man as flesh was created mortal.
 
JLB said:
Babies, like everyone else must believe the Gospel first, then if they do they are baptized. We are saved by grace through faith, not saved by baptism.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9


Furthermore, Paul goes on and explains the process of how we come to believe.


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:14-17


  • And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

  • So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.



A Person must hear the Gospel to receive faith.

A person must believe in their heart and confess with their mouth to be saved.


Can an infant do that?

Little children are innocent.

JLB
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Its not quite the danger you envision as its just the beginning into the faith. Raising the child in the Lord follows. I was baptized as a infant. (Lutheran) I did not receive the gift of the Spirit until much later when I asked the Lord for the gift. And I kept asking until I had the inward presence of the Spirit confirmation. Some have told me that's not the proper method and that's not how God gives the Spirit. Well I did ask and Jesus did respond with His authority to do so. That's my testimony.
 
Mungo said:
Faith is required but an infant cannot have faith.
However parents and God-parents make a profession of faith on behalf of the infant and the parents, assisted by the God-parents, promise to bring the child to faith by teaching them about Jesus.
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scripture that says that please
 
Bob Carabbio said:
Except since there's no such thing as "Original SIN, and all Paedobaptism does is wet their heads, and Babies are totally INNOCENT, it's a phony solution to a non-existant problem.
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As one who was baptized as a infant and received the Spirit later the problem I have with your does nothing context is that prayers are also asked/offered to the Lord. How do you know what He does or doesn't do? He certainly has authority to do whatever "pleases" Him to do. We read in the NT where parents took their children to Jesus to bless them. As I have stated elsewhere the baptizm is just the beginning of the journey into the faith. Raising up the child in the Lord follows.
 
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