Iron Clad example proving OSAS from John 10:28

[chessman]

It says the fire.

That's just it. Jesus didn't say in this passage that the branches are cast into:
1. the fire that shall never be quenched
2. unquenchable fire

But He could have, if that's what He meant.

BTW, read without chapter/verse breaks, Here's what Jesus did say to His disciples: John 14:28-15:2 (NKJV)

You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said,‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe. I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me. But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, so I do [and He goes to His cross and to the Father]. Arise, let us go from here. I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

Do you have any thoughts/comments/exegesis of John 10:28?

 

[atpollard]

The point of the OP is that John 10 :28 has no conditions for those given eternal life for never perishing. The point is that the ONLY condition for NEVER PERISHING is to receive eternal life. That is what Jesus clearly taught.

Then your effort is fore-doomed to failure. Taking John 10:28 all alone and ignoring the details of salvation, both sides will agree that eternal life is received at salvation and those who have salvation and eternal life will never perish. YOU will continue to believe that salvation and eternal life are gained at the start of the race of faith, while OTHERS will continue to believe that salvation and eternal life are gained when you cross the finish line. Thus both sides will agree on the verse and never agree on the conclusion.

However, since you prefer to wrangle over a single verse and play scripture pong, I wish you well in your endeavor.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Then your effort is fore-doomed to failure. Taking John 10:28 all alone and ignoring the details of salvation, both sides will agree that eternal life is received at salvation and those who have salvation and eternal life will never perish. YOU will continue to believe that salvation and eternal life are gained at the start of the race of faith, while OTHERS will continue to believe that salvation and eternal life are gained when you cross the finish line. Thus both sides will agree on the verse and never agree on the conclusion.

However, since you prefer to wrangle over a single verse and play scripture pong, I wish you well in your endeavor.

The most difficult thing two Christ Followers can do is to agree to disagree on points that have naught to do with Salvation.

 

[reba]

If hell as we commonly use the word ... is eternal,
is it eternal life in hell ?

 

[atpollard]

If hell as we commonly use the word ... is eternal,
is it eternal life in hell ?

I would view it as 'eternal dying'. My wife worked as a hospice nurse and I have learned that even in life there are things worse than death.

I am very glad that this is not an issue up for a vote. I am happy to leave these sorts of eternal details to God and trust that His decision will be right, because I know that any decision that I made would keep me awake at night.

I see the core of the issue being the nature of a soul. When God created a soul, he created something that could exist in both this material world (in our body) and also something that could survive death and exist in His world outside of time and space. So the issue becomes one of can a soul be destroyed? I have no idea.

If a soul can be destroyed, then the damned are to be cast into God's garbage heap and completely burned away until there is nothing left of what they were.

If a soul cannot be destroyed, then it just burns forever. Unable to approach God and unwilling to repent. Ever.

Sadly for them, I suspect that a soul is eternal. God breathed some of His breath/spirit into Adam to make mankind a 'living being created in the image of God'. I suspect part of that "image of God" is an eternal soul ... just as our Creator is eternal. Thus those who reject God may not be able to 'die' in the sense of an eternal rest, but may be trapped in an eternal state of 'dying' by their refusal to repent. People can be stubborn and hateful without the Holy Spirit to moderate our darker nature.

 

[th1b.taylor]

If hell as we commonly use the word ... is eternal, is it eternal life in hell ?

As I understand it, yes mam! I say that because we learn from the scriptures that God is with no beginning and with no end. And at this point, pondering become essential because in the Creation Story teaches us, from the mouth of God, we are created in the "Image" of God.

We look around and the World is filled with people that loo nothing alike to our eyes. So it is that I postulate that there is a part of every man, woman and child that is a mystery to us, as is God's physical appearance. In that fashion there must be a part of us, and I insist there is, that is not visible to the Natural Eye and can only be viewed with Spiritual Eyes.

That part of us that never expires, that is the image of God, must move into Eternity, the Spirit World. In the Spirit World, a place none of us can comprehend for the lack of pertinent information from visitors there, there appear to be two Permanent Locations, Heaven and Hell.

It is my understanding that Heaven will come down and be on the Earth, after the Rapture and after the Millennial Reign of Jesus and under Him, the Bride. I find Hell a horrible place and I find it stupid when people inform me they would rather exist in Hell for Eternity than to live with a cruel god. But God is not cruel but he is a Just God and a Just God does give us a choice of where we reside when we move from this Temporal Body.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I would view it as 'eternal dying'. My wife worked as a hospice nurse and I have learned that even in life there are things worse than death.

I am very glad that this is not an issue up for a vote. I am happy to leave these sorts of eternal details to God and trust that His decision will be right, because I know that any decision that I made would keep me awake at night.

I see the core of the issue being the nature of a soul. When God created a soul, he created something that could exist in both this material world (in our body) and also something that could survive death and exist in His world outside of time and space. So the issue becomes one of can a soul be destroyed? I have no idea.

If a soul can be destroyed, then the damned are to be cast into God's garbage heap and completely burned away until there is nothing left of what they were.

If a soul cannot be destroyed, then it just burns forever. Unable to approach God and unwilling to repent. Ever.

Sadly for them, I suspect that a soul is eternal. God breathed some of His breath/spirit into Adam to make mankind a 'living being created in the image of God'. I suspect part of that "image of God" is an eternal soul ... just as our Creator is eternal. Thus those who reject God may not be able to 'die' in the sense of an eternal rest, but may be trapped in an eternal state of 'dying' by their refusal to repent. People can be stubborn and hateful without the Holy Spirit to moderate our darker nature.

I agree with most of what you have said except the decision, better known as the Predestination part. God finished the Book of life before He created the World, this is a truth. But the issue with both Major Positions is that part of scripture must be ignored to reach that conclusion.

With my first rule of Hermeneutics is, "No scripture can be fully understood without the light of all scripture shining on it," what you propose is not possible. Instead, studying the scriptures of both positions and reconciling them instead of making the error of casting some of them into File 13 and ignoring them because of some incorrect decision where I appoint myself master over God and rewrite His Word, (2Tim 3:16,17) It is so important not to put limitations on the Most Holy God of all.

 

[atpollard]

I agree with most of what you have said except the decision, better known as the Predestination part. God finished the Book of life before He created the World, this is a truth. But the issue with both Major Positions is that part of scripture must be ignored to reach that conclusion.

With my first rule of Hermeneutics is, "No scripture can be fully understood without the light of all scripture shining on it," what you propose is not possible. Instead, studying the scriptures of both positions and reconciling them instead of making the error of casting some of them into File 13 and ignoring them because of some incorrect decision where I appoint myself master over God and rewrite His Word, (2Tim 3:16,17) It is so important not to put limitations on the Most Holy God of all.

Sorry for the lack of clarity on my part. Nothing in my post was about salvation. I am glad that GOD decides the details about whether Hell is complete destruction or eternal torment, because I would not want to have to make the decision about whether a soul could be destroyed or must suffer forever. I tried to carefully avoid discussing how or why any soul ended up in Hell and just focused on what happened after arrival.

 

[Jim Parker]

If hell as we commonly use the word ... is eternal,
is it eternal life in hell ?

Your question conflates "eternal life" with "biological life."

God alone has life by nature. (Life is an essential part of what God is.)
To have eternal life is to be united to God in Christ. The metaphor of Jesus being the vine and believers the branches in John 15 illustrates the concept. Branches that are cut off from the vine (Jesus) or which do not remain in the vine (in Jesus) die.
The second death is eternal existence separated from God. So those in hell do not experience eternal life in hell, they experience eternal death. (They continue to be biologically alive and conscious as the rich man in Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the rich man at Luke 16:19-31)

Man was created in God's image and likeness and was not intended to experience death. Death entered the world through sin. (Ro 5:12)
Part of death is the corruption of the body (dust to dust) which is also not in accord with God's purpose in creating man in HIs image and likeness.
By His death and resurrection, Christ destroyed the power of death and sin to destroy the image of God in man through death. All of mankind will be raised immortal and incorruptible. (1Co 15:53)

Where each individual spends eternity is up to each individual. Those who believed in Christ and obeyed His command (love one another) will be given eternal life. Those who did not will receive the eternal second death.
(John 3:36; 5:28-29; Ro 6:2-10; Mat 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:17)

So both those who have eternal life and those who have the second death have immortal and incorruptible bodies but only those who are "in Christ" (who are "one flesh with Christ" Eph 5:30-32) have eternal life.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Jim Parker]

The most difficult thing two Christ Followers can do is to agree to disagree on points that have naught to do with Salvation.

IMO (whatever that's worth) the OSAS view endangers one's salvation, according to popular usage of that word, by encouraging a "do nothing" attitude toward submitting to God's will for our lives.

The popular understanding of the words "Salvation" and "Saved" is that one who is saved is "going to heaven."
That view is commonly combined with the encouragement to abhor any suggestion that any kind of works have anything to do with "salvation."

That is a confused notion of salvation which has conflated two events into one. The two events are; (1) the resurrection of all mankind and (2) the judgment of all mankind with some receiving eternal life, eternal existence united to Christ, and the rest receiving condemnation to the second death with is also an eternal, conscious, existence, separated from God.

When Jesus died and rose again, He saved ALL MANKIND from the consequences sin which are physical death and corruption of the body. (Dust to dust) All of mankind will be raised from the dead and will never again experience physical (biological) death.
(1 Cor 15:52-57)

At the judgment of mankind, all will receive the reward of their acts prior to Jesus' second coming. (John 3:36; 5:28-29; Ro 6:2-10; Mat 25:31-46; 1 Pe 1:17)

So, all of mankind has been saved from physical death but only those who believed in Christ and obeyed His commandments (love God; love one another; love your neighbor) will be given eternal life in intimate union with Christ. Those who did not believe and/or did not keep His commandments will be given eternal death separated from Christ.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[th1b.taylor]

IMO (whatever that's worth) the OSAS view endangers one's salvation, according to popular usage of that word, by encouraging a "do nothing" attitude toward submitting to God's will for our lives.

But that is in no fashion true. In my personnel case and in my management of men, both in the Military and in my business giving people clear choices with definite results attached and letting them choose results in many more sincere respondents. Add to that that God wants His Love returned and He could have but did not create robots and you have the real nature of God. Not the Calvinst and not the Arminian god but the God of the scriptures.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The point of the OP is that John 10 :28 has no conditions for those given eternal life for never perishing. The point is that the ONLY condition for NEVER PERISHING is to receive eternal life. That is what Jesus clearly taught."

Then your effort is fore-doomed to failure. Taking John 10:28 all alone and ignoring the details of salvation, both sides will agree that eternal life is received at salvation and those who have salvation and eternal life will never perish.

No, both sides do NOT agree. Because Jesus was very clear about who WILL NEVER PERISH. The ONLY CONDITION for NEVER PERISHING is for Jesus to give them eternal life.

The "other side" claims that there are conditions to staying saved and finally NEVER PERISHING. But Jesus was clear about what He said.

And there are no other verses that "explain" what He said in John 10:28 to change the plain meaning of the words that He said.

YOU will continue to believe that salvation and eternal life are gained at the start of the race of faith, while OTHERS will continue to believe that salvation and eternal life are gained when you cross the finish line. Thus both sides will agree on the verse and never agree on the conclusion.

What is gained "crossing the finish line" is eternal reward. Anyone can scan the word "reward" and find many references to it in the NT. It's a biblical teaching. But the "other side" seems to see only getting to heaven from a mix of faith and works, or going to hell for lack of either. They view seems to have no place for rewards.

 

[FreeGrace]

If hell as we commonly use the word ... is eternal,
is it eternal life in hell ?

The Bible describes the lake of fire as the second death (Rev 20:6, 14, 21:8). So I'd answer your question with this: it is eternal death in hell.

 

[FreeGrace]

IMO (whatever that's worth) the OSAS view endangers one's salvation, according to popular usage of that word, by encouraging a "do nothing" attitude toward submitting to God's will for our lives.

The only way the teaching of eternal security can "harm" anyone is when it is taught WRONG. There are very serious consequences for those who rebel against God. It's called discipline, and according to Heb 12 it is PAINFUL, and can lead to a painful physical death.

Paul referenced God's divine discipline in 1 Cor 11:30.

Further, eternal reward is lost for those who are unfaithful. 2 john 8 - Look to yourselves,that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

 

[th1b.taylor]

If hell as we commonly use the word ... is eternal,
is it eternal life in hell ?

Not really but it is , instead, a never ending death, miserable.

 

[Jim Parker]

In my personnel case and in my management of men, both in the Military and in my business giving people clear choices with definite results attached and letting them choose results in many more sincere respondents.

I agree.
However, that is not the case with OSAS.
Their teaching is: "Just believe and nothing that you do will change your saved condition."
That, IMO, promotes behavior resulting in a failure to follow the 6-P rule. (Prior Planning Prevents P Poor Performance.)

People are saved as "babes in Christ" (1Co 3:1) but need to be brought to maturity (Eph 4:11-16) and to take responsibility to do the good works for which we were created to make our manner of living. (Eph 2:10) By planning to do all that is within one's power to do in obedience to the instructions of scripture, one makes his "calling and election sure." Failure to do so is planning for a big disappointment on judgment day due to failure to perform in accordance with the Lord's commands. (Luk 6:46)

OSAS, because it promotes the false notion that there is nothing anyone can do to forfeit their salvation, fails to promote Christian growth in the good works which will determine one's eternal condition. (John 3:36; 5:28-29; Ro 6:2-10; Mat 25:31-46; 1 Pe 1:17)

It's not that OSAS does not offer choices; it's that it offers a deadly choice (resulting in 2nd death) disguised as a path to eternal life.

If there is nothing I can do to loose my salvation then why bother with all those annoying "Do's and Don'ts"? Just kick back; relax; enjoy the ride; 'cause every little thing's going to be all right.

But what does scripture say?

Mat 25:34-36 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me."

and

Mat 25:41-43 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: ‘for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; ‘I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me."

That's what I meant.

jim

 

[Jim Parker]

The only way the teaching of eternal security can "harm" anyone is when it is taught WRONG. There are very serious consequences for those who rebel against God. It's called discipline, and according to Heb 12 it is PAINFUL, and can lead to a painful physical death.

Paul referenced God's divine discipline in 1 Cor 11:30.

Further, eternal reward is lost for those who are unfaithful. 2 john 8 - Look to yourselves,that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

Good response.
So, how is one saved?
That's 2 John 1:8
To what do you think the word "reward" refers?

The next verse, 2 John 1:9 (RSV) says: Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. So, as John said at John 15, he reiterates here. If you do not abide (live by, remain in) the doctrine, then you do not have Christ.

Jhn 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

In order to "abide" in Christ, one must be "in Christ." Being "in Christ" is a term used to describe the condition of having been saved. John specifically stated that it is possible to cease to be "in Christ" or "saved."

iakov the fool

 

[atpollard]

In order to "abide" in Christ, one must be "in Christ." Being "in Christ" is a term used to describe the condition of having been saved. John specifically stated that it is possible to cease to be "in Christ" or "saved."

Unless he had in mind for "not abide" something like ...

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Where a better analogy might be the wheat and the tares ... both look the same when they start out, but as they grow, their true nature is revealed. [and John 15 is about casting out the false Israel and pruning the true Israel.]

 

[th1b.taylor]

I agree.
However, that is not the case with OSAS.
Their teaching is: "Just believe and nothing that you do will change your saved condition."
That, IMO, promotes behavior resulting in a failure to follow the 6-P rule. (Prior Planning Prevents P Poor Performance.)

People are saved as "babes in Christ" (1Co 3:1) but need to be brought to maturity (Eph 4:11-16) and to take responsibility to do the good works for which we were created to make our manner of living. (Eph 2:10) By planning to do all that is within one's power to do in obedience to the instructions of scripture, one makes his "calling and election sure." Failure to do so is planning for a big disappointment on judgment day due to failure to perform in accordance with the Lord's commands. (Luk 6:46)

OSAS, because it promotes the false notion that there is nothing anyone can do to forfeit their salvation, fails to promote Christian growth in the good works which will determine one's eternal condition. (John 3:36; 5:28-29; Ro 6:2-10; Mat 25:31-46; 1 Pe 1:17)

It's not that OSAS does not offer choices; it's that it offers a deadly choice (resulting in 2nd death) disguised as a path to eternal life.

If there is nothing I can do to loose my salvation then why bother with all those annoying "Do's and Don'ts"? Just kick back; relax; enjoy the ride; 'cause every little thing's going to be all right.

But what does scripture say?

Mat 25:34-36 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me."

and

Mat 25:41-43 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: ‘for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; ‘I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me."

That's what I meant.

jim

Nah, you've got it wrong, I could not give my salvation away, it was eternal safety the moment I turned myself over to God for His purposes and use.

 

[Jim Parker]

Unless he had in mind for "not abide" something like ...

What John had in mind in John 15 was what he wrote in John 15.
There is absolutely no reason to suspect, imagine, or speculate that he meant anything other than what he said.
Jhn 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[fn] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
The term "in me" is the equivalent of "in Christ" which means someone who has eternal life. The only way to have eternal life is to be "in Christ."
Speculation does not make the scriptures say what they do not say.
Attempting to make the scriptures say what they do not say is a perversion of scripture.

1 John 2:19

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Note that here John said "From us" and "to us" and not "from Christ" or "to Christ."
HE is not talking about the same thing as Jesus was talking about at John 15.

Forcing the scripture to say what it does not say is is a perversion of the scripture.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.